<p>NYMomof2 - I am very glad to hear that the "dark tunnel" comment was a red herring.</p>
<p>NYMomofTwo, as I mentioned in my earlier post your son sounds like a normal boy to me. I don't know any boys who are organized, get paperwork done in a timely basis or like busy work. It's just not their nature.</p>
<p>I do think, though, that it might be wise to tone down the MIT thing. Many parents here are very cautious about having a high school senior apply ED since so much happens between fall and spring of senior year. Given the number of changes between eighth grade and college, it is WAY to early to focus so much on that kind of goal. I would say, let him learn Chinese and Arabic if possible. These are the years when kids should be trying new things, not limiting their interests. He may find he likes languages or linguistics better than math and science. By the time he's ready to look at colleges he may find a LAC to be a better fit. Jmho. :)</p>
<p>NYmom:</p>
<p>The middle school years are the toughest. On the one hand, the child is going through a lot of changes. On the other, the curriculum is a lot of review. That, apparently, is true across the board, not just in bad middle schools (I started reading up on middle schools when my S encountered this issue).</p>
<p>So here are some suggestions: private schools may be an option, though not necessarily so: they vary in quality and rigor. Your child may or may not qualify. They may not be conveniently situated. </p>
<p>I would suggesting investigating your local high school and see if there will be flexibility in course selection and scheduling to accommodate more advanced students. Knowing the quality of the high school may help you make decisions about what to do now while he finishes middle school.</p>
<p>Meanwhile, would you child be able to take some more advanced classes at the high school? If not, would individual teachers be willing to allow him to test out of some units and skip the homework for those units so that he can concentrate on more advanced materials? Basicallym this was what the math teacher suggested to us at the end of 6th grade: see if S is familiar with the contents of the 8th grade math text. When we reported he was and told him some of the topics S had already learned, he gave S a pre-calc text. H was able to supervise S's math education.</p>
<p>The very busy parents of one of the more advanced students in my S's class hired a tutor to meet with her once or twice a week to assign problems and to correct them.<br>
She was one of four kids who sat in a corner of the room working at their own pace (all different). This was much cheaper than sending the kids to private school. We could all do this because the humanities/social studies curriculum was very challenging and the teachers were first-rate and tailored their expectations of each student to that student's abilities. If the school is uniformly unchallenging, however, a different strategy is called for.</p>
<p>Marite, our MS/HS share a campus, and my S is already taking math and science in the HS. I have a pretty good idea of the situation in the HS from students, parents, and teachers, and I'd like my S to have something else if we can arrange it. The school is somewhat flexible, but testing out of some units, etc., is not possible. As it is, I feel that the existing system has been significantly distorted in an attempt to meet my son's needs. The distortion causes resentment from parents and, surprisingly, some teachers. For some reason, the kids themselves are quite accepting. My S is conspicuous because of all the special arrangements, and he is much happier when he fits into a group, like the one he had at CTY. </p>
<p>I would say that the school is not challenging enough for my S, who is unusual in his interest in being challenged. If he ends up staying, it won't be the worst thing in the world, but I'm hoping for more for him.</p>
<p>SJmom, MIT is certainly not written in stone. My S loves it there, and thinks that it's what he wants, but I think he'd be better off at a more well-rounded school. But we do have a long time before these decisions are looming!</p>
<p>NYMomof2, sorry to be redundant but perhaps it will comfort you to know you're not alone.</p>
<p>My S is 23 now...your description is pretty close to how I would have described him at 13. The grades never matched the high test scores....decent grades but not top of the class where they could have been. Sadly bored all the way through hs.</p>
<p>He is the last person in the world I would have suspected with ADD. At age 21 as a college senior he finally agreed to a session with a PhD psychologist...we were all surprised at the diagnosis of ADD but it was comforting in that it explained so much of his behavior.</p>
<p>I suspect your S may continue to be, at the least, less organized than his peers. It may result, like it did with our S, in his grades being less than stellar. I can tell you it isn't the end of the world. Looking back a decade, there isn't a whole lot you can do to "make" someone more organized or to sit obediently through a horribly boring class and pay attention. </p>
<p>So the lack of top grades may keep him out of MIT...it's OK, of course you know that. There were times I thought ours would never make it to college, way too disorganized and forgetful (btw he too could concentrate for hours on certain activities, like video/computer games or reading a good book so don't let that stop you from getting him evaluated). </p>
<p>Our S seems to be handling life (in NYC no less) just fine. Your son will be fine too. My advice: don't push him too hard or especially don't nag...it will fall on deaf ears. But make sure as best you can he's academically stimulated, just don't fret if he doesn't get an A...he'll get what he needs from his classes. He seems to have so many remarkable qualities, best of all intellectual curiosity....you're very lucky.</p>
<p>NYmom:</p>
<p>Interesting. It was the teachers who recommended S to go to the high school for AP-Physics and re-arranged the schedule to meet his needs (it was a 15 minutes walk). The only person who was not happy was the Spanish teacher, because S had to miss one hour each week; but S still made As in his class. The students were fine with it both in k-8 and in the high school (S got roped into one of the science teams).
