<p>Sometimes, even that level of strong dedication can be worn down by a few years of dealing with the serious level of nasty rudeness from students, their parents, admins, along with public stigmatization through politicians and polemicists in our mass media along with other issues such as paying so much of one’s starting salary for school supplies which should really be the responsibility of the school district/taxpayers who supposedly want public schools. </p>
<p>I’ve seen some of that nastiness firsthand as a student/parent-teacher conference volunteer and according to friends who are still teaching…it has actually gotten worse in the last decade due to increasing competitive scramble for top grades and college admissions. Parents who sue pre-schools because something they did may jeopardize Ivy school admissions or in denial of a child’s bad behavior because “my darling son/daughter would never do that, how dare you say/assume that about him/her” just underscore my point. </p>
<p>There’s a reason why so many new dedicated teachers end up quitting before their 5th year due to burnout or otherwise not desiring to allow themselves to be subjected to constant nasty rude behavior as an occupational hazard from many comers.</p>
<p>Hence my reason for mentioning that to many teachers in the trenches…being considered a leader would be regarded as a nice gesture and a bit of an ironic cruel joke considering what they’ve experienced in their occupation.</p>
<p>with the ministers gone. Perhaps you were making a subtle distinction between Yale looking for ministers vs. ministers coming from Yale. Perhaps two people are using your screen name and you don’t read what each other writes?</p>
<p>I see the confusion. When I said Yale seeks future leaders, and that that includes more than the usual Big Wigs, some think I meant something like a ministry career goal is an admissions tip. Try seeing it as: leadership and leadership potential are the tip. Not simply potential to be a wealthy corp exec. -It’s the attributes that suggest you will have impact on others. And, gee, that’s not exclusive to high income or vast public authority.</p>
<p>And the point at the time was that Harvard similarly has broad definitions of “success .”</p>
<p>Hi, NJSue, re post #695, the friend is not old enough to have been at Wellesley 60 years ago! Perhaps I have the wrong one of the Seven Sisters. A group of women to which she belonged had a song that featured the line, “We’re saving ourselves for Yale.” Is that specific enough to identify the school? The friend said that the course was referred to as “Gracious.” That I am absolutely certain about. I think it was “Gracious Living.” It was certainly “Gracious [Something].”</p>
<p>Maybe it had become optional by the time she was there, but not yet extinct?</p>
<p>So if you could clarify further, lookingforward, is Yale undergrad admissions looking for future ministers like William Sloane Coffin, Jr., who was also a member of Skull and Bones, was mentioned in Time magazine, and is known to the quantum mechanic in the street, as an example of their broadened idea of “success”? Or in terms of undergrad admissions, would they consider a future minister who will act as a powerful influence on his/her congregation and serve a force for good locally, but who will never have a New York Times obituary nor be heard of outside of a 50 mile radius of his/her church(es), also to be the type of “success” they are looking for? Or is that not enough leadership?</p>
<p>True…but it takes an exceedingly strong person who can withstand handling constant nasty rude behavior from students, parents, admins, and politicians/polemicists in the mass media for even a few years. </p>
<p>I also forgot to mention how one’s constantly scrutinized even when they are officially off the clock…whether they’re criticized by local newsmedia/busybody parents for things which should be none of anyone else’s business such as going to a bar for having a drink after work with colleagues or friends.</p>
<p>Having said that, I see your new post. They are not “looking for ministers.” It’s leaders. Inspirers, changers, mentors- whatever form that takes. Not simply IB folks, the next great politician, corporate visionary, Supreme Ct Justice.</p>
<p>I get that they are not looking for ministers, explicitly. But their definition of “success” then seems still pretty standard to me, if they are looking principally for people who will be influential on a national scale.</p>
<p>Who said national scale?<br>
“We have to make the hunchy judgment as to whether or not with Yale’s help the candidate is likely to be a leader in whatever he [or she] ends up doing.” Our goals remain the same today. Decade after decade, Yalies have set out to make our world better. We are looking for students we can help to become the leaders of their generation in whatever they wish to pursue.</p>
