<p>she doesnt have to get out of HS with three years of math.she can subsitute a different math class (Like the AP Stat). Its another case of the HS GC's here on Long Island thinking every kid has to take the hardest imaginable class schedule in order to compete for those coveted "Top 25,Top LAC" spots. That mindset here is rampant.
She can present a transcript with 4 years of Math.If Calc is then a req for her projected major, she can take it in college,with whatever extra help she may need being available to her through campus resources.
Dont let those GC's bully you and your D into another unhappy year.Been there,done that right here on LI in one of those highly rated school districts.</p>
<p>The Long Island GC's are like that even for the "average" Long Island kid who is planning on going to SUNY. GC was really pushing my d to take physics. That just wasn't going to happen as my d was ecstatic just to get through chem. We compromised, and d took 4th year science which included semester of forensics and marine bio. My d did take the "hardest" curriculum that she was able to handle. Though no AP's or honors classes, she took 5th year language- and took 4 years college prep in science, math, english and history. There were no fluff courses in her schedule
Actually not to be too hard on the Long Island GC's, I think they have a point. My d did get into all her Suny's (which kinda surprised me) as well as Towson, GMU and a few other schools where her stats were on the low range of accepted students. The fact that she did take a solid curriculum may have been the factor which tipped in her favor.<br>
As there are SO MANY Nyr's going for the same spots in the college admission process, our kids have to do everything they can to try to get a shot at the schools they are applying to.<br>
With that in mind, I think there is some flexibility in the curriculum such as stats, vs calc- or college prep calc vs honors. But IMO it is better to have 4 years of math- science and the other majors on your transcript.<br>
Never give a college a reason Not to accept you!! Good luck</p>
<p>Also- if memory serves me, wasn't there some kid last year who felt he did not get into Boston U because he did not take the 4th year in science or math (??).<br>
Please do not rule out checking out math courses at CUNY/ community college or local schools like St. John's or another NYC school (I don't know what borough you live in). I think it is important for all NY kids, to take the hardest courseload they can. If your d hates the HS math teacher, she if she can take a math course at another venue.</p>
<p>
[quote]
she doesnt have to get out of HS with three years of math.she can subsitute a different math class (Like the AP Stat). Its another case of the HS GC's here on Long Island thinking every kid has to take the hardest imaginable class schedule in order to compete for those coveted "Top 25,Top LAC" spots. That mindset here is rampant.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Can the child in question just bail out of a fourth year of math in high school and just take it online or at a community college while still in high school?
Is that not permissible in "the North" or something?</p>
<p>Merlin- It's probably permissible- but it's just not done too often up here. I would think it tough enough for a kid dealing with college apps, full day at school and then persuade them to take an additional course at local community college or on line. It's a tough sell. Also most NYC kids rely on public transportation. So to shlep on buses and trains to take a math course which isn't necessary for graduation may be too much to ask from a kid. I think Nassau Community college is trying to encourage HS kids to take more classes. It's probably a money maker for them, but it does allow HS kids to gain college credit.
Just re-reading--Why doesn't she take AP stats?? She probably will need stats to do science research in college. Assuming she's a senior, the colleges will see a 4th year math course-her grade may not go into final GPA and ranking (that ends in 11th grade at my kids HS) and if she can stay in the B grade range she should do ok.</p>
<p>Ahh
The things one learns, eh? </p>
<p>I do not know, I mean, just to learn the Calculus now is better than later.</p>
<p>Prior to transferring to another University and doing the online degree option I had a three in a half hour two bus commute, so I haven't empathy for those who can hop on a super quick subway and maybe take one bus. But, I can see where a High Schooler would be tired out from doing that, for sure. An adult, not too much. </p>
<p>I notice that the op hasn't really checked in on this thread, so maybe that means things have worked out? Hopefully so.</p>
<p>In our school district in NJ students are not allowed to take online or cc classes IF the class in question is offered at the HS. I tried very hard to get permission for my DD to take that Algebra II class through distance learning and the principal said absolutely not, that allowing kids to take classes because they didn't get along with a teacher "undermines the entire structure" of public education. Well, in theory I agree with that, but in practice, I wasn't any too happy. </p>
<p>On the other hand, if a student has, let's say, taken Calculus and the HS doesn't offer anything beyond Calculus, then the student would be allowed to take a more advanced class not offered by the HS. The guidance department told me that has been done in some cases.</p>
<p>A classmate of my older daughter's took pre-calc online through UC Berkeley Extension (her highest level of HS math), and although she was waitlisted at Harvard as a freshman she's just transferred there as a sophomore. I'm planning to have my math-challenged middle daughter take the same course with a tutor (and online calculus, too, if she can handle it). If your child is being tutored anyway, doing an online class requires only a little more time than a regular tutoring session. Our school allows students to take classes online if they are not a graduation requirement, or as a last resort, as a makeup for a failed class.</p>
