Genuine Answer -- Do I still have a shot at Ivies/Ivies+?

[tsad]

Hello everyone,

New CC poster here. The second semester of my junior year just ended and I will most likely receive two Bs (one B+ in English and one B in Calculus). I am taking the most rigorous course load offered by my school (competitive public) and have otherwise gotten straight As since freshman year. Based on my demographic (asian male applying for STEM/engineering), I was wondering if my chances at Ivies has lowered by any substantial amount. For extra context, I have high (75% percentile for Ivies) SAT/ACT scores and will qualify for national merit.

Thank you

[compmom]

First why do you want Ivies? They are all different. And for engineering, there may be better choices, depending on the particular schools you have in mind.

It is impossible to say what your chances are other than low like everyone else. Admissions are holistic and not only about grades and scores. Those may help you meet a benchmark but after that it is usually about other things.

I hope you will learn about all the other excellent schools: look at the “little Ivies” and Colleges that Change Lives (you can google both). And for engineering, state universities are often great options.

Make sure you have schools that are safe in terms of admission.

[tsbna44]

Of course you have a shot.

But you could be a 4.0 and have a 1600 SAT and get turned down. For context, I’m looking at the Harvard CDS, and 28% don’t have a 4.0. At Penn, 48% don’t have a 4.0. I’ll assume this is unweighted but I don’t know.

But like anyone, you need a balanced list - and if you are NMF, you can have wonderful opportunities financially.

The bottom line is - the world isn’t perfect, and you needn’t be either. You all put waaaaay too much pressure on yourself.

Perfection rarely exists in life - and life would be boring if it did exist.

Good luck.

[MWolf]

First, as other have written - Ivies are not the best colleges for engineering, except Cornell.

Second,

@tsad

I was wondering if my chances at Ivies has lowered by any substantial amount.

More than 95% of the unhooked applicants to these colleges are rejected, so even cutting admission chances in half just makes that 97.5%.

Seriously, though, what do you want from a college?

“An Ivy” is just an athletic conferences for a certain subset of private colleges with low acceptance rates. It does not describe anything else about these colleges. They vary a lot in size, majors that are offered, rural versus urban, etc.

Why do you you want to attend “an Ivy”, versus “a Big 10”, or an “Atlantic Coast”?

In my experience, most student who post here “what are my chances for an Ivy?” have not actually thought about attending college, but mostly about being accepted to a college, specifically a college with high “prestige”.

That is not a good way top go about succeeding during and after college. That’s also not a good way to think about your high school career.

High school should be about getting the most out of high school in terms of education, both academic and socially. That includes being well prepared for college. Not “be accepted to the most prestigious college possible”, but “attend the colleges that is best for the student, and being a prepared as possible for that college”. College is about getting the most out of college in terms of education,professional preparation, and yes, social education. It is about the entire four years, not about the few minutes of finding out that you have been accepted to this or that college, nor about the few months that you tell your friends, family,and family friends about the acceptance/s.

So again, ask yourself:

What do I need from a college?
What would I like from a college?
What do I want to do after college?
Which colleges will be the best for these?

And stop focussing on whether two or four Bs will ruin your chances at being accepted to an Ivy.

[tsad]

I should’ve made this more clear in my post–I wasn’t necessarily referring to just Ivies (Yale, Princeton, etc.) but more so the “top” schools (hence the Ivy+) like Duke, Berkeley, or Stanford. But yeah, I know I’m probably stressing myself too much about it but it’s hard not to feel like years of effort were wasted just for a few weeks of an academic downswing, and I guess I’m trying to see how bad that hurt my chances. I’ll look into to other schools, but because of cost I’m basically constrained to UCs (which I’ve heard prioritize GPA) and “prestigious” privates.

[CFP]

To answer your question, for T20 schools, unless you are low income or have extraordinary EC’s, your chances are extremely low.

Asian male STEM kids are overrepresented at these schools. T20 schools have “institutional priorities”.

You’ll probably have other great choices. Expand your search.

[DadOfJerseyGirl]

@tsad

I wasn’t necessarily referring to just Ivies (Yale, Princeton, etc.) but more so the “top” schools (hence the Ivy+) like Duke, Berkeley, or Stanford.

So, it looks like you’re defining “top” schools as those that are ranked high on USNWR’s “best national colleges” list (regardless of their strength in engineering), instead of “top engineering schools”.

