<p>New website adds to the often controversial national conversation on the AP and its role in college admissions. "Many schools have dropped AP and lived to tell the tale": the list of high schools includes those that never have had AP programs, have dropped the AP program, as well as high schools that are "re-thinking their relationship with the College Board’s Advanced Placement (AP) program" in the wake of the AP audit. </p>
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The Colleges: Obstacles in college admissions are fewer than many schools fear. Private colleges and universities universally say that they evaluate students in the context of the opportunities available to them, and schools that have dropped AP report few difficulties. Issues with public universities vary from state to state, but none is insurmountable. In California, non-AP courses can be certified as honors courses at the University of California. In other states, equivalent weighting for non-AP courses can generally be obtained. A non-AP curriculum does put greater burden on school counselors to include detailed information about advanced courses on school profiles. Counselors must also devote more effort to coaching advanced students on how to obtain appropriate placement once enrolled at college. Most institutions offer alternative ways for qualified students to place out of basic courses, including institutional placement tests and SAT Subject Test results....</p>
<p>Parents: are the biggest challenge to dropping AP, and schools should think carefully about how to educate them. Often, a multi-year process is necessary. Parents tend to overestimate how often students actually use AP credit to accelerate their college careers. Many schools who investigate the issue find that their graduates rarely do so. Parents also worry about college admissions, and these fears can be allayed by citing the experience of other schools that have moved away from AP, and by hosting college admissions officers to discuss how they evaluate students from schools with non-AP curriculum...
<p>Honestly, I think APs get too much credit. Even if you pass the test, if you didn't have a good teacher no way did you learn the material the equivalent of a college course. Just my opinion. (W00T SENIOR MEMBER STATUS!!!)</p>
<p>From what I've seen at most public high schools, the standard UC-approved honors course is not even close to the rigor of an AP course. For example, honors chem, while a fine course, does not contain the rigor of AP Chem.</p>
<p>Like most things it depends entirely on the shc. D's top day sch did not offer APs (or honors) - - students sat for the AP exams after taking standard bio, chem, calc, etc. At some weaker schs, APs are a scam: students register for the AP class w/ a watered-down curric, get a good grade in a course w/ the AP designation but never take the AP exam.</p>
<p>My AP bio teacher teaches at a local University, first year bio, he repeatedly tells us the AP curriculum is more difficult than what he teaches in University, a 3rd tier University. He said the exams he gives for AP bio are not the same ones he uses at the University level.</p>
<p>APs are the most valuable for students who are at schools that do not have many applicants to the most selective colleges. If such students want to apply to such colleges, the senior year AP courses will enhance the apps if the school has a good track record in past APs. Any AP tests taken after Junior year would also add to the profile. It is not always easy to "rate" the difficulty of a curriculum from a school that is not on the radar screen of a college. </p>
<p>For those kid who have such aspirations in schools without AP courses, high scores on the SAT2 as well as on the SAT1 becomes important.</p>
<p>A number of top prep schools have dropped AP designation for their courses, without any impact on selective schools' admissions. Such schools already have the reputation and track record of turning out well prepared students.</p>
<p>Offering other types of advanced work instead of AP may work for a few highly respected private schools, but in a typical public school, a lack of APs means a lack of opportunities for advanced work.</p>
<p>I agree that the value of AP courses in college admissions is over hyped. In order to teach AP courses at an intensive college level it essentially limits the number of AP courses a student can take to 6 total, 3 jr year and 3 sr year.</p>
<p>Our district has not seen any admissions issues with this policy and our student do far better than average on the AP tests. </p>
<p>But the biggest benefit is that by de-emphasizing rigorous AP classes our students seem less stressed than other neighborhood districts if reported alcohol/drug use/suicide incidents are used as a measure. And more subjectively, our students do not seem to operate in such a cut throat cometitive environment as some other districts. It was relatively collegial while my son was attending with the exception of 2 or 3 students.</p>
<p>It's more that a little disingenuous to point at Scarsdale (a highly respected "public") and Fieldston and say "they don't need AP's so neither does anyone else"</p>
<p>Jeez - the complaint at Scarsdale was that the AP curriculum wasn't rigorous enough and it was hamstringing the staff. It's not like the kids at Scarsdale won't be taking the AP exams - their courses just won't have the "AP" designation.</p>
<p>I'm with cptofthehouse. We're from a very low population state, geographically isolated, with relatively few selective school applicants, and infrequent visits from reps who could get us on their admissions office's radar. The quickest way to communicate the rigor of our high school has been AP classes taken, and subsequent AP scores. Many kids from our school have no intention of taking college credit for the courses, but do want to compete for spots in selective schools.</p>
<p>In some parts of the country, APs are still something of a novelty, as opposed to something everyone does, and they're considered the best opportunity for advanced material. I came from a part of the country like that. Good public magnet school with a good reputation, but still a state considered backwards and uneducated and poor by most of the country. The numerous APs that my school offered were a big part of how it could offer an education on par with the best schools in the country, and were my best opportunity for learning advanced material, and I damn well took them. More of them than anyone else. I was an AP State Scholar two years in a row. Not because I wanted to look good for college admissions, but because I wanted to LEARN. In a few cases, there was an alternative that I thought was better than another AP, and I took those too.</p>
