APs are far from the standards of rigor. Most APs are just ancillaries and serve little purpose other than being big money makers for the College Board. APs are certainly not equivalent to corresponding courses at more rigorous colleges. Using the number of APs as evidence of college preparedness is, IMO, unwarranted.
The issues OP’s son face, more likely than not, won’t go away after one semester. CS is not the most difficult major. Freshman discrete math and/or algorithm classes (if those were what he was taking) are not the most challenging. College burnouts are not that uncommon. If you used up all your energies in HS with all the AP courses and ECs trying to get into a top college with no ability to kick up a notch or two or three, you’re a candidate for burnout.
“Using the number of APs as evidence of college preparedness is, IMO, unwarranted.”
Adcoms are human so of course they’re going to make mistakes, a lot of them, if doctors who are the most trained professionals in the world make the right decision 7-8 out of 10 times, adcoms are probably going to get 6 or 7 right out of the ten they see. That being said, if adcoms know that APs have a good (if not excellent) correlation with freshman year success, it’s not unreasonable to use that metric.
“And when one FINALLY gets to start taking the courses they came to college to attend, it’s easy to slip into that mindset. At last! Courses in my major! Let me dive in! It’s hard, but it’s FUN!”
I think the classes in the major are what’s causing the issue, not the gen ed ones, which is why Penn may not be a fit, and there’s nothing wrong with that, sometimes a fit is not a fit.
The example of the APs was about rigor during high school.
I’m just sorry if this kid is labelled ‘doomed’ based on one semester. Sheesh, it took one of mine much longer to find her footing. We cared, we supported, but we did not precipitously pull her out. College is a time of growth, not perfection, and this young man is barely past the starting gate. Too soon to label, without better input from OP.
I believe OP’s family is going through a very difficult time right now. Some earlier posts are criticizing OP. We don’t know their circumstances. But I can see OP has high expectation for her son. Adjusting expectation and showing love are the keys to slowly turn things around. CS is a tough major. I guess OP’s son does not have much sayings at choosing another major. That might also contribute to the problem. Some people need those precious A grades. If they don’t get them, they have to change career plan. Some don’t need those A grades but they can’t accept their self-image and their standing in the class. Perfectionists who got 3.5 GPA can’t survive due to this reason. I believe it is important to really know your kid and don’t push them over the edge. We are very careful not to tell our kid that doing something is easy. If you tell your child (s)he can play tennis at the high level at US Open, you set a very high expectation. (if you read Madison Holleran’s story, her father said that.)
My child told us those “second-tier” kids in its high school all got AP 5. AP does not distinguish kids at top tier. Those who believe they are well-prepared by seeing AP 5 are likely to have problem when they adjust to the reality.
It doesn’t “distinguish” them.
It is part of the academic bar to look for strengths. Realize the fierce competition, where a 4 in the major area can be seen as less strong. It’s not all stats, but stats do matter. So does the ability to take on challenges and resilience. And having a balanced perspective. They had to see something in this kid that said he can do it. Adcoms aren’t acdemic advisors, monitoring course choices.
Using the favorite word on CC, OP’s son wasn’t the right “fit” at UPenn. Obviously, all those involved, including the AOs, didn’t figure it out earlier…
Speaking of “Lake Wobegoners” ( @calmom ), according to Wiki:
Especially in top-tier schools, since everyone was the big fish from where one comes from, the Lake Wobegon effect can disorient freshman students quickly. Most freshman classes are curved. So someone will be below the mean score. To parents and Ivies aspired, have you thought about your (kid’s) reaction if he/she happened to be the one below the mean score? At my kid’s school, some students are flaunting “Arc’teryx”, “Givenchy”, etc. (I have never heard of before), maybe academics is the thing some kids cling to to be proud of themselves. Once that is taken away, some kids might develop mental problem.
The point is though-- there’s no evidence that a student who has a 2.5 GPA their first semester taking a heavy course load at a rigorous school is not a good fit academically. That student has leapt into the deep end of a pool and is not drowning.
The poor “fit” is one of attitude. It is the one talked about in other threads of whether it is better for a given student to be in a competitive environment, or rather a big fish in a small pond. Perhaps some high achieving high school students really are better served if they seek out less selective colleges where they can qualify for generous full tuition or full ride scholarships. Where they can come in comfortably ahead of the pack and stay there.
Because there are students who will feel defeated by a C in a class, and there are students who derive increased motivation from a sense of challenge; students who will take inventory and then take the steps needed to improve their performance (or opt for easier classes or an easier major).
I suppose to a certain extent there’s an argument for holistic admissions here – those “challenge you have overcome” essays may reveal factors about the student’s personality that would help sort out which type of student they are.
But again, I don’t really think it’s the fault of admissions. In this case, there is a student who packed his bags and went home when challenged. It’s not clear to me whether that was a decision made mostly by the student, or encouraged or forced by the parent. So maybe part of the problem is not fit, but parental expectations-- which obviously need to be reasonable in relation to the student. I think parents who expect too much are often setting their kids up for failure when they raise the bar, because they don’t provide room for growth and exploration.
