Help! I'm at my wits' end with 13-year-old S

Parents Forum
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My S is conspicuous because of all the special arrangements, and he is much happier when he fits into a group, like the one he had at CTY.

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<p>This is the statement that, for me, sums it all up. I'd really look for a parochial or private that would have more CTY caliber kids. It's tough to be the middle schooler plopped down in a room full of post-puberty teens, far ahead of your son in social skills & maturity. CC always has long threads about college fit. I think h.s. fit can be even more important.</p>

<p>Good luck!</p>

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<p>Actually, my S did not find it difficult to be in a class full of students 4-5 years older than himself because socializing did not happen in class but afterwards. He was lucky to be asked to join one of the science teams by a junior, and made many friends there; they did not seem to be fazed by the fact that he was an 8th grader. That could vary from school to school.</p>

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<p>lealdragon, Thank you for all the information about homeschooling! I did have some misconceptions that you corrected. I do accept that my son, maybe both of them, would be better served by a homeschooling arrangement (some learning at home with me, some on his own, some with a co-op, some with distance learning or EPGY's online HS) than by the public school, but I love my job (physicist doing research) and don't want to give it up. But, as you point out, the homeschooling, at least of my older son, would not take as much of my time as I'd thought. I'll keep this option in the back of my mind.</p>

<p>cheers, I took my son to MIT years ago to visit, at the suggestions of the "gifted" counsellor at the school, who has been working with him for years. At that time, he was spending a lot of time inventing things in his mind, and trying to build things from junk he had collected. She told me that he'd commented that there were no colleges for inventors. She told him about MIT, and I took him there. This became an annual event. We walk around the halls and look at the exhibits, spend some time in the engineering library under the dome (he looks through some of the hundreds of current issues of journals on display), go to the various small museums there. When he was younger, it was a way to show him that the whole world was not like our suburb, that there were places full of people like him. On our first visit he commented, with longing in his voice, that "There are people here from all over the world!" Last fall he went to a weekend they have for MS and HS students each November. There are 2-hour mini-classes in different areas all day Saturday and Sunday. He signed up for the most hard-core math and physics classes and had a wonderful time. They also offer 10-week classes on Saturdays in the spring, and he wanted badly to go, but I could not manage taking him up to Boston every weekend for 10 weeks. Maybe I'll be able to do it this spring. I was at MIT for grad school (joint program with H) and my husband was a post-doc there. At this point, MIT looks like heaven to my son. It isn't the only place that would look that way, just the one that I picked to show him possibilities for the future. This doesn't mean that he will still want to go there in 5 years, or that he should go there, or that he'll get in. But it's a nice goal to have, and he is realistic about the admissions situation.</p>

<p>I am not "preoccupied with super-high performance". I think that a boy who scored 640 on the math SAT at age 12, with no preparation, and who has asked to be excused from his accelerated math class because it is far too easy for him, and who understands the material thoroughly, should be able to get a higher score than 86% on an exam! It is not hard to get good grades at his school. Over half of the kids are on the honor roll (he was not last year, even once) and this is a public school with the full range of abilities.</p>

<p>I hope you are right, cheers, about the independent schools making allowances for disorganized boys. I have heard that the most selective schools around here expect all A's from kids in public schools. My son is a delightful kid - not only my opinion, but a fairly general one - but I'm not sure how he will be seen by an admissions officer. You are definitely right about his ambivalence about changing schools. He is worried about the commuting time and the (perceived) greater workload - his free time is valuable to him, and he never has enough for all he wants to do. At the moment his workload is very light - when he settles down to it, he can finish his homework in 40 mins or less. He never has to study because he retains everything, and the material is not difficult. But I know that the workload in our HS is tremendous, and probably takes as much time as private schools demand, while being less interesting. I'm hoping to arrange a visit to one of the schools soon, because I think seeing what school can be like would motivate him to do what is necessary to make the change. </p>

<p>My husband is concerned, as I am, about whether our S will be able to manage at private school, with commuting time and more demanding work, when he isn't cutting it now.</p>

<p>I'm glad to hear that puberty may bring some positive changes!</p>

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<p>marite, My S has been accepted and treated well by the 9th and 10th graders who are in his math and science classes, and by the 9th-12th graders who were in a science research elective he took last year (and couldn't fit into his schedule this year). He is comfortable in the situation, although most of his friends are in his grade, or one grade up or down.</p>