It is really too bad that your school's teachers were not more supportive. I have to say that one reason we did not send our S to a private school was that we were not convinced that private schools would be any more flexible than our public school. At each grade level, they very likely would be better; but for a kid who needed to skip grades in some subjects but not necessarily in others, they would not have the flexibility, and would run out of curriculum in math and science anyway well before 12th grade. So that is something to keep in mind, the difference between grade level excellence vs. curricular flexibility.</p>
<p>celloguy, thank you for your kind and calming post, which I saw early this morning. Your sons school sounds wonderful, and I know my son would love that kind of place. Im reluctant, though, to send him away at this point.</p>
<p>Blossom, your calming words were a balm early this morning after 2 hours of sleep. You are, indeed, correct that I have condensed my sons entire future into these few weeks (good first quarter grades needed for private school admission, etc.) I needed the reminder that there are other options, and I appreciate all the practical suggestions. I had not thought of using the CTY information, but I will do so. I did notice when my son was there that they made it impossible for the kids to lose books or papers all materials stayed in the classroom always.</p>
<p>Nan, by my son understands and accepts the situation, I meant that I have let him know that admission to any one college is not assured no matter how wonderful the student. Ive given him a couple of the more sensitive articles to read. I didnt want him to count on going to MIT for 6 years, only to be rejected. He has a realistic attitude now, and knows that he will be a good candidate, he may still not be admitted, and there are many other schools that would be great for him. The homeschooling idea has been suggested before for my S, but it isnt something I feel I could take on. It has occurred to me that if he stays in our district, he may very well end up going to college a year early. He is already accelerated in math and science. Id prefer that he go to a more challenging HS and leave for college at the regular time, but this may not be in the cards for him.</p>
<p>Roshke, I like the idea of using subject tutors to help him both organize and expand on the material. This would be ideal in English or Social Studies. Im going to look into this.</p>
<p>Jollybean, I love the happy ending of your sons story! He does sound a lot like mine.</p>
<p>I'm too tired to type any more tonight, after my sleepness night. Thank you again to everyone who posted.</p>
<p>I am not trying to devalidate the nature of ADD or ADHD nor am I trying to cause insult to anyone who has it or has a child who has it...</p>
<p>But, enough with the ADD or ADHD already. </p>
<p>Gosh.</p>
<p>NYMOM: Your child is a very smart 13 year old who is bored out of his wits as near as I can infer from your postings. </p>
<p>Therefore, since you live in NY, you have to try and figure out a way to get the child some advanced schooling on the double. </p>
<p>How are things set up in NY? Have you called the school board to find out what you can do? </p>
<p>Also, since the child is somewhat gifted, does he have an IEP? If he has an IEP, then you have more leeway then you might think.</p>
<p>Oh, and Alumother, I love your post #33!</p>
<p>Here is an idea that could solve both of your problems (the schooling and the work stress): Homeschool and quit your job!</p>
<p>Well, I am only half joking...</p>
<p>I don't know what your situation is, or whether it's even feasible, but read on...you might be surprised!</p>
<p>I was going to suggest homeschooling but then saw that a couple of other parents already suggested it. I agree completely with Nan's post. Yes, it does entail some sacrifice, but oh, the rewards are great!</p>
<p>Here is an excellent source of info:</p>
<p>And here is an excerpt from something I wrote about my own son's homeschooling experience. Your son sounds a LOT like my son! I invite you to just read this, fyi - you never know when something might just click, and a new possibility open up!</p>
<p>--
I agree that alternative schools like Montessori and Waldorf are wonderful, if they are available and affordable to the family. However, many families do not have those options. Also, I think there is a major misinterpretation about homeschooling that I would like to clear up.</p>
<p>Many people assume that homeschooling means that the child is stuck at home all day, without any socializing. It is true that some people do homeschool in that way, and that is certainly detrimental to any child.</p>
