<p>I would also add that as long as my son's former football coach (a 12 year NFL veteran) is coahing at his H.S., that Ivy will never be able to recruit at that school because of what happened. </p>
<p>CD</p>
<p>concerneddad -- I'm really just stunned to hear these things, and wish I had had access to such information before we began the recruiting process. I really hope that things go well for Dizzy-son and Speedcoach-son as well as the other recruited athletes represented on this site, so that threads such as this can have a happy ending for those viewing them in the future. </p>
<p>Let me ask you this:</p>
<p>Do you think your son's academic standing or lack thereof played any part in what happened to him in his Ivy experience? My naive and trusting self keeps wanting to think that these coaches shepherd the kids as far as they can and then perhaps lose control in the admissions office process because of the academic standards required at the Ivies.</p>
<p>Also, when you were told he was on 'the list', was it the 'short list' or 'the list'. From what I've read, there can apparently be more than one list, the 'short list' being the preferred one. Of course, as has been mentioned, no one knows where they are located on that list, which is yet another variable.</p>
<p>Too many variables for my taste.</p>
<p>Dizzymom: No, I do not think academics played any part in it. He had a 1500 SAT I and was in the top band in the Ivy's banded system of recruiting. His other scores and GPA were substantial and well-within the upper 50% of admiited scores for any of the Ivies. And, his EC's were very good.</p>
<p>The problem was a coach simply lying, as acknowleged by the Athletic Director, and hence his phone call and apology.</p>
<p>Ultimately, it worked out for the best, and if I was a betting man (and I am), those coaches will have a shorter career at the school in questions than the life of a fruit fly (relatively speaking).</p>
<p>But, as I said before, at the Div. III level, I could have "gone to the bank" on the honesty of all of the caoches we encountered. I would, and will, speak to any parent about the integrity of these coaches and the way they conduct their recruiting.</p>
<p>CD</p>
<p>CD</p>
<p>Very disheartening when you hear stories like the one you mentionned. In the end, I am glad that it worked out. Sadly life is full of dishonest people and bad situations. As I mentionned previously, we are taking a "leap of faith" with this coach because that is where my son wants to be. He turned down better assurances from three other ivy coaches for a place on this list. It was my son's decision and hopefully it will work out but nothing will surprise me. As a lawyer, I have seen enough in 30 years of practice to make one very cynical but I never let that cloud first impressions of people. I have tried to instill that in my son. Go with your instinct if it feels right.</p>
<p>cd -- a 1500 sat football player sounds like a coach's AND Ivy's dream come true! The call from the AD was no doubt very small solace. My eyes have definitely been opened. </p>
<p>When this year's ED notifications are received, maybe there can be a <em>tastefully done</em> thread on which Ivies are known to be more reliable, recruiting-wise, if there is any pattern in that regard.</p>
<p>My friend's daughter was recruited for her Div I sport, had some national level exposure.</p>
<p>Top 5 private school coach put her #3 on a list of 15, told her to get the SATs above 1400. She did not break 1300, probably mostly As, with some Bs, lots of leadership, not great ranking, maybe top 20-30 in small private. Did not get in, was really surprised as coaches were extremely encouraging, but they had been up front about the SAT threshold.</p>
<p>Top public admitted her and she made the team, but no athletic scholarship, that will be earned based on first year results.</p>
<p>speedcoach, as an attorney as well, I should have known better too. But when someone shakes your hand and looks you in the eye, asks for tape, talks with the H.S. coaches, and on and on, and then flat out lies you learn a tough lesson. But, having said that, I do NOT think that is the norm. I think this school, and these coaches in particular, are a problem and one I was warned about by other Ivy League coaches. I choose not to believe it because I just thought it was an attempt to "win" the recruiting wars. After it was all said and done, I called to apologize to this other coach because he had been right all along.</p>