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<p>It almost sounds like your S is one of those kids who should be in college now:) academically. This is a tough call. When my S was 4 in nursery school they told me he was ready for 2nd grade work but that he was still a baby and needed the emotional growth. When I told him the other day that I probably should have taken out of his alternative school in 6th grade and accelerated him, he told me, "Mom, I would have hated that." He didn't take the SAT until he was 15. We sort of ignored the enrichment thing, just found the best private high school we could that focused on the whole child, and are plugging along assuming it will turn out OK. My S seems to have needed and to still need to tread the regular kid path, soccer, video games and all, despite showing these gifted signs. But that's just my kid and it seems to be tied to his vision of what kind of man he wants to grow into. Cheers' boys are yet another version of gifted kids. Sounds like for your guy, especially given that you and H are both physics people so it's got to be deep in his genes, that Marite can probably offer you the best practical advice. As you probably know her S is now a sophomore at Harvard and came in v. advanced in math.</p>

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<p>My S is similar, maybe a bit less gifted, but had a lot of trouble in early years with material being too easy and there being WAY too much repetition. Everyday Math was excruciating for him, with all its cycling back over material and it would drive him crazy when the info in the "real-life applications" was inaccurate. Another Mom and Went in everyday for months to accelerate our sons' through five grade math. We did this because they were so bored they couldn't focus in class. When they hit 6th grade math in the spring, they were much more interested.</p>

<p>I think it's likely your S has trouble focusing because of lack of challenge and will likely do much better with harder material. I hate to say it, but I used to feel like he felt his intelligence was being insulted. HS has been better, with great extra-curriculars and so me AP courses.</p>

<p>Your S sounds wonderful! I would reccomend the book "Driven to Distraction" on the add front, though this may be maturational, due to boredom or a personality characteristic (there are worse ones). I believe I've heard that einstein had trouble remembering what his own house looked like.</p>

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But I know that the workload in our HS is tremendous, and probably takes as much time as private schools demand, while being less interesting.

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<p>If he goes to a parochial or private h.s., he'll be attending with other kids who scored 640s as 12 year olds. Having a peer group of bright kids his age in h.s. will give him a taste for what MIT or other elite colleges will be like. A tremendous workload of busywork sounds like torture!</p>

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<p>What worked really well for us was a math/sci/compsci magnet program that admits highly gifted kids. He could take math classes at the level he needed and there was enough of a critical mass that he wasn't the only one who was subject accelerated. It's not perfect (the competition can be intense, though he blows that off), but he has intellectual and social peers, and they happen to be the same people! :*) If we didn't have access to the program, we would have sought out EPGY or CTY for math (when he was younger) and then gone on to the local college in HS.</p>

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<p>True, a 99% student SHOULD be able to score higher on exams--but your expectation seems to apply to EVERY exam. In that case, especially for 8th grade, you're expecting too much. You might allow him to express his imperfection or boredom or anxiety without the extra burden of mom freaking out over an 86%. CC students do complain about parents who expect 24/7 perfection. They resent that expectation.</p>

<p>There are a few top boarding schools, Exeter for example, which expect straight A reports but even Exeter makes exceptions--particularily for boys who are known to be less mature and less organized. Truly, they do consider the whole student and they do favor applicants with super high test scores. Trust them to 'see' your boy and his potential.</p>

<p>Besides, the fact that your son is losing interest in his public school academics is a selling point for his private school application.</p>

<p>The explanation about MIT makes me think that you would be foolish to delay a visit to the private schools. Perhaps he will 'see' himself in one of those schools and gain confidence about his time and his 'pack'. That certianly happened with both of my boys when they spent the day at their prospective school. Call the admissions director and ask about a day visit. In all likelihood, he will be assigned to a student 'mentor' for the day. I've seen hundreds of kids make those visits. It can be a very exciting day for a bright student.</p>

<p>Good luck.</p>

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<p>In re: Alumother's post #65, a lot depends on local resources. We are close to MIT and Harvard, which is not the case for NYmomof2. </p>

<p>On the issue of the 86% score: sometimes, high achieving students score worse on easy stuff than on the harder stuff. They blow easier assignments, pay more attention and are more meticulous on the challenging ones. A case in point: S's AP-Chemistry teacher became exasperated by his sloppy lab reports and slapped him with a third quarter grade of B+. But, in the same quarter, she nominated him for a regional qualifying competition for the Chemistry Olympiad. The same thing happened two years later in a course he had to take because no alternative could be found to fill that particular slot in his schedule. The teacher explained that she understood his frustration, but she could only grade the work that was presented to her. Finally, they came to an agreement that he would do a special project of his own choosing, which was far more challenging than anything required for the course.
H and I came to the conclusion that taking easy courses was a recipe for receiving low grades. </p>

