<p>Okay... a couple of you are reading judgment into my post about student elections. I have no beef with Greek organizations...though they were not popular at my university, I managed to marry a member from another university...;)</p>
<p>The effect I describe is very true at some schools, where IFC and Panhellenic do act in concert to put agreed-upon candidates into office. Just a fact of life. BUT, it's a free country and it is their right to do so. I merely made the observation that there may be a perception of popularity where there actually is none. </p>
<p>Also, it's equally stereotypical to paint a picture where if not for Greeks, volunteerism would be nonexistent. Many of the most socially aware and community-minded schools are not dominated by a Greek social system and those students accomplish great things. Rice University is one school near and dear to my heart which comes to mind.</p>
<p>I commend Greek organizations for all they accomplish, but draw the line at the notion they 'invented the wheel'.</p>
<p>"Also, it's equally stereotypical to paint a picture where if not for Greeks"</p>
<p>true, but you sorta failed previously to give any credit to the greek kids for what they actually do. They were described as a hinderance to a school, when actually most of them are the 5% of the population that do without needing a paycheck for doing. </p>
<p>Yes, the general student body also has some of those doers as well, but not enough usually to carry the day. </p>
<p>Maybe the greeks do with their members what I used to do with our higher level coaches... "involuntary volunteers". My club (premere) coaches and their teams did 85% of our field work and volunteer jobs during fund raisers. In turn they received the nicer fields and times for practice. I'm sure not every greek kid wants to do all these things the greek organizations do, but maybe there's enough leverage to nudge them along.</p>
<p>I'd like to see where I posted anything negative about Greek organizations, 'hindrance' or the like, Opie. I only spoke to a perhaps misleading perception of popularity with respect to student government or judiciary....something not dissimilar to what we observe in high school with regard to the same (which to be honest, is why student government positions in high school are not as well regarded as other ecs by college admissions counselors.) </p>
<p>And again, where do you get your facts about exactly WHO carries the day where?</p>
<p>It's true that the reputation of the Greek system varies greatly between each school you go to. But there are usually more Greek's willing to help run the school activities than non-Greeks. Either it's for the brother's genuine concern for the wellbeing of the fraternity or, more cases than not, its because they're required by the chapter to do philanthropy, they're trying to get more girls to show up at parties, or something else trying to further their chapter's image. But it's not like we're dragging ourselves to do these things, we do them with brothers, people we actually have something in common with. Not some random kid who sits in his dorm all day (just an example) and decided he needed to put something extra on his resume for grad school.</p>
<p>My chapter has about 4 or 5 guys, real gung-ho school spirit, genuinely want to further the well being of the school kinda guys. So they sign up to help on the homecoming committee. When they ask for 15-20 guys to help them out setting up the parade, we're not going to leave them high and dry. Thats another way so many Greeks end up in all this.</p>
<p>ldmom- Nope, just live in Baltimore. I actually attend college out-of-state. There is no way I'd join a northern fraternity.</p>
<p>I don't understand why if it were not for Greeks no volunteering would get done. Don't other campuses have service organizations like Harvard's Phillips Brooks House? 72 programs, 1800+ volunteers. I'm not particularly pro or anti Greek. CMU is 15% Greek I believe, and last spring they didn't have enough kids running for their elections - Greeks or non Greeks.</p>
<p>Fraternities and Sororities have always been furthest from my mind when we looked for colleges. My older two favored schools that disallowed them.</p>
<p>Now, suddenly, the subject is important in our household because of Youngest Kid. Of all things, he was approached by an unofficial fraternity with a national name. They've been trying to get a local chapter approved, but fell short of some requirements so it only exists unofficially there, but they're hopeful and will continue trying. Meanwhile, there's a dues charged, and it overlaps with his major area so there are academic overlaps aplenty. It's a Jewish fraternity, and our only reservation about this university was how few Jewish kids attend.</p>
<p>The university has 30 percent joining Greek places on campus, so this would be consistent with what's going on around him, although it's also consistent to not join anything, obviously. </p>
<p>So I'm suddenly open to let him rush it. I just don't know what are the right questions to have him ask of them, so he can ask and go in with open eyes. Since some writers here have experience I don't on this topic...I ask:</p>
