IB vs. AP

Parents Forum
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<p>Wanna look at Dallas?</p>

<p>Dallas International School
Plano East Senior High School
The Westwood School
Woodrow Wilson High School</p>

<p>Definitely a mixed bag! But where are the schools most everyone knows form the elite? Where are Hockaday, St Marks, Greenhill, ESD, Jesuit, or Highland Park? The magnet schools that are so dear to Mr. Washington IB? </p>

<p>El Paso?
Coronado High School
El Dorado High School</p>

<p>While Coronado is one of the two best public schools in El Paso, El Dorado is one of the worst schools in Texas. None of the better schools in El Paso would come close to adopting the IB program. </p>

<p>Perhaps the news is different in the suburban Shangri-La that are still able to flex the financial muscle brought by leaving the “pack” behind, but the picture in urban school districts shows the reality of the IB program.</p>

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<p>Mom2M, You wrote, “At our high school, the IB students do much better in college admissions than the AP track (we’ve been keeping records). And they tend to do better at college (hard to keep records, but we are trying).” Were those students compared to AP students who took APs completely across all subjects? And what is the population of AP students compared to IB? In other words, were the IB a self-selecting group because your school strongly encourages top students to go that route?</p>

<p>Turbo, why is taking classes outside a student’s comfort zone restricted to IB?</p>

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<p>Soccerguy, “At my high school unusually advanced 9th and 10th graders are allowed to take IB classes although not the IB tests.” </p>

<p>Is that true for foreign language, English and math or just social studies and science? </p>

<p>Frankly, it’s a bit useless in math or foreign language if they can’t even take the tests. Why wouldn’t they just take AP classes-- since the foreign language is stronger AND the students could test and get credit? (I suspect because if they took the AP level foreign language or math in 9th/10th grade, they would be beyond what the IB offers them in 11th/12th and I guess your school is trying to keep them on that track.)</p>

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<p>Yes, IB (and AP as it has moved beyond its original narrowly defined mission) highlight the fact that general academic standards in US K-12 schools are very low, and that they seem to be the main motivation for many US K-12 schools to even offer course work at a higher-than-the-usual-very-low standard. But what would you rather see in their place? Seems like most of the US K-12 schools would, for the most part, substitute mediocrity for all, so that only the wealthy who could afford elite (in an academic sense) private K-12 schools would be able to offer their kids a good K-12 education. Any attempt to set higher national standards like in Canada would likely fail against the politics of local control.</p>

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<p>Interesting question 2collegewego. Actually, the middle school teachers actively tried to discourage the kids in D’s graduating class, they thought the program was ending. And a few of the teachers just don’t like it. It was a mess. Really bad information (can’t do Ecs, can’t do sports, program ending, etc) We now send a parent or two to the middle school to answer questions. </p>

<p>Many of the top students went the AP route in her graduating year. Didn’t make much difference in the college admissions (hard to be exact–different ECs, different life events including the death of a parent). For example, of 5 students from this school admitted to Very Selective Private Univ 4 are IB (top 25 nationally). Of 9 admitted to Big Deal State Flagship (top 25 nationally) all but one was IB. The kids do ECs, play sports, have a social life. Just like the kids in AP.</p>

<p>I don’t think IB is for everyone. I do think it’s a great program for some kids. I do think it’s a better fit than AP for some students, at least as those programs are administered at this high school. Other top high schools in the area are adding the program. And we are in California, not exactly overwhelmed with money. Frankly, it just doesn’t cost that much for the schools to offer the program, especially since the parents pay for the tests (we also pay for AP tests). </p>

<p>The program is open to all (although the GCs do ask parents of sophmores who are not doing well to reconsider–they also ask the same parents to reconsider an all AP schedule). We actually have several “special” programs, including IB, AP, and an engineering academy. So we have top kids spread all over. Many of the sports kids go AP, although we typically have 1 or 2 recruited athletes among the IB grads each year.
For as far back as we have records, the IB kids do better in college admissions, and as near as we can tell, at college. It’s not 100%, it is a generality, which can mean nothing if it’s not your kid.</p>

<p>Really, I know I sound like a broken record–but you have to know how these programs are administered at the school your student will attend. How often are the classes (IB, AP, whatever) actually offered? Can you move between programs? What is the pass rate/diploma rate at your school? Are any key teachers leaving/taking maternity leave/not teaching the subject next year?</p>

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<p>I suspect the reason the advanced students don’t do the IB tests in 9th or 10th grade is because of the format of IB, it is a two year program commitment (ie all classes are completed in that two year window). Since we use the AP classes as the first year of HL sequences, and use AP Euro (sophmore year) I don’t know why they couldn’t do AP 9th and/or 10th and then HL 11th/12th.</p>

<p>How many students does your high school have on this track? And what does the high school offer for the students who have competed the APs in 9th and 10th grade? It seems like an interesting situation…do they have a dual enrollment program (one of the HS in our district offers that option).</p>

