<p>thesiren, why don't you post your dad's email address and let us talk to him. :) or send him the link to this thread. Seriously. I'm sure you're dad is a very intelligent and sensible man. After all, he raised you. Deep down he knows that you will do what is right for you. Tell him what you have told us. He might bluster and wig a bit, but stay calm and committed. He will hear you and start talking himself into what it is that you want. Your list and his list have a few great schools in common already don't they? Maybe you could make a deal that you'll apply to some of "his" common app schools if they don't require a bunch of extra work. Just to "keep your options open".
Anyway, it will be fine. Stay committed to what you want.</p>
<p>Siren, though you haven't posted your profile, I can get a pretty good guess, extrapolated from the schools your Dad wants you to apply to and, of all things, the way you write your posts.</p>
<p>siren, you are not alone. Many applicants have immigrant parents who place too much emphasis on those prestigious schools, and those schools alone. Your father's fears for you, may be, in fact, a version of his immigrant anxieties. </p>
<p>Read this archived thread for laughs....<a href="http://www.collegeconfidential.com/discus/%5B/url%5D">http://www.collegeconfidential.com/discus/</a></p>
<p>then search for: College Discussion Forums: College Admissions: March 2004 Archive: Asian Parents -_-' ~~~!!!! </p>
<p>No matter how successful, immmigration is a profoundly difficult task. It is very difficult to 'belong' to the host culture in the way that you belong to your homeland. I've been an immigrant and I know the unsettled feelings too well. Don't take his comments too personally.</p>
<p>Try to put his extreme behavior into the "Culture Shock" bin and make your decisions based on what is best for you. Though he is a professional in the field, your understanding of American culture is probably the more accurate one.</p>
<p>You are reformed, TheDad--but I NEVER meant to suggest that you had changed your opinions! Hah!</p>
<p>Cheers, your implication is off base. I've changed my opinions on many things over time. In respect to this board, I'm one of the religious converts from research unis to LAC's and that was less than three years ago. I was dubious about my D being a Math major...I was wrong. (Though she's still not prototypical.) In other arenas, in December 12/00 I thought that Bush wouldn't be too bad. </p>
<p>One's opinions shouldn't freeze until one is dead.</p>
<p>I didn't vote for him, but I wished him well. Didn't do much good, did it?</p>
<p>Never sugggested you were a stick in the mud, TheDad. Just figured you hadn't changed your opinion on USC, (fair enough) just your method of critique.</p>
<p>I wish I could link it here but it's too old and pay only...but the Wall Street Journal ran a front page article about parents making incredible sacrifices to send their kids to Ivy feeder schools, with no guarantee of successful admission to an Ivy school. The subject of the article was a child of Korean immigrants who owned a dry cleaning store. They had made an incredible financial commitment to send him to Groton (I think--am cruising on memory here), where he had worked hard and done well. The problem was that he had not been admitted to an Ivy and his mother, in the WSJ, described her disappointment in him! He had been accepted and was going to attend Johns Hopkins and his parents viewed him as some kind of failure.</p>
<p>It was so sad--here was this great kid who had worked so hard to live up to his parents' expectations and they viewed him as some kind of failure even though he was going off to Johns Hopkins.</p>
<p>So cut your dad some slack because he is viewing this from his perspective, and understand that at the time you need to decide he may need to let go of some of his dreams for you and that will be difficult for him.</p>
<p>Cheers: oh. Okay. If you are well, then I am well, and it is well.</p>
<p>I remember that article. Personally, I would not be inclined to cut slack to someone who viewed me as a failure because I "only" got into JHU.</p>
<p>Nor can I admire someone who apparently views a child simply or primarily as a vehicle for his own dreams--and structures the child's life acordingly.</p>
<p>In that situation, I don't see them as "dreams for you [the child]": I see them as dreams for himself.</p>
<p>In fact, I felt that one point of that article was that the parents were the true "failures", by sending the child to Groton. Instead of standing out at home in some way, the child became--in the eyes of AdComs--a standard overachiever.</p>
<p>Why didn't you like Yale (yes, I'm a Yalie). It has great diversity, passionate students, great arts pogram, lots of restaurants, etc around (so you can easily get off campus) and NY is an easy train ride away for the weekends.