<p>Maybe the best thing is to go the prep school route. Or to look into Simon's Rock of Bard College. Or a specialized school such as the Massachusetts Academy of Arts and Sciences (which is affiliated with WPI). </p>

<p>Since you are a physicist, would you be able to persuade a colleague to act as mentor to your son and perhaps a group of like-minded friends? This person might be easier for your son to deal with than his own parents. The mentor could suggest more math or science to do, or organize a Math Counts team and/or a Science Team. The group need not meet more than once a week, but this could easily become the focal point of the whole week for students eager for a challenge and a group of peers. More info on Math Counts and other math competitions can be found on <a href="http://www"&gt;www&lt;/a>. Artofproblemsolving.com. There are also many suggestions for possible science projects on the Internet (google edc.org or nsta.org). The National Science Teachers Association is the organization that runs end-of session tests that validate the Fast-Paced High School science tests of CTY.
Before S was accelerated in math and science, we found that extra-curricular math enrichment really improved his attitude toward school in general. Just being able to look forward to challenging and engaging math problems made him more tolerant of the slower-moving parts of the curriculum. However, I should also repeat that in the humanities/social studies, he was plenty challenged by teachers who knew what he was capable of and held him to high standards--and they were public school teachers as well as active in the union. It's not a public vs. private school issue.</p>

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I’d prefer that he go to a more challenging HS and leave for college at the regular time, but this may not be in the cards for him.

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Of course, if you can find a highschool that works for him, that would be great. But keep in mind that he wouldn't have to leave home to start college. Homeschoolers often take classes at local colleges, which they then include in their homeschool transcripts. Many highschools have similar programs. There are concerns about the number of credits you can earn and still apply to other colleges as a freshman, but it can work. </p>

<p>My point is that he should be accelerated to whatever point he is comfortable and challenged, even if it means including college courses before he's ready to leave home.</p>

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<p>i second simon's rock college of bard, although thats a ways off... also, if your son doesnt end up going to a prep school look into study abroad for a year of high school... im doing it next year, and from what i know its a way to challenge yourself outside the regular classroom.</p>

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<p>For what it's worth, Stanford's online program has expanded this year to offer a full high school curriculum for highly gifted students. This program includes conferencing with fellow students and teachers, and can include summer residential courses. Take a look online -- this might be an alternative. (And by the way, why does the teachers' union have any input whatsover into the decision as to whether your son does math EPGY?)</p>

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<p>The teachers' union rep objected because he wanted (and I agreed) to do EPGY instead of a regular math class, because even the accelerated track he was in wasn't moving fast enough for him. </p>

<p>I do know about the online HS, and I'm keeping it in the back of my mind.</p>

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<p>It seems to me that there are two separate issues involved here. Issue one is that your son is unhappy right now at the age of 13 because he isn't challenged enough. Issue 2 is that you are worried that if his grades don't improve he won't get into a top private high school and thus won't get into MIT.</p>

<p>Don't worry about MIT. I assure you that I know several MIT grads and students who were lousy students in 8th grade. Kids--even boys ;0 !--mature. Let me let you in on a little secret. College acceptances are not awarded based on achievement. Lots of kids with 4.0+ high school grades and mediocre SATs learn that lesson the hard way. That's one way in which Hernandez's "A Is For Admission" is exactly right. The kids with mediocre grades and rocket scientist test scores do very well in college admissions ....ESPECIALLY if they are males who suddenly get their acts together along about the second semester of 10th grade or even the first semester of 11th. (I may be out of date, but in my kids' day, Princeton, Stanford, and UMichigan all said publicly that they didn't include your grades for the freshman year of high school in calculating your gpa. You could flunk 9th grade and it wouldn't matter to them. )</p>

<p>So, just focus on NOW--not the future. I may be attacked for saying this...but I get the impression from your posts that you have encouraged your son to think he is "special" based on his gifts. There's an old book--the title is something like "Raising Your Type A Child" that explains why that is really ...well..dumb. Have you ever met a spoiled brat rich kid who had a sense of entitlement? He thought that he was "special" and shouldn't have to take a regular old entry level job after finishing college? Well..remember I'm a stranger who is judging you... but judging you based SOLELY on what you yourself have posted..take a deep breath. Ready?</p>

<p>I think you have conveyed to your son the idea that he is as smart as the kids who go to MIT and BELONGS at a school like MIT. He is, to be blunt, ENTITLED to it because he is SMART! He doesn't have to work for it! YOU, his parents--who are, no matter what he says, the ultimate authorities on life right now-- may be teaching him that his sense of worth should come from being smart, rather than from working hard to achieve something. </p>