As others have pointed out above, the “Ivy+” schools aren’t necessarily the best engineering schools. In fact, in most cases they are not. Employers know where the strongest graduates come from.

What field of engineering are you interested in? What’s your budget, and home state?

[tsbna44]

You want to be an engineer ? Depending on the type, the top schools aren’t necessarily the top schools. And where you go will matter less if the school is ABET accredited.

But a Purdue is going to better than Ivy in most cases. Not an easy get but certainly achievable. The salaries coming out of Rose Hulman are nothing short of amazing.

Depending on the discipline you want - if it’s chemistry, a not so difficult UDEL or UMN blows away the top schools.

If it’s MechE, it can be most anywhere. Ga Tech blows away the schools you listed but guess what - their students will intern side by side with Alabama, Auburn, Houston etc. and have every opportunity to outperform them - my kid did at Alabama where he was invited back to his internship the next year but his two ga tech roomies weren’t.

There’s the tippy top of engineering, then the near elite, and then maybe a hundred plus really great programs that deliver sometimes as well as the elites. What is important in some of the disciplines is ABET accreditation, not the US News ranking.

So you haven’t hurt anything. You’ve helped yourself. Based on pure merit awesome schools like Alabama, UAH, Arizona, Iowa State, Kansas and more will throw crazy money at you.

But it gets better. If you are national merit as you say, you can go to U Tulsa free. Alabama for four years of free tuition and housing plus $3500 a year.

Schools like Maine, UTD, USC, Fordham and others have strong NM programs. And so many more.

So if you are budget constrained - your academics have you the golden ticket. Your NMF will multiply that golden ticket.

You can still apply to top schools that provide need based aid - a UVA or the privates like Duke, Cornell. But have your folks fill out their net price calculators to see if the schools say you have need. If they don’t and you can’t afford $350k, you saved time by not applying.

So the only thing wasted is your perspective.

Your accomplishments would be the envy of most every kid…and especially the parents footing the bill …of most everyone in America.

Engineering - the brand name - honestly short of a few - not critically important.

One more thing to OP - you saysUCs prioritize GPA.

To be clear, the UCS and CSUs are test blind - so your test has no factor. U of Washington is also test blind.

Schools that will require tests are the Florida publics (UF is very well thought of), Purdue, UGA and I’m sure there’s more (like Georgetown but since you’re engineering you’re not applying there).

Best of luck but you have a wonderful situation and I think you don’t fully understand the engineering landscape - so relax, you’re going to do great!!! But - you also want to ensure you fully understand calculus - so the grade is no worry but your grasp of the material is pertinent to be successful. 40-60% of engineering students nationally (so not just top schools but all schools) don’t finish in engineering - depending on the study one is looking at.

[ucbalumnus]

@tsad

I’ll look into to other schools, but because of cost I’m basically constrained to UCs (which I’ve heard prioritize GPA) and “prestigious” privates.

Would you be including UCM and UCR in your UC application list?

But there is likely a wider range of affordable colleges with engineering majors, including CSUs and colleges offering large merit scholarships.

[Gumbymom]

@tsad

I’ll look into to other schools, but because of cost I’m basically constrained to UCs (which I’ve heard prioritize GPA) and “prestigious” privates.

UC’s use 13 areas of criteria for their application review and a few B’s will not take out of the running for any of the UC’s for Engineering even though they are GPA focused.

https://admission.universityofcalifornia.edu/how-to-apply/applying-as-a-freshman/how-applications-are-reviewed.html

You need to calculate your 3 UC GPA’s using this calculator: GPA Calculator for the University of California – RogerHub

Below are the UC admit rates which are not major specific. For Engineering, the admit rates will be much more competitive but have you an idea of which Engineering you will be applying?

2022 Admit rates based on the Capped weighted UC GPA.

Campus	4.00+	3.70-3.99	3.30-3.69	3.00-3.29
Berkeley	17%	3%	1%	0%
Davis	58%	20%	5%	2%
Irvine	35%	10%	3%	0%
Los Angeles	13%	2%	1%	0%
Merced	97%	97%	95%	85%
Riverside	95%	83%	42%	17%
San Diego	37%	8%	1%	0%
Santa Barbara	41%	8%	3%	0%
Santa Cruz	69%	45%	16%	4%

As stated by @ucbalumnus, Cal states are also a great option for Engineering but they are even more GPA focused since they do not consider PIQ’s (essays) or EC’s.

