Growing up, I knew very few boys who made it to Eagle Scout. It was a rare enough achievement that it always was reported in our local paper. Town of 12,000, maybe a couple of boys a year made it, some years no one did, and their projects were impressive.
Now, it feels as though Eagle Scouts are falling out of the woodwork. In our own high school (about the same size as my own high school) there have been at least six per year in the years my own three were in high school. This is a very driven, high achieving area, and parents openly say things like, âWe arenât letting him get his drivers license until he makes Eagle Scout.â ⌠Which does make it seem as though it is a bit more parent driven than boy driven. On the other hand, the leaders are good men, good role models, and the scouts are a close knit group.
And mission trips? Sheesh, give me a break. And I have sent kids on a few. We live in one of the wealthiest counties in the country, thirty miles in either direction from two of the most poverty stricken, troubled inner cities around. Parents will spend a lot of money to send their kids somewhere else to do not-much-of -anything-of-value (I know this, because my husband has chaperoned a couple of these trips.) but wouldnât think of letting their kids participate in ongoing local projects of real value.
One such trip to post Katrina New Orleans featured a few parent chaperones who booked seperate hotel rooms because the local Habitat dorm style accommodations were not comfortable. Some of the girls didnâtâ want to do the heavy work assigned, so their moms took them to a nursing home to offer manicures. Really nice, and fun for the older ladies and young girls, but I sincerely doubt that âmanicuresâ made in onto the college applications.
The irony of the money the group spent to get there, compared with the very little actually accomplished while they were there was not lost on some of us. They would have done more for the people of New Orleans if they had sent the price of the trip per person to the local Habitat people to hire local people who REALLY needed the work.
Same here, eastcoastcrazy. There was only 1 Eagle Scout my age from from my high school and he was truly an exceptional person, but some of the large number of kids here who supposedly attain that honor truly strain credibility.
Credential creep. I donât think the Val from my HS (who went to Yale and is now a Federal Judge after a distinguished career) had a 4.0 GPA. It just wasnât possible back in the dark ages to go to HS and take the toughest courses and survive with a perfect transcript.
Now? You canât throw a bowling ball without hitting a 4.0 GPA at this same HS. And you would hit the kids heading off to the elites as well as the kids heading off to Stonehill and Wheaton and Bentley as well.
I love that term! I might have to borrow that. And so there you have it. It becomes an arms race. You have to decide if you want to compete with other folks, a certain segment of which, have a questionable relationship with the truth yet MYOB is supposedly good advice. Uh-huh. Sure. It is if you arenât sure, you donât want to go wild accusing people of things, and again, let me say it again, chances are no one is going to listen even if you do report it. Okay. Very true.
But you donât really need friends like that either.
You canât report everything but MYOB sucks. Just my opinion. Iâd rather do something about it, if possible.
And, just from this thread, I am thrilled my kids never did scouting. I never thought about it before but yeah, now that someone mentions it, that would explain why scouts have a rep as not being athletic kids ⌠scouting activities conflict with athletic events. My kids ran track, weight lifted and played football. I would not have traded that for anything scouting can offer, not even close.
Scouts learn outdoors skills- camping, hiking, and personal safety in these activities. My s has camped on the edge of a cliff, runs triathlons, and kept himself and his wife safe in a blizzard this past winter when they ended up having to camp overnight in this blizzard as they werenât able to get to their destination due to the unexpected storm (yes they checked the weather ahead of time with the park rangers). The safety and survival skills were honed during his scouting years. Anyone who is familiar with the Philmont multi day backpacking trips understands the challenge of this experience. So itâs great that some students are involved in other sports, but please stop denigrating the skills learned in scouting. Its a bit offensive.
Interesting. My husband was a Eagle Scout but scouting in our area is almost non existent. The schools here wonât allow scout troops to meet at the schools because of their polices on gays (changing now I know) and atheists ( and that one is unlikely to change) . There are a few scouting troops at some churches but it get little traction.
That was my sonâs experience as well. Leaders routinely completed merit badges for their sons and signed off on those âcompletedâ by the sons of other leaders. One bragged about stealing bath tissue from a convenience store on a camping trip (with a few of the boys) because they forgot to pack any.