<p>If you could arm a freshman neophyte with a good set of questions, what would those be?</p>
<p>I read about the fraternity on the website, and see its charitable causes. Seems to me it's all about a social group, leadership within that group, bonding, allegience and so on. I would have first hoped he'd join the ACLU or something rather than this, but he's on the scene, so it's his call.</p>
<p>Mathmom- All depends on where you go. From my experience, big public universities, mainly in the South and Midwest have the strongest influences. Hence, why I'd never pledge a Northern fraternity.</p>
<p>I would just remind him to make sure he's not going to get "hazed" (which probably he's not) or be persuaded to do anything he does not want to or feel comfortable doing. When my son was contemplating a fraternity, my dad (his grandpa) sat down with him over a weekend and gave him the look, and said, "now just make sure you never do anything to disrespect yourself or the family, you understand that, right?". </p>
<p>If it's a fraternity that's starting up, that's probably "best case" for safety. They're going to be on their best behavior; they are going to be trying to do everything possible to entice more kids to join (so hazing people is not a smart idea); they are going to do everything possible to build their reputation. </p>
<p>I believe, personally, that one of the safest "established" fraternities to join, from a behavioral standpoint, is one that's on probation, suspended, or in "colony" status, for the same reasons.</p>
<p>3tuitions, I'd be slightly concerned about their status. Get that nailed down and find out exactly what they are doing. Local organizations (one's without the oversight provided by a national organization) tend to be short lived (I think the average lifespan is about 15 years) and because they have no bylaws/constitution/regulations from a body with disciplinary powers, also tend to be the most likely to haze and haze hard. Good examples of this are the fraternity and sorority that were featured on MTV back in 2002 or 2003 - I believe they were actually at UBuffalo.</p>
<p>Joining a colony will be a lot of work, and it will offer a different experience than joining an established chapter. Your son needs to recognize the difference in expectations, and decide which is better for him. Some people are great at getting things started and setting traditions for a new organization. Other people flourish in an environment that's more polished and serves as sort of a safe home base from which to branch out from. It's not that guys can't flourish in either, just that he may have a very distinct preference. </p>
<p>The biggest thing I believe you can point to in determining where a chapter's intentions lay is to find out their GPA relative to the rest of the campuses'. Chapters succeeding academically above the campus average are going to encourage scholarship and be beneficial to their members. This is especially true if they have systems in place to reward academic achievement. That doesn't mean go out and find the house with the highest gpa and pledge them, as personalities need to match. But GPA is a good place to start.</p>
<p>Another question.....(hypothetical) What if S accepts a bid from one fraternity and then decides he has made a mistake and thinks another one would have been a better choice? What to do then?</p>
<p>First off, stress to him that he should make the right choice the first time, lol. It'll be easier on him and on the Fraternity. Pledges can drop from the pledge class at any time over the course of pledgeship. And then they are free to accept bids anywhere else during the spring or next fall. </p>
<p>One of my best friends actually did that. Pledged somewhere that seemed really cool, but things changed...he dropped, and now he's pledging all over again (bleh) this semester.</p>
<p>I'll talk with him over this weekend. I have a feeling the only reason he's considering the fraternity is because it's Jewish, and he is too, so it's his way to find other kids in a minority group situation. </p>
<p>I'm not sure he's thinking comparatively among the fraternities. He wouldn't have even thought twice about any fraternity had not this one group contacted him. So perhaps it's a case of THIS one particular situation, or none at all (general civilian status, if I'm getting the terms correctly :)</p>
<p>Then again, I might discover after talking with him that it caught his interest enough and he's hearing from other directions about established chapters (5 others), so might be considering them as alternatives. The university website emphasizes their charitable and civic relationship to the school. Again, it's all new to me. </p>
<p>Your comments are all quite helpful to us, in particular the issues of overworking to establish a new colony, academic standards, and hazing as 3 key areas for him (not me) to ask about in his new setting. Thank you all very, very much.</p>
<p>With sororities at my school, it seems like hazing is not allowed. Even alcohol at some are not allowed. Most wonderfully, at both frats and sororities, it's 4k or less a year to be in one.</p>