<p>As far as a lousy grade derailing a kid - I was so relieved to learn that the UCs count only the second grade when a student repeats a class. There's still hope...</p>
<p>Wow, I'm overwhelmed by all the great advice and concern from all of you. It is much appreciated. It has been a very stressful week.</p>
<p>Part of the difficulty is that the math department head is new this year. The one who left was very familiar with D's woes with her pre-calc teacher last year and was supportive. The new person seems kind of overwhelmed, which I guess is understandable!</p>
<p>Another aspect is that D's school is geared toward a high-achieving math student. Obviously, she doesn't fit that mold, and then some. So not many courses are suitable for the run-of-the-mill math kid.</p>
<p>On Wednesday, D dropped the "easy" calculus course. That put her in a state of euphoria for the next 48 hours!</p>
<p>So now she is drifting along, math free, but I'm nagging her to try to sub in something.</p>
<p>She does have a few options, but she feels that AP Calculus AB (which most of the seniors in her school take) would be too hard for her and she would get another C. For some reason, her grade adviser didn't recommend AP Statistics (the only one offered), and D isn't sure why. I told D that stats are more real-world oriented, but she's not totally convinced.</p>
<p>On Monday D will try to see the math department head and figure out something, but I don't think her heart is in it.</p>
<p>I had no idea that senior-year scheduling would be so challenging. I guess it makes sense, if your kid is trying to juggle several electives that are given only certain periods.</p>
<p>As far as the environmental science thing goes: Many kids change their minds and switch majors. It may turn out to be too science and math heavy for her. But she's not interested as much in environmental policy. Maybe that will change too.</p>
<p>By the way, citygirlsmom, I was impressed by USF's offerings! And Princeton's, of course.</p>
<p>We're "positioning" her as an enviro kid to give her applications some direction. I'm not certain that's the way to go, especially in view of the math fiasco. </p>
<p>Way back when dinosaurs roamed the earth, as they say, I managed to pass two semesters of calculus in college, never having studied pre-calc. So perhaps D would be able to do the same, at the right college with supports in place, etc.</p>
<p>I will also continue to look into nearby community colleges and see what they offer, as well as the online sources mentioned in this thread.</p>
<p>A large part of this has been my realization that my goals for D are not the same as D's goals for herself. I told her that if she doesn't work hard now, she may not be so happy with her college choices in April. She understands that. But it's her decision. And if she decides not to take math this year, both of us will have to live with it!</p>
<p>This incident puts me in mind of the saying I learned on CC last year: "Love the kid you have, not the kid you wish you had."</p>
<p>Mac, keep in mind that your kid may be much happier next year at a college that more of a match/safety than a reach, if she is the kind of kid who is willing to do a reasonable amount of work, but doesn't want to be overloaded. Her comfort level and course load might just be better served with a college where her abilities put her in the top half of the student body.</p>
<p>This is a concern I have had all along with my daughter's reach-heavy approach to colleges -- my d. is a kid who like to have time for a social life. She's chosen to attend an elite -- and we'll see over time how she handles the challenge. The word "ambitious" showed up a lot in the teacher recs, so maybe she'll do o.k.</p>
<p>My son, on his second wind as far as college is concerned, is now attending a college way down the ladder of selectivity that happens GREAT for environmental sciences -- Humboldt State. He's taking some sort of introductory environmental science or forestry class that is required of all students that is quite easy, but he is enjoying it because apparently the prof. has a great sense of humor so is very entertaining in class. </p>
<p>I know we all want what is "best" for our kids, but sometimes "best" in terms of prestige or academics doesn't equate with what is "best" for the kid's comfort level and ultimate success. In hindsight, I wish my son had picked one of his safeties the first time around. At his first college, his friends said he was the most "laid back" person they had ever met ... which may have been a warning sign that he had the brains but not the motivation for a competitive academic environment. </p>
<p>At this stage I am not suggesting that you give up on whatever dreams you have for your daughter -- or that she has for herself -- but I do think that you should realize that she is going to have plenty of options without the math. It would be a good idea for to get the course catalogs for the schools she is interested in and review the requirements at each for an environmental science major. That should help with the decision process. </p>
<p>Also: hindsight advice.... let the math issue go. My d. didn't have any math her senior year, but we became concerned about her transcript so she signed up for an online course to make up for the deficiency in her schedule. Basically it was money down the drain - my d. never finished the course. Actually, I don't think she ever started. </p>