<p>However, that is not the only way to homeschool, and in fact most homeschooling parents do not homeschool that way. Nowadays, there are many options that were not available even 10 years ago. One option that is gaining in popularity is participation in homeschool 'co-ops.' Homeschool co-ops offer the best of both worlds. The child participates in the co-op once or twice a week, so s/he gets a 'taste' of the classroom experience as well as that all-important socializing. Some co-ops have even evolved into 'hybird' schools in which the children attend 3 days per week. Co-ops are bascially schools run by the parents, but without the strictures of conventional schools. The parents can decide with their children which classes to enroll in, keeping in mind that the classes are supplemental and not intended to replace what's being taught at home. There are usually few or no rules regarding age limits: for example, my son took several high-school level classes when he was in 7th-8th grades.</p>
<p>S was homeschooled. Actually, to be more accurate, he was primarily 'unschooled,' which means that we honored his interests as much as possible, rather than following a set curriculum or conventional timeline. We did make sure that all of the important subjects were covered, but they weren't always in the same sequence or in the same style as mainstream schools would follow.</p>
<p>My son attended co-ops up until 10th grade, when he enrolled at the local community college. At the co-ops, he took classes in art (drawing, painting, sculpting), piano, Shakespeare, speech and drama, chess, yearbook/journalism, chemistry with lab, and many other enriching subjects. He felt very much at home there, because the classes were small and he had a circle of friends whom he knew very well and was comfortable with. It was a safe environment. I never had to worry about knives or gangs. And, it was much more affordable than private schools.</p>
<p>My son also participated in many other activities, including being on a Robotics team, complete with the state competition with all its cheerleaders and excitement. He was never interested in organized sports, but many homeschool students participate in martial arts, gymnastics, scouting, etc. so there are plenty of opportunities for socializing without the strictures of school.</p>
<p>We actually taught very few subjects in a 'structured' fashion. Instead, we allowed S free access to a huge selection of books, videos, educational games, etc. as well as going out of our way to get him involved with 'real life' applications, such as in-depth discussions with friends in technological industries, etc. We found that this approach worked well with S. He is exceptionally conversant in a broad range of topics, and often knows more about any given subject than many adults, even professionals. He can hold his own quite well with the software engineers where I work, for example, or in a political debate.</p>
<p>The bulk of S's education was, in fact, self-taught. S has always had a keen interest in science, so he made good use of the assortment of science and computer magazines that we subscribed to. For example, by the age of 14, he had created his own website totally on his own (for his video gaming 'clan') and was webmaster and 'computer repair guy' for two different homeschool co-ops. They trusted him to fix their computers.</p>
<p>An excellent case in favor of homeschooling is made by John Holt in his outstanding book, 'Teach Your Own.' This effectively makes the case that, rather than sacrificing socialization by homeschooling, socialization is actually the reason TO homeschool! (Now there's a radical thought!) I highly recommend this book; it is what turned my mind around.</p>
<p>Here is a summary of the key points covered by Mr. Holt:</p>
<p>See also:</p>
<p>...especially the one entitled 'No Thank You, We Don't Believe in Socialization!' but they are all excellent. These will give you a completely different picture of the 'real' homeschooling experience (as opposed to the clinical opinion of some psychologists, most of whom have probably never even met homeschooled children).</p>
<p>I used to think that homeschooling was a completely bad choice. I enrolled my son in an expensive, prestigious preschool/kindergarten, even though we really couldn't afford it. Preschool was wonderful, but when he got to kindergarten, he was already reading 4th grade books, and they had him sit still and recite the alphabet with the other children. He was also already mutliplying 4x8 in his head for fun, yet the school insisted that he do worksheets of 1+1. To this day, he still does not like math because of that!</p>
<p>This was an alternative kindergarten supposedly operating on Montessori principles, and even they were not able to accomodate him.</p>
<p>Many gifted children do NOT make it in schools. Many of them fall thru the cracks. I work for an educational testing company and I have witnessed children being forced to repeat grades, despite being obviously gifted. I read some of these papers by these children and they were extraordinary - poignant and articulate. They even had good grammar. But, because they did not 'follow the rules' precisely, because they had the audacity to 'think outside the box' they were given a failing grade. This happens a LOT.</p>
<p>I know that my own son would not have made it in a school. I really do think that his light would have been dimmed. As it is, he is able to converse with anyone, regardless of age, and he is more in tune with his feelings than most adults. But I just cannot imagine him in a public school. He is way too much of an independent thinker.</p>