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<p>I’ll join your broken-record brigade. Besides the questions which you list, it’s also very important to know how long IB has been in place at that school. Again, it’s not a set of drop-into-place classes. It is an integrated program, one which American schools aren’t used to. It takes time to get it running effectively. If the school has been doing IB successfully for 10 or 20 years, then your child will get an excellent education. If less than 5 years, I’d head straight for AP.</p>

<p>On the larger point, though, let’s keep a little perspective. Both AP and IB are attractive to college admissions offices. Both will prepare the student for college work. AP is a better “fit” for some, IB for others.</p>

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<p>Agreed LasMa…AP and IB are both attractive to colleges admissions, and both prepare a student for success. Find out how they work in general and then find out how they work at your school, both of which involve asking a lot of questions, and then pick the one that best fits your student.</p>

<p>I know a lot more about IB than AP, although our D did both. She’s a full diploma candidate and will graduate in June. She’s happy with her choices, and looking forward to attending her dream college. I’m happy to answer questions if I can help, either on the forum or pm me. Just be aware that although I don’t believe IB is for everyone, I do have a bias–I definately believe IB is great option for many students.</p>

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<p>please point to the comparable AP requirement. Oh, there is none?
please point to the AP community service requirement. Oh, there is none?
please point to what subjects you need to get an AP Diploma? Oh, there isn’t a list?</p>

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<p>Of course, different high schools may offer different AP or IB HL courses, resulting in different fits for the same type of student.</p>

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<p>first, that was not my quote (it’s fine, I just want to clarify).</p>

<p>your IB score comes from more than just the test. Over the 2 year period there are other assessments as well that are graded internationally. The final tests that you sit in May only count for part of your score. If you max out the IB classes in your soph year, there is no reason not to take the AP exam also.</p>

<p>For example, the IB English score includes: 2 papers that are sent away to be graded, 2 oral presentations that are graded by your teacher (and externally moderated), and 2 “papers” that make up the IB exam. All of those combined will give you a score that is 1-7.</p>

<p>Why do you think the AP language exams are more difficult than IB? Your IB student can absolutely take an AP test, btw, they just have to sign up. They can even take AP exams for classes they haven’t taken!</p>

<p>And, the IB offers a second fluent language if you want to take that instead of a foreign language. So, just like you took IB English, you can take IB Spanish and you will be held to the same standards. Now, many American schools probably don’t offer languages other than English at that level, but that is not the fault of the IB program.</p>

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<p>that’s on the teacher, not on the IB program.</p>

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<p>What a non-sensical rebuttal, Soccer. Do you really believe the IB has a monopoly on research papers? Do you believe that that extended essay sets some kind of standards that selective high schools have yet to discover? </p>

<p>Again, take a look at where the IB is offered and where it is not. And, fwiw, do you have some numbers to shed lights on the percentage of IB students who actually present a successful EE high school essay? I guess one could calculate the percentage of IB diplomas.</p>

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<p>Of all registered candidates about 76% present a successful EE essay (see the statistical data on the IBO website). Again, this may vary depending on your school. Some registered candidates switch from full diploma to certificate.</p>

<p>And the exam pass rate is about 77%. Again, see the IBO website. And go ask your school about their pass rate and diploma rate. Ask the same quesions about AP.</p>

<p>About 59,000 candidates in the United States (May 2011, see the IBO website).</p>

<p>Interesting juxtapositon on the parents forum…the thread above this one is “why do so many students fail AP exams?” Really, everyone just wants the high school path that leads their student to success. Whatever path that is, and however “success” is defined.
For the daughter of a dear friend of mine, it’s walking across the stage at graduation. Healthy, smiling, happy, alive. Thanks to her drug-addicted birth mother, her options are limited. She works harder than any kid I know, including mine. She just works on a different path. Find the path that works for your student.</p>

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<p>Soccerguy, the IB foreign languages are at a lower level than AP, as verified by the AP/ IB teachers and my kids. Once the AP is taken and passed, there is no reason to take an easier course (not exam, course) and AP courses include components in speaking, reading, writing, culture and literature also. Each of my kids is already fluent in at least two languages. (They have each studied 4-5 languages, have lived overseas and are fluent in anywhere from 2 to 4 languages.) My kid didn’t want to have to wait until grades 11 and 12 to complete the IB 2nd language requirement. (I did have one who did AP in the first half of high school in one foreign language and did IB in the second half in another foreign language.) </p>

<p>Mom2M, I’m sorry, I’m still not clear: Did your school compare AP kids who took APs across all disciplines? Like I said, this is key. If a student excels in just a handful of advanced subjects (and, really, you can take 5 APs and still have them all be in math/science) and the rest are on grade-level, they are not competitive for top colleges and the IB student would be stronger. But a student could also do what my kid did-- max out APs in foreign language early in high school and double-up on science later in high school-- and be very competitive. (Same kid did an outside competitive research program which involved a series of research papers guided by college profs.) </p>

<p>Just as a matter of background, my kids have attended more than 1 public school. Both have had IB programs for over 25years and at least one is among the most successful in the country. I’m still not impressed. In one program, the students are self-selecting ; in the other, parents are told how ‘rigorous’ it is. The program is rigid. The propaganda is tremendous and the standards aren’t higher than AP. Our high school has IB, AP, a research science program, an engineering track… and the IB kids really miss out on a lot by being locked in. It’s fine as an option, but I don’t buy that the courses are stronger than AP. </p>