The leaders lied about having council approval for a controversial, much debated Code of Conduct that permitted community members to spy on the boys during non scouting hours and report back to the Scouting committee so they could suspend the boys from Scouting for outside âinfractions.â They went so far as submitting one policy to Council (which was approved after this section was removed) then submitting the original to the committee (claiming it had been approved ) for a vote. Even when Council had proof in their hands, all they did was reject the unedited Code and insist the Troop use the approved one.
The leaders also used a contact at the high school to obtain private disciplinary records of the boys â against FERPA regulations (which can result in the loss of federal aid for your district) â and suspended them from Scouts for infractions committed at school. The parents of the boys who were affected reported it to the school and Council, and the contact was âretiredâ shortly thereafter but kept their place on the Scouting committee.
My son decided that he didnât wish to be judged by people with so few scruples.
Regarding OP: I think turning a blind eye to cheating is a mistake but if I understand correctly, while OP thinks the neighbors are cheating she doesnât intend to do anything about it. I donât really see what the purpose is in complaining if youâre not going to take action.
In this instance, thatâs probably prudent. I donât see any cheating. The charity isnât fake if they actually DID something. It may not be as much as OP would like, but the activities she knows about may not be the extent of it. Maybe they did make it a working vacation. I donât think there are any rules prohibiting that.
A difference of 20 points on the SAT is negligible and I think OP is doing her child a disservice by letting her believe she was cheated out of an acceptance. Even if the neighborsâ kidâs acceptances are all rescinded, it wonât change the outcome for OPâs child. She should do her kid a favor and reframe the acceptances of both kids.
There are a few Eagle Scouts at my sonâs school and itâs always a big deal, and makes the front page of the schoolâs website. His school does something that I really like and appreciate (I understand that others will disagree). They have a forced service component in the second semester of senior year. Yup, forced. And Iâm really ok with that because it IS service and the semester is chosen because the activity canât be on the college application. This ties in to Eagle Scouts because kids who are working toward becoming Eagle Scouts (I donât know the process), are allowed to do their service project at the appropriate time for that. However, the service has to be approved and observed by the school, which is true of all service projects. They arenât allowed to be fluffy or fake. My sonâs was to teach the music class at a local senior citizen center for the very poor elderly. It was a huge amount of work (as all the kidsâ projects are), and the school sent teachers randomly and frequently to check up on the kids and make sure they were doing what they were supposed to be doing. Anyone who fudges will not graduate and will go to summer school. There are a couple of kids who risk it and are very sorry every year. The school doesnât even call it volunteer work, because there is absolutely nothing voluntary about it, they call it service. But I think it is enormously beneficial because it involves planning, relationship building, humility and hard work. The service also has to demonstrably provide a benefit to the recipient, which in my sonâs case is a music class that someone else will continue after he is gone.
Discussion boards are about sharing experiences good and bad. I greatly appreciate when people cut the BS and are truthful about things. If sharing and hearing honest experiences, good or bad, is offensive, gee, maybe one shouldnât be so easily offended. In any event, for my part, I respect lots of things that scouts do. My kids would freeze to death in a snow storm and neither one of them could finish a triathlon. That is impressive! My kids are not great athletes. But they were good enough to get some good things done and, unlike the vast majority of their teammates, they did good things in the classroom as well. So, yeah, Iâm very proud of them and if I took a shot at scouts I am sorry.
scouting, mission trips, clubsâŚI guess it doesnât matter which you choose to do. The main thing that I would be interested in is whether any of those activities got you thinking critically. and did they get you thinking in a way that demonstrates your suitability for college level work? a âfakeâ eagle award, or GS gold award, or whatever might even provide a kid with an opportunity to exercise critical thinking. Itâs your intellectual response to the experiences you have that makes you a good candidate for college, donât you think?
GoNoles,
The irony is its easy for some to bash things (scouts, âfakeâ mission trips or what have you), but then put your head in the sand or say âoh its none of my businessâ. Guess its just better to badmouth them behind their backs. Glad you agree that that is not the right approach.
Not saying you are doing it, just responding to your post.
We are all proud of our kids. And I am proud of my eagle scout. He won a city-wide (and the metro area is several million people) community service award award for his work, and several (albeit small) scholarships for his eagle scout work.Very proud. He worked hard. If someone didnât, or their parents or the troop had weird , inappropriate rules, the district scout group should look into it. They should be notified. By someone who doesnât take the âits none of my businessâ approach.