<p>So, again good luck to everyone's kid, it is way more likely than not that if the coaches said they did something, they will follow through. I really only related this story because Dizzymon seem incredulous that an Ivy" would do this.</p>
<p>Dizzymom: I do not know about dream come true, as I suspect that what really happened is that the coach got a commitment from another student who was stronger at his position than my son. My son's academic stats ( and probably his talent level) was more a dream come true for Wesleyam, Wash U., and Pomona -- schhols that do not have the "banded" system that the Ivies have, and have less sway with the admissions office than most Ivy league coaches have. </p>
<p>CD</p>
<p>I don't want to divulge too many details for a few outstanding reasons even though my son is now out of college and all of this business occurred 4 years ago. I did not have any coach outright lie to me or to my son, and frankly, I don't know personally of anyone who did. But the fact of the matter is that your student's place in the rankings is only true at the moment the number comes out of the coach's mouth. What do you think is going to happen if that day's mail brings three kids more promising than your kid, and exactly what the coach feels his team needs? </p>
<p>Athletes who are truly at the top of the game are fought over and get all kinds of concessions, but most kids are not in that category. Most athletes in the top schools (programs like Duke basketball excepted) are excellent students who get a bit of a tip for all of those years of working at a sport and who benefit the college with all of the time working at the sport at the college. I did not find our experience with our son "harrowing" for several reasons. I did not know a lot of what was happening as it happened. I did not really expect a big boost for his being an athlete as he was not at the superstar level, his sport is not one of the big deal ones, and he was not applying to schools where sports is the main religion. So I was really grateful for whatever we got, and the coaches did provide a great entry point and contact for my son in the college process. And I am still grateful for all that the sport provided for my son while he was in college, even as much of his time was spent in practice and competition. I sincerely doubt he would have been studying during that time and the bond that the team had really helped him in organizing his time. </p>
<p>Hopefully, I did not come across as bitter about the experience as I am not. But I hear a lot of envy about kids with an athletic hook and I hear parents expecting a much easier "in" with athletics, and though it is definitely a big plus, it does not mean that the kid is going to automatically get what he wants. It also bring in some factors that cause more stress and work. I always sent the coaches an unofficial copy of S's transcripts, grades, along with a sports resume and other info which meant twice the mailings. We kept the coaches apprised of everything as the year went on. And we only got two coaches who made any kind of commitment, and nothing in writing. No true likely letters which come from ADMISSIONS not the athletic department. I believe I mentioned that Brown actually sent out a letter telling prospects that no correspondence from ANY department of the university other that admissions, can give out any assurances of admissions, because there had been some problems in that area.</p>
<p>Jamimom,</p>
<p>No, you don't come across as bitter, just savvy. You have a great perspective on your experience. It's heartening that for all the thrills and spills, in the end, everyone says their student is happy and in a place that is a good match for his/her talents and academic promise. That's what matters in the long run -- I just have to remember that if we spend Christmas Eve and Christmas day cranking out essays and applications...</p>
<p>Not savvy at all. Would not want to have to go through another one of these. Everything I learned basically comes down to not knowing what is going on except in hindsight.</p>
<p>Amen to all.</p>
<p>Just want to add the Haverford tennis coach is scary.</p>
<p>BHG, can you please elaborate?</p>
<p>Well, she heavily recruited my daughter. We received many letters and calls. My daughter was not a top notch player or ranked, but had been a good player on varsity for 4 years.