<p>I assure you that I know Mensa members who work as messengers in NYC. Having a high IQ is worth diddly squat unless you do something with it. Stop treating your son as "oh, so special" because he is "oh, so smart." Don't tell him an 86 isn't good enough because he "can do better than that." Start praising him for what he DOES..not for what he IS. </p>

<p>I don't mean you jump up and down with joy when he gets an 86. I do mean you say that 86 isn't something to write home about WITHOUT saying "You're so smart, I know you can do better." There are WAY too many C students who will say that if they had studied, they would have gotten an A when reality is that if they had studied, they would have gotten a B. Somehow, when they've been told how "special" they are, their self-images can deal better with Cs (or an 86, which, yes, I know is better than a C)which they got with NO studying than with getting Bs or 92s WITH studying.</p>

<p>Does that make any sense? I hope so because I really think there are two problems here. The first is a VERY common one. Your son is ..like most 13 year old boys..a bit immature. The second is that he MAY--I'm no shrink--have learned from you that he should judge himself and others in terms of how smart or gifted he or someone else is INSTEAD of taking pride in what he DOES by working hard. </p>

<p>If you want him to work harder--you praise him when he works and succeeds. You STOP praising him for being smart. </p>

<p>Sometimes it helps to have a kid take lessons in an area in shich he isn't gifted. If he isn't musical, have him take guitar or piano lessons..and don't let him quit! Praise him for what he accomplishes. Do NOT say you are never going to make it to Carnegie Hall, so this is a waste of $! You want to praise him for WORKING, not for aptitude.</p>

<p>Hope this helps.If I am way off base--forgive me. I am just trying to figure out what is going on based on your posts.</p>

<p>I think your son may-subconsciously--think that he may not be good enough to get into the private schools..and that if he isn't, you'll be disappointed. He'd rather not get in because he didn't try than not get in because he tried and failed.</p>

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<p>Let me give you a list of my grades I got throughout the years</p>

<p>4th grade: all As
5th grade: all As
6th grade: As, Bs, and maybe one C
7th grade: F, D, D, C, B, A, etc (worst year ever academically, for me)
8th grade: D, C, C, B, B, A, etc (errr, not much better)
Freshmen: A, A, B, B, B, C, C, A (bassically ruined my HS gpa for the rest of HS)
Sophomore: A, B, A, B, A, B, A, B
Junior: A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A (this was, by the way, my hardest work load ever, AP on top of AP on top of self studying on top of several other things)
Summer at University of Arizona: A</p>

<p>My motivation started in the second semester of freshmen year, when I had Mr. Int-Hout as my earth/space science teacher. He was the best teacher I've ever had... Anyway, I slowly started to realize that I really wanted to work hard at everything and realized that not only did the knowlege matter, but also the hard work that I would put into it. So then, when I was signing up for Junior year classes, I put down several classes such as: AP US History, AP Biology, AP Physics, AP Calculus, etc, etc. My counselor told me that "even smart people don't usually pull of this sort of course load"..... Im really glad that something inside of me clicked when it did....</p>

<p>I sincerely hope that your son will learn the importance of hard work and "silly assignments" really soon.</p>

<p>EDIT: Also, I don't have any learning disorders or any mental disabilities or anything of the sort. I'm also very social.... Just trying to help connect some dots...</p>

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<p>My kids also went to public school--the best public schools we could find for them, even tho it meant a commute each day, from K thru 8th grade. The longer each of them stayed in public schools, the more frustrated & alienated the kids became. Every year, the # of kids my kids could really discuss their ideas with in class shrank because of folks transferring to independent private schools.</p>

<p>7th grade, S lost nearly the entire peer group he had built up to private school, & he had increasing difficulty with teachers who got upset when he asked questions they couldn't answer.<br>
It got so bad that the 8th grade Gifted & Talented teacher would totally ignore his presence and made him very reticent to speak with ANY teachers, which was a problem when he interviewed for a competitive independent HS. I explained to the interviewer WHY he was reticent and S was admitted, even tho his grades were lower than his very high national test scores indicated they should be (he too was bored out of his mind).
My D ran into similar problems and was teased by her peers because she would unconsciously use words that were not part of their vocabulary & she was accused of plagarism by a teacher who couldn't believe she could actually write eloquently. Fortunately, she was also admitted to the competitive independent private school and they didn't rescind her acceptance, tho like her brother her grades were lower than the test scores.</p>