Okay, if you don't like it, don't bother, but why not compromise with your dad and apply to maybe two of the really top schools on his list - not all of them. You may feel very differently when your acceptances come in and you actually go and do overnights at all these schools. Visiting them in the summer is the worst - I took my D to visit Tufts and there was no one on the campus but our tour group.</p>
<p>To YoMama: Yeah, my dad is a sensible and intelligent man, and I'm pretty sure that he will discover CC in the next few months, because he has stumbled across the site, but he doesn't know anything about the message boards, I'll let him discover this hidden gem on his own . :) . I started dance late, because my dad couldn't afford to pay for the lessons back when most girls began taking dance. I decided to do basketball and track, and I was good, but I didn't enjoy it. I brought up the idea of doing dance after I had discovered a dance studio in my neighborhood, and it took him two years for me to convince him about dance and for him to let go of his dreams of me being a possible recruited athlete. Now my dad is my biggest supporter in dance. The scenario that you painted out about my dad wigging out, but eventually hearing what I truly want, kind of reminded me of when I was first beginning dance. Hopefully, it wouldn't take him as long to accept my choice of schools as he did with my choice to dance, because the time is rolling around. </p>
<p>TheDad: I haven't really posted my academic profile, because I haven't officially taken any of the SATs (even though I do have an idea of what I might get on the real thing, because I have taken lots of practice tests and have been scoring around the same score each time). I don't believe in the whole "what are my chances" thing, because while some people may have better chances statistically than other people, at the end of the day a person does not have a chance at all if they do not even bother applying to the school. If you really want me to, I can post up a profile, but I don't want it to resort to an Affirmative Action debate (as I have seen countless of times on this board, htough not on the Parent's Forum section). Hopefully, you meant that as a compliment about the way I write my posts.</p>
<p>To cheers: My dad has been in the US. since he was 18; he has traveled to so many places, and my dad has moved our family to so many states that I would think that he would be all "culture shocked" out. </p>
<p>To Mombot and Adad: I didn't get a chance to read that story when it came out. That story sounds sad. The kid got into a good school, but the parents still view him as a failure because he was rejected from an ivy. My heart goes out to him, hopefully his parents saw what a great kid he was before any chance of mending their relationship with him was destroyed. No doubt that he probably started to distance himself from his parents once he got to college or will become fed up with trying to meet their expections if he hasn't already.</p>
<p>To catherine: I liked Rice, even though I visited around the same time as Yale, but you are right...the timing of the year is very crucial when trying to determine the feel of a campus. My dad is an "all or nothing" type of person, compromising works...up to a certain point. No need to worry, I will be visiting Yale and a whole other bunch of schools throughout the year (most schools Spring Break doesn't fall within my Spring Break) and I will form new opinions about different schools in the upcoming months.</p>
<p>Ah yes, siren, my husband moved around to a dozen states as his fatehr climbed the corporate economic ladder. Interestingly, they changed economic classes with every move. That was a culture shock in itself, some of which the family never quite adjusted to.</p>
<p>I have heaps of immigrant friends in the US, accomplished professors and business people who have been citizens for decades. Surprisingly, all of them still have remnants of culture shock, especially where their children or perceived slights are concerned. Do you know what they said to me when I left the US? Wait until you live in a place where every time you open your mouth, people know you were not born there.</p>
<p>Sure enough, that bit never goes away. "Nice twang" is the comment I get, even though I am not Southern.</p>
<p>Anyway, I'm glad you survived the dance switch with your dad. Keep that in mind as you come to terms with your school list. It sounds like he loves you to bits.</p>
<p>My parents were forever trying to throw up obstacles to keep me from following my heart to the university and JYA programs of my choice. At the time, I took their objections at face value (Those Mean Parents). In hindsight, I see how their anxieties dictated their behavior.</p>
<p>Thank God I didn't take too much notice of their tears and nashed teeth. When it came time to go to university (architecture school), they had no clue what was best for me. They were better in the future husband category, LOL.</p>
<p>Tip: I did use my grandmother to help me persuade them. That helped.</p>