<p>At the competitive program, the primary benefit is that the kids are taking classes with kids as bright as they are. (That’s actually a substantial advantage since it’s a magnet.) At the program open to the whole school, I actually think it’s a good program for a kid who is NOT at the top of the class-- a kid who needs some help bridging the gap from high school to college. I think it holds back the standout kids who are ready to take Calculus in grade 9, who can max out foreign languages early or who are gifted in the arts.</p>

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<p>I would put it differently; in AP, one can load up with AP’s in one area where they’re good and completely avoid (or nearly so) areas they’re not. IB sort of requires one to be ‘good’ (whatever that means) in 6 different areas (or 5 of 6) so this is a bit more ‘restricted’ in that one has to do well in multiple areas they may not like. Add to that the 2 year versus 3-4 year timeframe and you’ll see the IB is more ‘restricting’.</p>

<p>Another aspect - again, going from what we were told as prospective pre-IB and IB parents - is the tests and homeworks are more critical thinking and writing rather than AP Basketweaving with lots of multiple choice questions; one has more variability to worry about in non-multiple choice tests. </p>

<p>We’ll see how it goes. DD2 is looking into a good number of AP’s just to keep things interesting.</p>

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<p>2collegewego
I really am trying to answer your questions. We do understand the the differamce between a complete AP schedule and selected AP classes. We try to limit the comparision to full schedules (all IB, all AP). It is complicated by the fact that this is a large public high school without Naviance that serves a wide population.<br>
I don’t know why someone didn’t offer your kids a dual diploma for bilingual students. </p>

<p>The IB program, like the AP program varies from school to school. At my D’s school, where she has taken both AP and IB courses, IB is substantially more challenging. She loves it. It’s different than AP, more critical thinking, more essays. She loves it. IB teachers are wonderful, class sizes are smaller. She loves it. AP courses were fine, she liked them, but IB suits her. It sounds like your school(s) were different. You found the path for your kids which is great. Each school is different, it is best to investigate the school your student will attend.</p>

<p>By the way, we are fortunate to have an amazing principal, who makes himself and his staff crazy to make sure the students have as many options as possible. The IB students are on student government, the newspaper, yearbook, cheer, sports, mock trial,theatre, and are in the engineering group. In addition to all the other clubs, etc. It’s a little crazy, but they make it work. </p>

<p>If you are looking at IB for your student, go find out how it works at your school. And do the same thing for AP. Is that amazing AP Physics class with the wonderful teacher only offered during XXperiod, when your student will be on a bus to a sports competition? Is the world’s greatest Theroy of Knowledge teacher taking a sabbatical the year your student will be in TOK?</p>

<p>Oh, and find out the basics about each program. For example, IB is a twoyear program. Generally, students take 3 SL level classes and 3 HL (they can do 4 HL). Those SL classes are only a year long. Which leaves room in the schedule for other things. </p>

<p>As for IB not being more challenging than AP, all I can say is she took AP tests in her HL subjects last year. She’s been working hard, learning a lot and exploring additional material in those subjects this year. And doing TOK, finished her EE (which I don’t think is that big a deal), and explored some other classes. Oh, and she finished her CAS hours. I do think it’s an odd comparision…I would say SL and AP are close, but HL is a whole different level. In some subjects I would say that SL is easier than AP. But not HL.</p>

<p>Broken record, again! Find out how all this works at your school. Once you understand the IB basics, and the AP differences, go ask questions. Think about the tests your student does well–essay or multiple choice? More Critical Thinking or less? How rigid are the programs? What is the exit strategy?</p>

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<p>AP* and IB HL are commonly accepted by colleges for credit and placement, but IB SL is not.</p>

<p>*Of course, what are commonly called the “AP lite” tests are less likely to be accepted for credit and placement.</p>

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<p>There are those who also testify that IB Bio HL is less rigorous and less demanding than the respective AP test.</p>

<p>Sample Size: CC.</p>

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<p>The issue here is that, the AP and IB is about all we have as a national curriculum. The variation between individual school systems is too much to hope for the GPA or class rank by itself to be meaningful. </p>

<p>Our school district is tough. Our HS is ranked in the top few hundred in the rankings and getting a 3.0, let alone a 4.0, is not easy. Yet, despite graduating nearly 1000 kids a year, only about 1% go to the top 20 US universities or Armed Forces Service Academies. That’s right, 10 kids, usually 3 or so to the Ivies, another 4 to the Northwesterns, Dukes, and the like, and 2-3 to the Academies. </p>

<p>If I moved 30 miles away to a rural area my kids would be academic aces; they would have a total of 3-6 AP classes, as opposed to every one offered by AP, IB, Project Lead The Way, and other similar. But they could ace it without even thinking about it. Or they could go to the parochial which graduates good GPA’s but is just as easy as the rural schools (as witnessed by those that have attended both) or the prep schools (where one’s money goes, ehem, a long way). So, what’s an admissions guy or gal to do?</p>