<p>Even at the very competitive HS they now attend, their grades are still not has high as their test scores (S was barely the top 1/2 of his graduating class of 230 in grades). This unfortunately did keep S from being accepted at the uber-selectives, but he still became a NMF & is a freshman at a very good U, with good merit aid in engineering, where he's very happy.</p>

<p>It does sound like homeschooling has more options than I realized, tho it does sound like it varies considerably by where the student lives as to what resources are available. I would definitely need help teaching math or science!</p>

<p>Both S & D are somewhat disorganized. Fortunately, S has an organization that works fairly well for him & I hope he will improve it now that he's begun college. D is still extremely disorganized & loses bday invitations, assignments, papers, etc., but fortunately not TOO many textbooks. <sigh> Even S has inadvertently "exchanged" textbooks with a classmate & at the end of the year, they never bothered to restore the original book to the original owner!</sigh></p>

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<p>My S learned not to speak up in early grades because he was passed over for other kids. The teachers explained that they knew he knew the answers to questions and wanted to find out which other kids knew or did not know. But it set the pattern for S fading into the background which subsists today.</p>

<p>Nonetheless, he was challenged in middle school when he had teachers willing to let him work at his level, and he did not want to be grade-skipped in order to be with his friends. From the beginning, we told him we wanted him to do his best, but not to worry about grades. This enabled him to take classes several grade-levels above that of his peers without concern that he had to achieved a high grade; he also knew that he could drop down a level if the classes were too hard. As long as he was in the middle of the pack, he could stay in the class; in other words, he did not have to achieve As all the time or even most of the time.
In high school, he stopped wanting to be with his k-8 friends, mostly because they ended up in different classes. Also, as a result of taking more advanced classes, he had many friends who were older and were leaving school earlier than he. So he made up his mind to graduate early.
There are many other students who entered college at the same age and he does not feel out place socially or intellectually.
In choosing schools or classes, I would still go by my criterion: can my child do the best he can? rather than focus on grades themselves.</p>

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<p>I just finished reading this thread, and realized every perspective was offered. So many CC parents have lived thru similar issues. Some boys are more compliant about completing busy work, but others are not. My area did not have a good magnet school for math/science, but such a school could exist near you. In last 2 years, children are able to enroll in local college starting in 9th grade, which includes more classes than standard dual enrollment. That program allowed for 2 classes a semester, but S enrolled in more and paid privately. These classes included more math, Latin, etc.
A magnet school would have been my first suggestion to you.I'd investigate private schools. Some prefer the bright but not overly bright kids. I'd also look into modified homeschooling. I know kids who attend school for part of day, then take on-line courses.
Did your S meet anyone from CTy who lives in your area? Perhaps there is a local math club. My S took the microsoft certification course.</p>

<p>I'm not sure if your S meets criteria for ADHD--inattention. He would need 6 or more of following symptoms: (abbreviating)
1 fails to give close ATT to details, or careless mistakes
2. difficulty sustaining ATT in tasks/play
3. doesn't seem to listen when spoken to directly
4. does not follow thru on instructions or fails to finish homeowrk, chores, etc (NOT due to oppositional bx)
5. difficulty organizing tasks & activities
6. often avoids, dislikes, or is reluctant to engage in tasks that require sustained mental energy
7. often loses things necessary for tasks/activities
8.often easily distracted by extraneous stimuli
9. often forgetful in daily activities</p>

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<p>Good luck to NYMom!</p>

<p>I do understand that homeschooling may not be for everyone, but I can't help but interject something here. </p>

<p>I am amazed at the level of stress that the families who posted on this thread are evidently going thru, when their kids are still so young. Homeschoolers don't have to fret about college when the kid is only 13. When my son was 13, he was a free spirit and was far, far, far from thinking about college at all, much less already decided on which college. That's not to say he wasn't learning - he was - in fact he was writing college-level essays (according to his homeschool co-op teacher, who was a college professor now homeschooling her own children), teaching himself how to create websites, and pursuing other worthy learning activities. But, most of his education at that point was for the joy of learning (except for algebra, which he didn't like) and relatively stress-free. He was a carefree kid whose main concerns were playing video games and his Robotics team.</p>

<p>This is a major advantage of homeschooling. Most homeschoolers who pursue college do as well or better (statistically proven) than their conventional-schooled counterparts on SAT and other tests, and have a reputation for thriving in college. (They often thrive in college because they never 'hated' school.) I just wonder what the long-term effects are, of the increasingly competitive and high-pressure atmosphere that conventionally-schooled kids are being subjected to, at earlier and earlier ages.</p>

<p>Just something to consider.</p>