<p>--</p>
<p>I will add here that homeschooling young children is admittedly difficult if both parents work outside the home. However, since your son is 13, that makes it much more doable. I was home with my son til he was 9, at which time my hubby was home during the day (he teaches classes in the evenings) so I went back to an outside job part-time. I returned to my career as a software engineer but managed to find a position that allowed me to set my own hours. So, I took Fridays off and taught at the homeschool co-op where my son attended. This made it affordable. It was still a sacrifice financially, but I have no regrets.</p>
<p>Again, I don't know what your situation is, so homeschooling might not be an option for you. But I invite you to check it out - there are a variety of options that creative parents employ to pull it off.</p>
<p>Sweet dreams:). Just think of it this way. The apple ain't usually falling too far from the tree. We are given to mother those who need us...</p>
<p>Another good bromide is: This too shall pass.</p>
<p>I posted my previous post about homeschooling before I read your response that you couldn't 'take that on.'</p>
<p>Just an idea: It sounds like you have already taken a lot on. Homeschooling is not nearly as stressful or time-consuming as you might think, especially if you enlist the help of a co-op or hybrid school or correspondence curriculum. I don't think I EVER spent more than 2 hours a day on schooling, and most of the time we didn't even do that. I would estimate that my son probably got about 2 years' worth of structured schooling in the 10 years before he started comm college classes. Actually, I probably never spent any more time formally teaching my son than most parents spend helping their kids with their homework, or nagging them to do their homework! </p>
<p>See, the idea is that gifted kids really do love to learn, and if get the institutionalized schooling out of the way, then they do what comes naturally - learn!</p>
<p>My experience is that kids, especially gifted kids, often do best with minimal structured curriculum - the only thing we taught structured was math - yet our son got all the required stuff and actually remembered it, as opposed to promptly forgetting the facts after the test. This varies with the student's temperament - some do better with more structure than others. I recommend John Holt's book for some surprising stories about 8-year-old kids who learned high school level chemistry on their own, and actually retained the knowledge, and other amazing stories.</p>
<p>I don't mean to be putting a sales pitch on homeschooling if it's clearly not for you - as I said, I posted that before I'd read the other posts - but my point here is that many people don't really know much about homeschooling and therefore make some assumptions that rule out what might have been viable options.</p>
<p>Oops, I'd better clarify something here:</p>
<p>We MOSTLY unschooled, but not TOTALLY unschooled.</p>
<p>Some people 'unschool' to the point of no structure at all, not even math. I completely disagree with this approach. They say the kid will get what s/he needs to survive in the world, and that may be true, but no kid is ever going to teach him/her -self algebra, unless s/he happens to be a math enthusiast. Total unschooling - that is, no structure at all - is not an option, imo, if you want your kid to have the option of going to college. And, many homeschooled students love going to college! They never developed a bad taste of school. In all fairness, I have heard of some unschooled kids who taught themselves algebra just because they wanted to go to college. I just didn't see my son ever doing that, so we did 'teach' the math. Everything else we taught in a very organic way (on a daily basis, just part of life) or he taught himself because he was interested, or he got it at the co-op. I would NEVER have taught him any science, because that would have spoiled his love for science. Instead, I gave him plenty of resources - he devours all the science magazines we subscribe to, for example.</p>
<p>I might have stepped on some toes here, so if there are any radical unschoolers out there who have a college-bound kid, please share your story!</p>
<p>Boarding school may be a good option. There are hundreds of schools, many in the northeast covering the broad range of the most selective Ten Schools to the majority that are academically challenging but not as selective. I suggest you get your hands on Petersen's Guide and telephone a few to discuss your son's strengths and weaknesses. I've found admissions reps to be surprisingly frank.</p>
<p>Checking out some possible alternatives may give him hope and turn this year around.</p>
<p>OT -- I always thought that if I homeschooled my kids, they'd spend all of their time in detention! :( Some of us don't have that gene.</p>
<p>??</p>
<p>Oh, I get it. It's the 'school' part of homeschool. Let that go (as in, don't try to duplicate school) and it works fine.</p>
<p>blossom's post contained fine wisdom--as usual.</p>