<p>Stick to your guns, you will end up where you want. You may find it hard to believe, but you are actually in pretty good shape. If your real GC is pushing HYP, then you are essentially assured of admittance to the places you want to attend. Your goal now will be to convince your dad that you should apply to your real choices as safeties. Given the competition for the most selective schools on his list, even very top students are more likely to be denied admission. </p>
<p>Next step: make it very clear to your GC that you do not want to go to HYP and their cousins. This puts them in the bind of not wanting to push you too hard when they know you do not intend to attend if admitted. This destroys the GC's credibility with the college for the future. </p>
<p>From my alumni interviewing, I have met plenty of students who walked in, sat down, and politely told me that they had no interest in attending my alma mater. They were applying at the insistence of their parents. I felt sorry for wasting their time making them show up for an interview. I duly passed this information along to the admissions office. These kids were not admitted.</p>
<p>As long as you do a good job with your real applications, you can do some extras to please your dad, if you cannot get him to listen to you. Your Yale essay could well be on the topic of "why I don't want to go to an Ivy" (you may have to create some other essay to show your dad before you file).</p>
<p>With the number of top students who really want to go there, HYP do not have to admit anyone who does not want it. This will at least protect you from having to argue with your dad about where to go when you have an Ivy admit in hand.</p>
<p>for the story of the Groton grad who "only" got into JHU. That was a sad article--not only because his parents couldn't figure out why he "failed," but it seemed that he himself considered that he had failed.</p>
<p>Wonder if he is in medical school now. . .</p>
<p>If your dad is concerned with future earnings ("it's the name on the degree that counts," for instance, makes me think this), perhaps he might be persuaded by the study that shows, no, it isn't. I haven't read the book myself, but on another thread someone said the book Harvard Schmarvard discusses the study. I remember the study being in the news when it first came out as well.</p>
<p>It was a comparison of the earnings of those who attend elite schools versus those who were admitted to elite schools but decided to go elsewhere. There was no difference. In other words, the higher average earnings of those who go to prestige schools is explained by their overall ability. People with the same ability who go elsewhere manage to earn the same amount.</p>
<p>Perhaps your father comes from a place where one's success is highly determined by the college. If so, perhaps knowing this isn't true here might make a difference?</p>
<p>I'm not saying that pricey schools may not be worth it for some reason. But some sort of generalized prestige equals higher earnings equation is not correct.</p>
<p>If you are indeed somehow forced to apply places, it can be rather easy not to be accepted. Interview and then when you are asked "why college x?" answer truthfully. I don't think college x will want you. </p>
<p>Perhaps there is some way of showing him that this many applications will mean you can't spend enough time on any one or will have to cut into your academics or ECs.</p>
<p>I didn't see where you've mentioned the field you are interested in. If you can show your dad how good the whatever program is at the schools you like and the high percentages of students from those schools that get into med/law/grad school or whatever, perhaps he will relent a bit. Find the names of prominent alums, etc.</p>
<p>Or try to find some reasons why you would be happier at certain schools than at others. If he comes to believe you can be both successful and happy with the schools you like, he may come around.</p>
<p>I realize this post is full of "perhaps" and "may" and "might." Sorry I can't give you a surefire solution!</p>
<p>One last thought -- Will your father acquiesce in an ED application and let you choose the school? If you get in, it is a "trophy" of sorts and you are spared all the other applications. Naturally, this won't work if he wouldn't let you pick the school and wants it to be to a school you don't like.</p>
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<p>Personally, I would not be inclined to cut slack to someone who viewed me as a failure because I "only" got into JHU.</p>
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<p>Ordinarily no. I'll go back and re-read the article; as I said it was a long time ago. I had the impression though that these parents weren't living through their son as much as they were trying to secure his future. The problem was that their perspective was limited and they didn't understand that there are many paths to success. </p>
<p>As a parent what you want for your child is always going to be defined by your own experience. I want my children to find the best school for them, but I grew up in a town where genuinely well-meaning parents would not pay for their kids to attend college because they honestly believed their kids would be better off going to work right out of high school. College was not a path to a better future; it was a path to dirty filthy hippiedom. They did not perceive any lasting value in a college education because it was so foreign to their experience, and going to work in the factory would assure their children a comfortable and secure future. </p>