<p>Those who are privileged enough to live in parts of the country which are considered strong in education and where everyone in a half-decent school takes a million APs, should consider the position of those who aren't. Getting rid of APs, while it might relieve a little pressure on them to keep up with the Joneses, would deprive others of an excellent opportunity that they don't have elsewhere. Of course, on the other side of the coin, college admissions should understand the difference between a kid who takes five APs or other college-level courses in an environment where the average student takes seven, and a kid who takes five of them in an environment where the average student takes zero.</p>
<p>The other piece of advice I would give to kids who are in a schol that does not offer AP or other courses of great rigor, is to take some college or well known precollege courses. This shows how the student can perform among well prepared kids. That with some extra SAT2s showing some level of mastery of the subjects on a national basis gives the colleges more info than just the transcript and SAT1 scores.</p>
<p>My D attends a school such as the one cptofthehouse describes. Only one AP course was available to her, US History. As a senior she is taking four courses -- French V, Calculus, Anatomy & Physiology and Environmental Science -- that are SUNY accredited courses. IF she and we had wanted to, we could have registered her with SUNY Albany and the local community college and she would have received college credit for them. We did not do this because she is not applying to any of the SUNYs and it is unlikely the credits would be transferable to any of the colleges she has applied to. </p>
<p>Unfortunately, non of these courses carries an "Honors" designation because too few students are taking these classes to designate one class a "regular" class and the other "Honors." This means that the classes will be weighted the same as "Introduction to Theater" -- which she is also taking -- or other less academically challenging courses. </p>
<p>Hopefully college admissions officers will be able to understand the rigor of her senior year schedule, although I see nothing on the school's "profile" that would be helpful to admissions offices that don't regularly see applicants from her school.</p>
<p>In my D's case it would be helpful IMO if some of these courses carried the AP designation rather than the SUNY seal of approval. On the other hand many of her classmates plan to attend a SUNY and the system works very well for them. Sure, she could always take the appropriate AP exams anyway, but admission decisions will have been made before the exams so what is the point?</p>
<p>Hudsonvalley, you state that it is "unlikely" that the college credit from the SUNY dual enrollment classes would be transferable to any of the colleges your D has in mind. Did you check this out, or are you making an assumption?</p>
<p>D's NJ H.S. has a dual enrollment arrangement with Farleigh Dickenson U. I was pleasantly surprised with the colleges that had accepted these credits in the past. It was a huge list that included elite schools that are always highly regarded, such as the ivy league, NYU, top LACs, etc. Nothing is guaranteed, but FDU's program coordinator told us that 90% of the nation's colleges accept the credits.</p>
<p>StickerShock -- We did check this out with 3 of her "most-likely-to-attends". Would have been nice if it had been possible. The difference between the cost of a SUNY credit hours and that of the schools she is interested in is enough to induce, pardon the expression, sticker shock.</p>
<p>My screen name was chosen for just that reason -- the shock of college costs. Too bad SUNY isn't more widely accepted. I was quite surprised that for $200, D's course would be accepted at Harvard, Notre Dame, Duke, Georgetown, Vandy, Cornell, and tons of great schools. (She's taking an evening course at a local state U and the cost is $1000 -- still MUCH cheaper than the schools mentioned, but it's five times the price for the same three credit weight she earns with the FDU course & with FDU, I don't have to drive her anywhere special. It's just part of her high school day.) The FDU Dean stated that an example of a college that would not accept the credit was Antioch. It seems that the more highly regarded schools are more willing to accept credit than the struggling schools. There appears to be much more oversight of the courses & high school instructors from FDU than there is from the College Board with APs.</p>
<p>The schools in question in my daughter's case are all highly regarded LACs. I wonder if we'd have gotten the same answer if my D was taking these courses from professors AT the college rather than from high school teachers at her high school?</p>
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Hudsonvalley, you state that it is "unlikely" that the college credit from the SUNY dual enrollment classes would be transferable to any of the colleges your D has in mind. Did you check this out, or are you making an assumption?
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<p>Glad you checked. I would encourage everybody not to assume, but to check it out--you may be surprised.</p>
<p>Although things may have changed in the last hundred years, I was able to transfer a few credits that I took in HS at the local college to my (top-20) University. I didn't expect it, expecially since they were from a couple of drafting courses and a Spanish study tour! It was a few extra credits that helped me get a BS/MS in 4 years.</p>
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It was a few extra credits that helped me get a BS/MS in 4 years.
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That's great, Dad. I remember back in my college days, there was no limit to the # of courses you could take each semester. The tuition was the same (about $300 per semester at NJIT & Rutgers -- hard to believe!) Also, graduate level courses could be taken with no additional cost, provided prerequisites were met. I wonder how creative & flexible my kids' options will be. I suspect those great cost savings approaches have been largely shut down.</p>