This coach is thought of very highly by the U.S.T.A., P.A.T.D. but I don't like her.How I got to know this coach was at a tournament at Haverford she was running.I got the impression she would never cut anyone any break no how no way.If it's pouring cats and dogs for two days you have to be right there looking at the flood on the courts 5 minutes before a tournament to see if it is raining. In fact, I don't think she is a very nice person at all. I also believe she was brought up in the military or was in the service for many years- not that there is ANYTHING wrong with that! Just my gut feelings, we are all entitled to that.</p>
<p>Moral of the story.Get to know the coach. Before you make a commitment ask other players about the coach and his/her routine with practice, training, etc. what are they like on trips, has anyone got injured during practice, etc. Do they yell at you if you are sick and can't play or do they swear at you during matches. Get to know if the working coach/athlete relationship looks like something that could work for you.</p>
<p>Everyone is entitiled to their own opinion.</p>
<p>I have been one of the many viewers of this great thread. You parents are terrific for sharing this info. My athlete daughter is a junior so we will be going through all this fun next year. </p>
<p>And Jamimom, last year I had the "pleasure" of shepherding D#2 through the BFA musical theater/acting auditions. Which do you think is more stressful?! I thought the audition process was harrowing but the athletic recruitment one seems ever so much more complex. Good luck to your seniors and please please please post if your students' dreams worked out. Or if the coaches were not truthful.</p>
<p>thanks everyone for sharing their stories ... it has been really eye opening.</p>
<p>There are a bunch of different processes intersecting here. Using the IVY league as an example ... 1) The NCAA has academic minimums to play in college (for most of the kids discussed in this string this is not an issue) ... 2) the IVY league has quotas of how many athletes can be admitted to each school at varying degrees of academic performance below the typical admitted student ... and there is some splitting by specific sport (football and basketball especially) ... 3) each school can manage those slots and athletic admissions as they want (as long as they meet the NCAA and IVY league rules).</p>
<p>So from the outside trying to decipher what happened in these stories is tough. Coaches certainly do (and should) recruit multiple kids for each opening they have. A recruit could be one of multiple people considered for a position, one of multipe people considered for an "admission slot", or given a small advantage in the regular pool of applicants. And as kids (or parents) we probably won't know which is the case ... much like general admissions look random from the outside but with complete info it would seem much more consistent</p>
<p>Thanks BHG. </p>
<p>My D did speak to a student on the team who loves it-- so you never know. Actually my D absolutely ADORED her frosh coach who was a real hard a** (quite critical and demanding, and yes--scary!) but also (1) very fair, (2) an excellent player, and (3) a really skilled teacher/coach. She was much less happy with a touchy-feely friend type who did not COACH her. I know other girls on my D's team who hated the frosh coach for the same reasons my D loved her. My D likes to know where she stands and would rather get real, if infrequent, praise than be stroked all the time when it may not be deserved. However I really appreciated your candid comments!</p>
<p>My son is a hs junior, too. I also went through music auditions with D (now a soph at Rice) two years ago. I didn't think it was very stressful at the time since I didn't know any better! With all my new knowledge from these boards I keep telling her I don't know how she got into college without my heavy involvement! She was at a boarding school and did all her applications (I never even saw an essay) and arranged for all her audition trips. I find this athletic thing much more stressful. You are all going to be really interested next year when my son has done his applications, because he has some interesting circumstances. He will NOT be a 1500-1600 kid (should be well into 1400s) and has a somewhat checkered past from which he has recovered beautifully. He will be an attractive athlete and cares very much about his running, but is also committed to attending the best academic institution (for his interests) to which he can gain admission. I agree with the importance of getting to know the coach and finding out as much information as possible. We are lucky because S's high school (private boarding) coach knows many of the college coaches in the NE and has good relationships with them. The college counselors at S's school are almost like agents, having placed strong athletes in many fine colleges (the school is a wrestling powerhouse). I am optimistic that all of your kids will be admitted to the right schools and that you will know soon! Thanks SO much for all the thoughts here. Karen</p>
<p>There are two ends of the ivy athletic recruiting spectrum. On one end is the Type A athlete with academic credentials good enough to have a chance to get in without the sport (ie. 1500 + or -, 700-800 SAT II's,etc.). Generally these athletes are not your top athletes in the sport but are well above average. The other end of the spectrum are your Type B athletes who are at the top athletically but less than stellar academically and certainly would not be accepted if it were not for their sport. That is range and all of our kids fit somewhere in there for better or worse. </p>
<p>The problem facing coaches and adcoms is that the supply of Type B is far and away greater than Type A. So the balancing act involves lists, negotiations, promises (sometimes false), etc. Not a very pretty process with all kinds of potential abuses as has been outlined in this thread. I have seen GC's act more like sports agents, parents who speak to the coach more than the kid and HS coaches trying to manipulate the system. I for one will be happy when this whole process is over.</p>
<p>Good simplification of the scene, speedcoach.</p>
<p>Depending on the school, some B's become A's...</p>