Imagine a different outcome: Another student, with similar grades, stays in school and sticks with the major, but opts for a more reasonably balanced course load in the spring-- and pulls something above 3.0 average, resulting and ends up with a cumulative 2.7 GPA for the year (so, from a C+ first semester to B-) end of year. Success? That hypothetical student has completed his freshman year, and now is establishing an upward trend for grades. Maybe 4 years down the line he ends up graduating with a B or B+ average … but he is graduating in 4 years.
And yes, there are students who stick it out and things only go from bad to worse-- so no guarantees. But there are valuable lessons to be learned either way.
Here’s one of the most common advices you hear on CC when an applicant is concerned about whether or not s/he would be able to do the work at a particular college: “Sure you can. The AOs wouldn’t have accepted you if they didn’t think you can do the work.” Sound familiar?
I’m not blaming the AOs because they’re just human beings. As human beings, we all make mistakes. The current system is set up in a way that a lot of mistakes are made, unfortunately. Even if a struggling student made it through to graduation, it still doesn’t mean the college is a good “fit” for that student. S/he could have been a better “fit” at some other place and would be happier.
Sorry, this kid doesn’t sound like he meets the definition of struggling.
Struggling is a kid who sleeps until noon and blows off his chem labs, flunks. Struggling is a kid whose adviser recommends switching from Comp Sci to sociology- and the kid still flunks two classes. Struggling is a kid who is in the second semester of sophomore year and can’t declare a major because nothing interests him. Struggling is a kid who has spent four semesters on campus but still has freshman standing and has failed to make progress towards completing a degree.
I can’t believe how quick you guys are to dismiss a GPA under 3.0 as struggling. Sometimes it’s a sign the kid IS struggling. And guess what- people get C’s in college. And even love what they are doing, go on to have brilliant careers. Only on CC is this a sign that the AO’s messed up and the kid is in the wrong place.
None of you know people who got C’s in college? And did fine in the rest of their lives?
This is hardly an AO making a mistake. Maybe this kid has a fantastic social life for the first time and is afraid to tell his parents that he’s prioritizing making friends over going to review sessions?
I agree that a 2.5 alone should not trigger a withdrawal. Same with being “sad” about it. It can be a disappointment to not meet expectations whether internal or external. #reallife
However, not criticizing OP. Safety first and trusting instincts.
I’m a former HS grade micromanager. I decided to approach college differently. I don’t ask and don’t check.
They do share some accomplishments and struggles. I encourage them to try a different approach if its not getting the results they want.
D (UCB EECS) told me she had several Cs first year and even a C- in a math class she could have skipped.
I thought she’d never graduate.
I considered telling her to drop.
She felt like a failure (former uw 4.0).
However, if asked, she said enjoyed the material. She felt she was mastering the material and choking on the tests.
I didn’t believe her.
Nonetheless, she carried on and graduated with—from what I gather—below 3.0 and zero internships.
I then thought she never find a job.
In the end, she had job lined up a month before graduation paying 130,000+. She found the job on her own.
She’s been there 5 weeks and is thrilled. She says she getting praise for her work.
I know this is anecdotal. However, I’m so glad I didn’t try to persuade her with sensible advice.
If this kid were a slacker, I would agree s/he may one day kick up couple of notches and be fine. However, s/he is not. This kid has obviously been a hard worker, evidenced by the numerous AP courses s/he took. The freshman courses that s/he wasn’t doing well in are the prerequisites for the courses yet to come. Those courses will get harder and harder still, especially without a good foundation. Sure, there’re C students who succeed later in life, but their successes are generally not in areas where they’ve gotten Cs. They may have found their true “fit” in a totally different area.
Oh please. I got a C in college in a required core course for my major. That term, I just had less than stellar grades.
Remarkably, I had a very successful career.
My DH actually flunked out of an Ivy college…twice. He worked for a bunch of years and went back to college in engineering…and remarkably still has an excellent career.
Did you read my post? My DH FLUNKED OUT of college. Flunked Out…failed enough courses that he was asked not to return.
Actually…after his first horrible year…probation after first semester and flunk Out after second…he was asked to take a year off…but was allowed to return.
Folks get lousy grades sometimes and make a good rebound later.
This OPs kid didn’t flunk out. He was not asked to leave by the college. He was not put on probation.
He has every chance to be successful at some point.
One semester.
First try at college.
We need to believe in kids, not dismiss the first failure as a predictor. It’s not fair. If a kid doesn’t win the first race or his software isn’t perfect on the first try, do you pull him out? What happened to learning, resilience, adapting? You’d have him quit?
Again, OP said he focused too much on one class. Do you truly believe he can’t turn around? That’s too tough for me.
The OP hasn’t been here in ages. It is possible that the leave the kid took was not because of grades. We cannot tell much because we have no info. This discussion is like a litmus test for posters and doesn’t have much to do with the original question I think.