<p>Sure, some of this is pie inthe sky, admisisons speak. But it offers a framework an interested kid can learn from.</p>
<p>Methinks your friend is pulling your leg. I was at Wellesley in the early 80s and there was no required course, or any course at all, on “Gracious Living.” In fact, Wellesley has never had an etiquette course on its books, according to former president Diana Chapman Walsh and alumna Judith Martin. What academic department would it go under? Anthropology? (Just kidding). I frankly don’t believe that the other Seven Sisters would have had such a course either. </p>
<p>Perhaps your friend belonged to one of the Greek-letter “societies” and they taught themselves etiquette as an extracurricular. As for the “Yale” song, I’ve never heard of it. I certainly can’t imagine any Wellesley student or alumna singing it, except possibly ironically.</p>
<p>Cnn note: “Though she majored in English, Miss Manners concedes that her true academic pursuit at Wellesley College was gracious living.” The irony being, “As a Washington Post journalist for 25 years, she covered social life…”</p>
<p>Alum Jane Shaw, from the 60’s reported this: The school’s mantra was “gracious living.” We had tea on Wednesday afternoons and sherry on Tuesday nights. We met men through “mixers” with nearby colleges, and one of the famed activities in the freshman body movement course was learning how to get into and out of a sports car. There was no career counseling to speak of—just a “placement office.” When I sought job advice in my senior year, I was told to get a Master of Arts in Teaching from Harvard (“You’re sure to get married in a few years, and you can always teach”).</p>
<p>As an atheist myself (who attends a religious institution by the way - look up Ethical Culture if you are interested), I’m always surprised by how many of my good friends from Harvard ended up as ministers or seriously involved in their churches. I know plenty working for non-profits. And leaders? Plenty of them, some leading in ways that make me very cross! I also know a lot of people in the arts - a function of my major.</p>
<p>“A group of women to which she belonged had a song that featured the line, “We’re saving ourselves for Yale.” Is that specific enough to identify the school?”</p>
<p>I’ve heard this song performed by the Vassar Night Owls, but I would not be surprised if it were also in the repertoire of singing groups at Smith and Mt. Holyoke, which have historically had close social ties to Yale. (There’s a still-extant group at Smith called the Smiffenpoofs that was inspired by the Yale Whiffenpoofs.) I would be more surprised to find it in a Wellesley group’s repertoire, because Wellesley has always associated much more with Harvard and MIT, for obvious reasons.</p>
<p>Well, the person I mentioned married a Yalie–so it was tongue-in-cheek, or at least semi-tongue-in-cheek. </p>
<p>Interesting that it is not specific enough to identify the school–just the era.</p>
<p>I thought she was being serious–she seemed to be at the time. It was well before the early 1980’s.</p>
<p>My father-in-law worked for Booz, Allen. Booz, Allen quite definitely had a program that he referred to as “Charm School,” which was intended to provide additional polish for the incompletely polished executives there. Also, my closest friend went to “charm” lessons in high school, which did cover getting in and out of a car. So I didn’t find the suggestion completely preposterous. Perhaps it was not an academic course, but something sort of like freshman orientation? But spread across multiple weeks?</p>
<p>mathmom, that is very interesting. I had heard (vaguely) of Ethical Culture Fieldston, but did not realize that there was an entire movement behind it. Will read more.</p>
<p>Re: Song + [whatever type of thing it was, in] Gracious Living–it was such a different era! Sometimes I forget how different.</p>
<p>So are we thinking learning how to write bread and butter notes, or how to get out of a car so that you don’t end up exposed somewhere on the internet, useless & old-fashioned lessons? Or just we don’t think they need to be college classes? Back in the 70s my sorority taught me how to smoke correctly. That seems pretty useless these days, but I still write notes. Since I do come from one of those southern families like PG alluded to way upthread, I wanted to point out it is not unusual for members of the current generation look like the students QM describes. Family pearls and tattoos aren’t all that incompatible in my experience.</p>
<p>so sad I missed all the MIT side treck I didn’t think to find it here but always enjoy QM’s posts on the subject.</p>
I didn’t think to find it here but always enjoy QM’s posts on the subject.</p>