<p>Your daughter has been told by many people why the math is important. So she can make her own decision, weighing the pros and cons. Some of the choices she makes now may impact her choices later on, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. Sometimes we have to realize that if we have to push, maybe what we are pushing for is not meant to be. </p>
<p>Since you've commented that this all seems to be a Long Island thing, I would encourage you to look outside your immediate geographic area for colleges. It may be that there is a higher-stakes level of competition to get into a NY college than there would be to get into top colleges a little farther away.</p>
<p>my D is taking economics and AP statistics as a senior...she is getting LOTS of math, and it is real life stuff, for her interests, and the schools she is looking at, those course will be much more valuable, and she is a happy camper, throwing herself in to those two classes, where if she took the GC advice, she would have been miserable</p>
<p>Why the push for Calc, who the heck knows...</p>
<p>My daughter took plain old statistics in senior year, and not the AP version either. She'd always struggled in math, and had only made it through Algebra II/trig with the help of a very good tutor. But, here's the thing: she LOVED statistics! It just made sense to her in a way that algebra, geometry and trig hadn't, and she did quite well in the class. In fact, she liked it so much that she's already talking about taking a college level statistics class (a requirement if she majors in Psych, by the way). Taking just plain old statistics didn't seem to hurt her admissions chances.</p>
<p>I also want to point out that colleges receive plenty of applications from "lopsided" kids, who are either really strong in math and so-so in more verbal areas, and vice versa. Most of these "lopsided" kids do just fine in terms of getting into college because in reality "perfect" applicants are few and far between. This may not be apparent from reading about all of the "perfect" students here, but 99% of applicants have some warts here and there on their admissions profile, and college admissions officers are fully aware of this. So, really, let's just take a collective breath and not worry so much about one bad grade on an otherwise great transcript, or test scores that are below the national median in one subject area, or three years of math instead of four. There are plenty of great schools out there where none of these scenarios will matter very much, if at all. :)</p>
<p>I also want to second what CalMom said about finding the right academic fit for each child. Most kids find plenty of challenge at schools that don't fit into the "elite" category, and sometimes it really is better to be in the middle or towards the top of the class than at the bottom of it, especially if you are coming from a super-competitive high school where you've always felt like second best behind the "whiz kids."</p>
<p>Obviously, your child has already finished the class and is onto the next math class in the senior year. </p>
<p>For those of you in the same situation, my suggestion is--HIRE A TUTOR NOW! Many of those "A" students in AP Calculus this year are willing to earn $20 an hour to tutor a junior in Pre-Calculus. Even if you can afford only one day a week, pick the day before test day, so the tutor can review the student thoroughly for the test.</p>
<p>Also, Pre-Calculus is considered a "college-level" math class, even though you don't get college credit for it, like you do with AP Calculus. Most high schoolers spend no more than 1/2 hour on their math homework a night--if they do it at all. When you take pre-Calculus, the homework time should jump to a bare minimum of 1 hour for a student who does well in math and longer for those who struggle.</p>
<p>Another suggestion would be for the student to take Trigonometry and Math Analysis as separate subjects--Trig in the summer and Math Analysis over the entire next year. This breaks the standard Pre-Calculus course up into two semesters and a summer session--those extra 6-8 weeks can make a difference in handling the information.</p>
<p>If all else fails, visit the instructor, ask specific course-related questions, or invite the instructor over for dinner and ask for input.</p>
<p>Mac,</p>
<p>No matter what happens, make sure that she has met all of the requirements set forth by the state so that she can graduate. Has she taken and passed the math regents? If not this would be my first priority to ensure that she has the math regents credit and everything else can be worked around. IF she is looking to apply to SUNY, she probably has enough math credits. I suggest looking up the recommended college prep course work for the schools she is interested in and proceed accordingly .</p>
<p>If she is looking to do the 4th year of math, she could take stat. I know some of the most math challenged kids who have done pretty well in the course. Get a supplemental book like statistics the easy way or statistics for dummies which will really break down the course work for her that she can use in addition to her test book and notes.</p>
<p>calmom: what a wonderful post (especially "I know we all want what is "best" for our kids, but sometimes "best" in terms of prestige or academics doesn't equate with what is "best" for the kid's comfort level and ultimate success."). It's a lesson I figured out this year that I have to learn, and made me less paranoid about this whole process.</p>
<p>My S also had several Cs & consequently didn't get into several of the reaches he applied to. He got into his "safety" with good merit aid & is VERY happy at his school (his test scores put him toward the top 25% of the freshmen, but his grades make his rank decidedly lower). He's in engineering anyway, & the school has a very highly regarded engineering program with good placement of its students for internships & jobs.