<p>There are parents out there who want their kids to attend specific schools because they view their children as extensions of themselves, but there are also well meaning parents who are guiding their kids in the best way they know how but that way may be misguided because of the parents' particular experience.</p>
<p>Don't know if that makes sense or not...but that's why I would cut this particular dad some slack. Given his acceptance of Siren's dance I think he'll do the right thing for his daughter in the end, but it will be a journey where she'll need to push him and guide him.</p>
<p>To cheers: I only have a grandfather in Africa, and although he is supportive of whatever career I want to do, he wasn't really active in my dad's college admissions process, and I know that he wouldn't really concern himself with mine, unless I decided to go to college in Africa.</p>
<p>DianeR: Yeah, my dad does come from a place where even the high school one goes to determines a person's success. Thank you for your advice! Don't worry, I took a lot out of your post, because like you said in this situation there is no surefire solution. My dad wants me to apply SCEA to one of the HYPS, the only problem is that I want to apply ID (a form or EA) to Rice, therefore I would not be able to apply to SCEA. Based on all the schools on my list and on my "maybe" list, I just don't feel comfortable at this point applying ED to any of them, because I would like to compare the financial aid packages and have some options. My opinions on certain colleges after the visits could change drastically by the time May 1st of next year comes around.</p>
<p>To Mombot:I'm willing to push him and guide him, but I've found that most people do not want to be pushed or guided if they do not want to be. My dad is doing the prestige angle on my brother, who is only thirteen years old, in a very clever way. My bro. plays basketball and will probably get recruited to some school if he gains some height. So my dad is pushing schools like Duke, Stanford, UT-Austin, UNC-Chapel Hill, and etc at my bro., because they are prestigious schools that just happen to do well in basketball. My dad knows that the chances of my brother getting accepted HYP are slim (based on my bro.'s academic record so far and him not being a the best test-taker around) , so he's trying a different approach, and in between the NCAA Basketball games and commercials, my brother will probably be taken in by my dad's idea of "going to a prestigious school/"public ivy" is the only way succeed, but on the way to success you can play basketball" philosophy. </p>
<p>Your reasoning does makes sense, because my cousins (who will be graduating the same year as me) are all going through the process, but in a different way because of their parents. One of my cousin's will probably end up going to UIUC (she's in-state), because that is where all her friend are going and where her older sisters went, and her parents are going to give her free reign as usual. The other cousin will either end up at a CC or to a school that can give her a free ride (like her older sister, full ride at UMich-Ann Arbor), because my uncle doesn't really see the value of any education and is not willing to pay at all for it. Parents came from the same country, but have differing philosophies of involvement in the college admissions process and what is best for their own child.</p>
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<blockquote> <p>College was not a path to a better future; it was a path to dirty filthy hippiedom<<</p> </blockquote>
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<p>Boy--this describes my cousin's experience with college!!</p>
<p>To Ellemenope: I was finally able to work the link (computer wasn't really loading correctly yesterday). The mother acted like she was the one the was personally "spurned"; I know that a child's loss affects parents deeply, but to say that he "failed" is not very nice. The kid is cooking three times a week at the campus restaurant for a work-study job WHILE maintaining a 3.5 GPA, that shows drive and initiative on his part. I sure hope his passion was medical school and that he was able to successfully achieve his dreams. This article really does show that a "hook" can be a determining factor in admissions...</p>
<p>Thesiren--I don't know what country your father is from, but if he's a product of the British colonial system or its immediate aftermath then he's more likely to see that your college is going to be fairly deterministic of your future path and that could explain him trying to find the "best possible" track for you and your brother, but using a very rigid tracked approach. Your college will determine what tie you get to wear which will determine which firms talk to you and which clubs you can be eligible for.</p>
<p>It's not our system in the U.S. and I know he deals with our system as his profession but nobody said people are rational abou t their own children. I don't know where he was or when he left, but I can see all kinds of reasons why he might be doing what he's doing. Also in his experience are fathers used to deciding what kids do? You could be dealing with both social and family factors here.</p>