Is penalty for not being a NMF at OU too large?

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of Oklahoma
1

OU is on my daughter’s list of potential colleges for an Engineering major next Fall. However, my advice to her is that OU penalizes high stat students without NMF status much more than most schools, making it a poor choice financially.

DD didn’t prep for the PSAT test as a Junior and came away from that test with a National Merit Commended score. From what I can tell, missing one question on that single test as a Junior costs her at least $60k over 4 years at OU (likely much more).

While her current stats likely compare well with any of the NMFs (1510 SAT, 800 Math2 subj, 4.0 UW GPA, 10 AP classes, great ECs, etc, etc), due to the fact that she didn’t score to her potential on the PSAT, she is paying a financial penalty relative to those who have NMF status at OU.

I have no issue with OU treating NMF well. But, if the difference between a NMF and someone who has the same stats, but doesn’t have NMF status is so great ($60k minimum), I don’t think OU is a good financial choice such candidates.

A school like Alabama offers much better merit scholarships without the NMF designation. While they offer a bit more money to NMFs, it is not significantly more.

I have to wonder, am I the only parent who sees this?

My advice to DD is to choose Alabama over OK simply for financial reasons.

I wonder how many potential good students OK loses to this large merit scholarship discrepancy between NMFs and those with similar status, but sans the NMF title?

2

Colleges have no obligation to give any merit aid, especially to OOS students.

What’s the point in comparing two school’s merit structure?

3

I’m sure OU does lose some ‘close-but-no-cigar’ kids to UA or others. But then again, my D’s instate flagship loses many to UA (all high stat) and some small number to OU (NMFs) because of their merit scholarship structure (they spread it thin across many.) You just have to look at what’s available for your situation and choose the best fit from the financially feasible options. UA would have been less for my NMF kid- but she preferred the program and the student climate at OU.

4

@ColoFatherOf3, it’s interesting that you choose to think of OU’s scholarship program as “penalizing” non NMFs. You stated your D didn’t prepare for her junior PSAT, and she missed out on this scholarship opportunity. Frankly your focus on what NMFs get at OU vs non NMFs sounds like sour grapes. If OU is your D’s first choice and you can afford to send her there, why are you complaining that she won’t get as much merit aid as the NMFs get? Your D is not unique; every year many thousands of students miss the NMF range by just a few wrong answers on the PSAT. Complaining about the “financial penalty” of a merit scholarship program isn’t going to get you anywhere…if OU were having trouble attracting its desired student population I’m sure the scholarship program would be changed accordingly. Instead of focusing on a perceived “penalty”, look instead at the merit aid your D is qualified for at OU and other schools.

5

Each person needs to do their own subjective comparison of benefits to costs to determine whether a school is a good deal. The costs that someone else faces are not relevant, unless there is a goal of minimizing sour grapes.

6

You can jump to so many other similar conclusions (e.g., SES, first-in-family, etc., etc.) that you will drive yourself crazy. Just move on and find a school that fits academically and financially. There are tons of great schools.

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@ColoFatherOf3 My DD attends OU as a National Merit Scholar she made up her mind that OU was the place for her but knew we could not afford OOS tuition and that she had to make NMF to make it work so she prepped long and hard for the PSAT. DS18 is on the bubble for NMF so his top pick is a school that has a great NM offer but also offers very good merit aid (enough to make it affordable for us) to high stats kids in case he doesn’t make the NM cut off.

To me your post suggests you didn’t have the money talk soon enough with your DD. If you would only approve of OU from a financial standpoint if she made NMF you should have made the clear to her well before October of her Junior year so she would know she needed to prep for the PSAT. I don’t have sympathy for students that don’t prep for the PSAT and then complain that they didn’t make National Merit.

8

I’m not worried about finding a good school, we’ve got a good list and any school on that list will be great (including OU). In our search as consumers of higher education, cost is a factor and you cannot help but look at “discounts” that you are not entitled to, but others are. When you compare the difference, it is obvious that OU places a huge premium on NMF status. OU seems to do this more than any other school we’ve looked at, given the magnitude of the difference in cost between NMF and non NMF.

My reading of this difference is that OU wants to continue their reign as the top choice school for NMFs. One of the ways they do this, is to create a very large difference between merit scholarships for NMFs vs non NMFs. Pricing your product like this entices NMFs, but also “turns off” non NMFs (at least it does for me).

My point in this thread was to find out if any other “consumers of higher education” saw this discrepancy and whether it influenced their decisions or not. In our case, it does influence our decision away from OU. Maybe we are unique and maybe it can be perceived as “sour grapes”, but that is how we interpret the pricing structure OU has setup.

9

While paying for OU certainly isn’t a walk in the park for lower income in state students, it can be done. The same is hardly true for Alabama which decided that it would fund enormous merit scholarships for OOS students at the expense of providing need based financial aid to Alabama residents. Frankly, I see that as a massive dereliction of the duty of a state flagship, but whatever, I don’t live in Alabama.

By the way, plenty of non national merits at OU, particularly the in state students, resent the NMF scholarship. A common joke is about what the university president does when he sees a national merit student.

10

Many schools have great scholarships that are much better than those offered to NM kids UT has the 40 Acres, U Miami (FL) has the Stamps, UTD has McDermitt… Most very highly ranked schools offer NO merit What-So-Ever. It’s a supply and demand thing, if the school needs to attract more high stats kids they will figure out a way that works best for them, that’s the way it works. OU gets enough NM kids to meet it’s needs so no need to seek out more high stats kids at their taxpayers’ expense. Alabama feels it needs to offer merit to kids outside of the NM pool so they do. I’m not sure why awarding a scholarship to one group of people but not to others is considered a turn off other than it potentially makes it unaffordable to you. Many schools give some mighty nice football scholarships that you DD will not qualify for, do you find this a discrepancy too?