Sometimes, things turn out really well, even if it's not quite the way we had imagined. So far, S hasn't complained of being bored or finding things "too easy," and has had time for socializing & IMing his sister & contacting us form time to time. His dorm floor is engaged in several outings & it seems like they're having a lot of fun together.</p>
<p>Thanks again for all your posts! The result is that D registered today for AP Stats (regular stats class is not offered at D's h.s.). She is a little nervous, but I assured her that she can do well, that stats is not as theoretical as calculus, and that she may even find it fun.</p>
<p>Behind all of this, I just hated the idea that a bad pre-calc teacher could hurt D's self-confidence so much. AND hurt her college acceptances, directly or indirectly.</p>
<p>Also, it wasn't just my opinion. The college adviser at D's school thought that her previous schedule (without the math) was a bit weak and would hurt her chances of getting into the college of her choice.</p>
<p>Also, I would echo avcastner's advice to get tutoring early. In retrospect, that's what we did wrong in pre-calc. I saw that D was struggling, but I assuming that if she worked harder, she would get it. Wrong. She needed help. We did get her a wonderful tutor, but it was too little, too late. The lesson: Don't delay! Thanks again for all the wonderful advice from CCers!</p>
<p>my D is in AP Stats after a bad calc experience and likes it....</p>
<p>Go statistics! My sister graduated from Harvard/Radcliffe magna cum laude. Hated math. Majored in Russian Studies. When she was in grad school at Cal for social policy, had to take stats. First math since high school. Guess what? She aced the class to the point where she was offered a TA job for pay. Teaching stats. For those of us who have trouble with equations - replacing words with symbols and numbers - the pictures that come with statistics can be the missing piece. You go, macnyc D.</p>
<p>Macnyc
Glad to read of this good result!As I said before,S did well in APStat after so much trouble with precalc. Woud up with a 4 on the AP test which got him college credit.Didnt hurt his admissions at all,nor his scholarship offers.
He made it through with no tutoring after needing weekly tutoring for the precalc.You'll just keep track and see how it progresses.And your D will be so much happier w/o that teacher/monkey on her back daily.</p>
<p>It really depends on the schools that your D is considering. Unfortuantely a bad grade in precalc can knock her out of the running from the most selective schools. With so many perfect apps, the job of the adcom in such schools is to eliminate where they can, and a "C" is a real flag, unless the student has something rare that the school really wants, and is willing to overlook the blemish. If your D's grades, class rank and test scores are truly way up there to make her a viable candidate for such schools, my recommendation is for her to drop the course, and home school the subject. She would need to be heavily tutored or homeschooled throughout the year and summer, and then needs to either take a college level math course or an advanced level math course at her school next year and excell showing that she can do the work. Hopefully she gets a more caring teacher on that go around. She should replace the math course with something fascinatiing showcasing her interests and abilities. I know a number of kids who did this at my son's school--they either did internship or fine arts subjects instead of math, and then took a finite math type course senior years first term and made sure they aced it. They were, however, all very committed to the disciplines that they were studying in lieu of the math that year. All of them made it into top schools, including Harvard. A "C" in precalc would have possibly knocked them out of contention for such school, so the strategy was deliberate and suggested by our school gc who routinely advises these alternative routes for kids with special talents.</p>