<p>You have a boy who is a keen learner. Feed his interests. Let him take his interests to his goals. As his testosterone increases, his focus and ambition will also increase. Give him the space to grow into those ambitions.</p>
<p>Where did he get the MIT ambition? Has he visited? Does he have a close relative who graduated from MIT? MIT is a big abstract concept for most 13 year old boys. Are you sure he didn't adopt it to please you?</p>
<p>Trust Independent day schools to evaluate the whole student. His high test scores will mean the world to them as they probably indicate a future National Merit Scholar. If he is halfway sociable, I'd say that most schools will be very interested in having him. Remember, these schools educate very bright, disorganized boys, year in and year out. Frankly, it is the unusual boy who is NOT somewhat disorganized in his highly multi-tasked modern life.</p>
<p>Believe me, an 86% test score does not indicate an 'underachieving' boy. Could that statement be an indication of your preoccupation with super high performance? If you are preoccupied with super high performance, are you prepared to deal with his resentment and rebellion against such expectations?</p>
<p>If his behavior is suddenly worse, you must consider the possiblity that he does not want to switch schools--or that he is anxious about switching schools. Boys are pack animals. A day visit to the prospective schools may reassure him--or it may make him more anxious. In any event, many private schools require the applicants to spend a day in classes at the school as part of the evaluation process.</p>
<p>What is his father's opinion?</p>
<p>If it's any comfort, I can safely say that most of my anxiety about my bright boys was misplaced. As they are now nearly 18 and 20, they are rising to meet their potential faster than I would have ever believed.</p>
<p>Another thing about 13 yo boys -- many have not yet hit puberty. For my older son, puberty helped him IMMENSELY with organization, focus and planning. Over a six-month period at the end of 8th grade, it was as if the light finally turned on and he managed all these things himself -- and successfully. </p>
<p>There's the monosyllabic, grunting side of puberty, too, but at least he has taken responsibility. His way, not mine, but as I've told my kids many times, I'm not going to college with them, so they'd better learn to do for themselves! :*)</p>
<p>My husband's school experiences during the teen years sound just like your 13-year-old son's case. He was bored out of his mind with his classes, very disorganized, and did not care to think about what he needed to do to get into the college of his choice.</p>
<p>In fact, when it came time to apply to colleges, he knew that he had to start with a small one that would give him a chance to prove himself. Everyone knew that he was quite capable of being a high performer based on IQ, etc.</p>
<p>He attended a small college for two years, somehow realizing on his first day there that he needed to make some changes in his study habits, and even started studying on a strict schedule he set for himself. At the end of those two years, he was tops in his class and easily able to transfer to his dream school for his last two years!</p>
<p>He claims that he just had not matured enough to care about school at an earlier age, and that he needed to be on his own and away from family in order to "buckle down" and change his habits. Maybe a boarding school would be a good choice for your son because it does help one to have to deal with his own problems away from the parents constantly nagging and expressing their disappointment. If not, then maybe your son just needs time to mature, and he may need to start with a lesser-known college like my husband did. If he truly wants to go to a more prestigious college later, he will hopefully learn to work for it and will earn transfer admittance.</p>
<p>As CountingDown says, and I see this in one of my nephews, boys often lag behind girls due to hitting puberty a little later. My nephew actually finished ninth grade with some low grades due to not caring about his schoolwork. However, as a tenth grader, he seems to be "on the ball" and is finally starting to realize that college is not so far away. His mom had him evaluated last year at a university clinic to check on problems with learning, organization, etc. They stated that he was highly intelligent but was probably overly stressed from his very competitive private high school and that most of their really stressed clients came from his school! As a matter of fact, the school must have gotten word of this somehow, because the headmaster told the students this year that the school was making an attempt to cut back on homework loads so that students could have time for their sports, music lessons, and their families. So far, he seems to be much less stressed and happier overall this school year. I haven't read this entire thread, just bits and pieces, but is it possible that your son's workload is entirely too much each night? That makes many kids want to surrender to the pressure.</p>