I feel nauseated when I hear parents openly admit they wrote their kidsâ college essays. That is equally inappropriate, IMO. It amazes me that they are so cavalier about it.
JYM- the problem with the position you are taking- criticizing the ânone of my businessâ approach⌠is that the people who tend to complain DONâT have all the facts.
A charitable organization Iâm affiliated with got a lot of criticism when a âwhistleblowerâ complained, brought an alleged problem to the appropriate authorities, etc., did a lot of damage in the community by stating âfactsâ, etc. none of which were true. Yes- transparency is a good thing. But sometimes you need to trust the discretion of a social worker, religious figure, etc. if they vouch that a needy recipient is getting aid and they choose NOT to divulge the identity of the recipient in order to protect minor children, etc. Just because YOU donât know who is getting the aid doesnât mean itâs being spent in an illicit manner or that someone is âskimmingâ off the top.
So Iâm leery of folks who have a litany of injustices they want to complain about- especially like in the case of the OPâs where the âentire allegationâ is based on the assumption that 20 points on an SAT makes the OPâs kid a better candidate for a particular college. That seems to be the beginning and end of it- oh yeah, and that somehow a mission trip was bogus.
You have actual knowledge of wrong doing? Be my guest- take it to the proper authorities. A bogus charity? Thatâs why your state has an Attorney General, and an entire office which regulates charitable organizations. They know how to investigate- they can impound, they have investigative rights, they can subpeona. You just want to complain that someone is taking an illegal charitable deduction which got funneled to personal and not charitable purposes? Back it up with evidence and call the AG.
But a smear campaign without evidence? mmmmm⌠thatâs when I think âits none of my businessâ has some value.
Thats very unfortunate, blossom. Typically, Iâd think if a whistleblower reported a concern, the appropriate body would investigate without the disruption you describe, and if the allegation is found to be without merit, then they close the investigation.
As an aside⌠my s roomed with the son of the Enron whistleblower. So there are appropriate times to let the parties look into such matters.
Zooser: What about boys who turn 18 prior to last semester of senior year? They have to finish their project before they turn 18 so have to do double the work. I also thought that an eagle project had to be something tangible, not teaching people something.
I donât think this should turn into bash the boy scouts - there are many boys that work very hard on their own on their Eagle projects. There is parental involvement in many things people think are amazing - parents help kids set up charities, raise money, help write literature or program guides, and pave the way to an influential internship. Is ehlign with these things that different than getting a math tutor so a kid can remain in AP calc? Or a private baseball coach? Donât the Intel winners have adult mentors? Where is the line between allowed help and unfair advantage?
I think my son got a lot out of scouting, but the positions they took on some issues were a real conflict for me and eventually for my son. The camping trips (they went for a week each summer to a wilderness camp in the mountains) were a wonderful and challenging experience and were where the boys earned a lot of their badges.
There is a fine line between MYOB and whistle blowing. Bringing unsubstantiated or flimsy allegations can cost a family or an organization a lot to fight. Just because someone hears or feels that something is not right, actual evidence is needed. That being said, I totally agree that if there is real, strong evidence of wrong doing, MYOB is not the right approach. View the movie Spotlight for example.
Though cheating is cheating, I am not bothered much by the cheaters who are just average kids whose parents are trying to push out of mediocrity. Our culture is not very content with being average, so I understand the pressure folks might feel to distinguish their child in some way for the sake of pride, and yes for the sake of college admissions. These kids seldom rob anyone else consistently, because they (and often their parents) simply lack the drive and ambition to sustain the gaming effort. Once away from their parents or when engaged in activities in which their parents cannot help them, their true abilities and motivational level show through.
Personally, the ones that most bug us are the ones who ARE smart and accomplished kids but are greedily looking for that extra advantage to push them from the very good to great pile. They have the intelligence and motivation to sustain the cheating long enough to do real damage to an entire group of their peers, if left unchecked. One example that fortunately has been addressed (albeit imperfectly) by our school was that these ambitious kids would show up for a few minutes at a club meeting, sign in on the attendance sheet, and then run off to their other activity or activities which met at the same time. They made it appear as though at our school it was possible to do both of those things when in reality it wasnât unless you were a fake, shadow member. The honest, committed kids knew they couldnât be in two places at once, so they chose one EC or the other. Come time for college applications and selection for local scholarships, the shadow club members simply looked better and more engaged than their equally smart and involved classmates.