An Engineering degree is highly marketable so you do not need to attend a top school to be successful post grad.

Best of luck.

[sgopal2]

Two B’s aren’t going to kill your chances. But as others have pointed out, even a 4.0/1600 won’t make things much easier.

Getting into Ivies/T20 is more about your ‘story’ and what you bring to the table. Having high GPA and test scores are just an entry ticket to the lottery.

[thumper1]

If you don’t get accepted to an Ivy or other tippy top school, you will never know why.

I would strongly suggest you build your list from the bottom up. Find a couple of just about sure things for admission, that are affordable, that you would be happy to attend. Plenty of options for engineering.

Then build your list UP from there.

What is your annual budget for college costs?

[coolguy40]

Admission to those colleges are absurdly subjective, so it’s impossible to tell. Plus if you’re doing engineering, there are better schools out there than ivys. Take your time and come up with a healthy list of affordable reach, target, and safety schools. I’m a big believer in scholarships too. No debt is always better than lots of debt.

[happy1]

Sure you have a chance. I’d suggest you pick out a few elite schools that fit your academic interests, preferred environment etc. and craft thoughtful applications.

But understand that the top schools, with single digit acceptance rates, must be considered reaches for any unhooked applicant. There are simply more well qualified candidates than spots available.

Do the research and create a well balanced application list with reach, match, and safety schools that appear affordable and that you would be excited to attend.

[prezbucky]

You can form a list of Reach, Match, and Safety schools that are all ABET-accredited – I suggest you do that.

In forming that list:

• Unless money is no object, run the NPC to reasonably ascertain whether the school will be affordable, keeping in mind that there may be substantial merit awards at some schools.
• Choose schools based on “fit” variables that are important to you. This could include things like location, environment, campus size/student population, Greek/Sports/Social vibe, and (of course) available majors and curriculum.

The good news is, an enormous variety of schools offer ABET-accredited engineering programs. If you choose according to affordability and fit, you’ll be able to identify 10-15 that suit you very well.

[OnwardUpwardForever]

Agreed!

On the one hand, students at top national universities are not perfect. They are not always valedictorians or voted the most likely to succeed. Sometimes they are driven by their parents and not by their dreams.

On the other hand, students who easily get accepted to such schools may be miserable there and leave college early, disillusioned about “college” and themselves.

Those top colleges, such as MIT and Harvard, are not the best for most students. Even if you get in, is that college right for you? What kind of life will you have during those four (or more) years? Will you struggle with imposter syndrome the whole time or blend in and be a natural there?

Get some inside information and look at less famous options before making it your goal. Look for the best fit for you, not the most prestigious name. Ivy grads can fail in their careers and be miserable, and grads of obscure colleges can achieve great success and happiness.

Do you have a chance? Maybe, but is it best for you, maybe not.

I never discourage my students from applying to a top national university, but I strongly encourage them to apply to some schools that are great matches for their personalities, abilities, goals, and financial resources.

[OnwardUpwardForever]

Ivies want everything, but they don’t require straight A’s. Some of my son’s Caltech classmates had one or more C’s on their transcripts.

[tsad]

Thank you for the advice, I am currently compiling a list with schools like CWRU and some WUE schools (lower tuition) to balance it out. I’ve seen quite a few comments saying I still have a chance – do you think any eyebrows will be raised at a sole B- in Math at schools like Stanford? (ie, do I pass the gpa “screening round”).

[tsbna44]

CWRU is a big reach - and you must demonstrate a lot of interest.

Will you be an auto reject at Stanford. No. But will you be a reject and Stanford and CWRU.

Likely.

But again you need a safety that you’d love to attend and can afford. After that where you apply doesn’t matter.

Do you have a budget ? Have you run net price calculators to see if a school will make that budget ?

If lower tuition matters, give us the budget and we’ll give you solid schools. But note a school like Stanford will not give you merit so run the NPC to see if you could even afford it.

What major - you just say stem / engineering.

You need a budget before you look at any schools. And then you need to check some private schools to see if you have need as they say.

The issue with WUE is that you are so name hungry and the WUE schools don’t have that.

You need to get past that.