Iâm glad someone finally complained about the executives of the veterans organization who were living the high life instead of allocating the maximum amount of resources to the vets and Iâm glad whomever brought that to light didnât just trust the social worker, religious figure or executives involved just because they didnât have absolute proof. If an allegation is made, even without proof, why canât the burden of proving that things are right shift to the responsible parties? Just saying trust people is comically naive. Especially if we are talking about religious leaders. Trust them? Wait until one has 100% perfect information? No way. If I have a strong suspicion of wrong doing I am not going to sit around worrying about whose feelings might get hurt especially if people are being harmed in some way.
If things are right, they can verify that. That doesnât mean I advocate people whine and complain and accuse other people randomly. I am talking about where there is smoke there is usually fire. Get some evidence but donât just sit on your hands and let bad things happen because you are weak and lame. Just one guy $.02. Great thread, by the way.
I think the difference between OPâs situation and the instances we encountered in Scouting were that, as a leader, I had firsthand knowledge of what occurred, I actually had proof of ethical violations being committed against the children in my care, and I took a lot of time and trouble to do something about it. I understand that OPâs family doesnât think the project this student undertook was college worthy, but itâs a stretch to say the student lied on her app when they havenât read it. And Iâd be very careful about attacking the reputation of a teenager without proof that they actually cheated. Iâm not seeing any proof here. I get that the project(s) didnât meet OPâs standards, but they donât have to.
GoNoles and others- yes, complain to the authorities,let them open an investigation, and then keep your mouth shut (perfectly fine to engage with the investigators to keep them on their toes). But once youâve opened an investigation, what value is there in engaging all your friends and neighbors in a smear campaign? Once the financial documents are being evaluated and both donors and recipients are being interviewed, canceled checks being reviewed, BY PROFESSIONALS who do this for a living, what value is there in continuing to whine?
The burden of proof IS on the organization to track receipts and disbursements (as it should be). The burden of proof IS on the organization to identify all donations, provide expense reports of employees, show the documentation behind an allocation of resources. All appropriate. But someone who once saw a recipient in Stop and Shop buying a package of Charmin toilet paper instead of store brand has decided that the organization is âimproperlyâ categorizing its clients as indigent or needy?
And after the investigation the authorities conclude that every allegation was unfounded- do you think this organization is going to get ANYONE to sit on its board again? Chair its audit committee? Sign off on the 990?
So sure- OP should call the AGâs office, say that a bogus charity is actually a shell for a familyâs foreign vacations, and then sit back. This is a four hour investigation to verify what happened overseas, how much was deducted as a legitimate travel expense, other documentation. And then done. Nowhere near as complicated as the Catholic Church or the Veterans associations (presumably there are no paid employees here whose bank accounts need to be frozen).
But the wounded warrior investigation was done by seasoned journalists and the allegations were not made without proof. Not at all the same as someone alleging that some kid cheated on their college application simply because the complainantâs daughter did not get in and the charity was not as charitable as the OP thought it should be . If you have some proof, bring your allegations to one of the TV or newspaper reporters looking for these sorts of scandals and see if they can come up with the proof needed to go higher.
That being said, there is a fairly popular charity in my area and a friend invited us to their gala. I tried to check out the charity but it is too small to be on the charity watch websites. What made me somewhat suspicious is that while they list the âfamiliesâ they have helped, there is absolutely no information on how much money they brought in and how much they then gave out. For me, that is enough of a red flag that I would not attend the gala or send them money. I could ask, but not worth my time. However, I donât assume it is a scam that needs to be reported, just not something I would give money to.
As I said in the post, boys working toward Eagle Scout (or a religious project) do their service at the time required by the Eagle Scout or their house of worship - but they must meet the exact same guidelines of approval and inspection.
Every studentâs project is different and personal. My son is not an Eagle Scout, so he designed a music curriculum, secured funding purchased materials and taught it. Other students did things like build community gardens. One of the criteria is that it has to be completely individual to the student.