11

@3scoutsmom regarding this response:

“To me your post suggests you didn’t have the money talk soon enough with your DD. If you would only approve of OU from a financial standpoint if she made NMF you should have made the clear to her well before October of her Junior year so she would know she needed to prep for the PSAT. I don’t have sympathy for students that don’t prep for the PSAT and then complain that they didn’t make National Merit.”

Try not to jump to too many conclusions on the basis of very little information in this thread. We certainly did have the money talk and she can afford OU with the scholarship OU would give her. That is not the issue here. Also, nobody is complaining about not making NMF in this post. We don’t need NMF status to afford any of the schools on our list.

I realize that I may be offending some OU die hards with this thread, but try to keep an open mind and see things from a different view point.

The point of this thread is that my interpretation of OUs pricing of their product is that if you are not a NMF, you will pay a significant premium over those who are to attend this school. I suspect there are other perks that are not available to high stat kids without NMF status as well. This pricing structure, while attracting NMFs, does also have an affect of delivering this message to non NMFs who are high stats: “We love NMFs at OU and if you are not a NMF, you will pay significantly more for tuition”. Or, put more harshly: “If you have high stats, but are not NMF, don’t bother coming here”.

While we can certainly afford the tuition, the fact that such a premium is placed on NMF status seems like they value the results of a single test given on one Saturday morning more than they do the entirety of a students accomplishments (like actual SAT or ACT test scores and grades, ECs and the rest, which comprise 4 years of effort rather than a single Saturday morning test).

Don’t get me wrong. I think if DD had gotten the NMSF qualifying score, OU would be higher on our list, for this very reason. However, not making the cut makes OU less attractive than other schools who do not place such a premium on the title.

While trying not to offend, I’m just wondering of others who have had kids in a similar situation have come to similar conclusions, or if I’m just being ungrateful for the nice scholarship OU is willing to provide.

12

I guess I’m not tracking…I don’t hate on BMW, I just opt to purchase a Honda instead. Gets me there, with some features that are much better than those in a BMW. It’s a fine Honda. It gets me where I want to go, and has everything I want, except maybe a few things that, in the end, I can just do without.

ETA: No.

13

@ColoFatherOf3, you wonder if you are just being ungrateful. Yes, yes you are being ungrateful. Your D did not study for the qualifying exam for NMF scholarships and you are complaining that her merit scholarship from OU is much less than it would have been if she were an NMF. You have clarified that you can afford to send her to OU with her current merit offer there, but you want sympathy or agreement that OU is “penalizing” her because her other stats are similar to NMF. Your D is a high stats kid with a nice merit scholarship to a school you can afford, and you are complaining about the school instead of being grateful for your good fortune. You can make yourself crazy looking for ways to be bitter about what you don’t have, or you can remember that your D has a bright future and the good fortune to have received scholarships to a school you can afford.

14

@ColoFatherOf3


[QUOTE=""]
DD didn't prep for the PSAT test as a Junior ... due to the fact that she didn't score to her potential on the PSAT, she is paying a financial penalty relative to those who have NMF status at OU. <<

[/QUOTE]

No she isn’t. OU is not penalizing her in any way, shape or form. Rather, OU is rewarding the students who DID prepare for the exam and therefore DID score to their potential.

I think it’s silly for a school to over-value the PSAT to the degree that OU does. But the fact is that they do, and they don’t keep it a secret. so if anyone wants to attend OU with the significant perks conferred by NMF status, then you better prep for the PSAT and knock it out of the park.


[QUOTE=""]
the fact that such a premium is placed on NMF status seems like they value the results of a single test given on one Saturday morning more than they do the entirety of a students accomplishments <<

[/QUOTE]

NMF is a competition. if you put in the effort, show up on that Saturday morning with your A game, and outperform others who are taking the test, you reap the rewards. hey, the Patriots went 16-0 that season and were the league’s best team by most metrics, but on that one Sunday the Giants came to play and as a result the Lombardi Trophy went with them to NY and not to New England.

my nephew fought his mom tooth and nail about prepping for the PSAT but she won and he got the NMF, which he parlayed into a full ride + $17K stipend at their state flagship. my son pretty much blew off test prep and now is kicking himself for falling a couple points short of NMF. it is hardly a secret to anyone that winning the NMF can really open up a lot of great options for college. but like any competition, you have to put in the time and effort to compete and fight for it.

if OU wants to significantly sweeten the pot for NMF students, that is their prerogative. and if Alabama makes more sense financially, she should go there, as it sounds like they are more willing to reward what she brings to the table to a greater extent than OU.

15

OK, I think I’m going to just leave this thread as is, as I’m completely unable to explain what I see as something that will make us not select OU. I think 3scoutsmom nailed it when she said this:

“OU gets enough NM kids to meet it’s needs so no need to seek out more high stats kids at their taxpayers’ expense.”

That tells me exactly what I felt all along. OU isn’t interested in high stats kids, it wants NM kids. With this policy in place, I think that is what they will get. I suspect they have a larger stats gap than is typical between their NM pool and the rest of their student population as a result of this policy.

One more thing that seems to get completely ignored by those who respond: I’m not complaining (sorry if it comes off that way) about my daughter not being NMF. I’m astounded by the difference in NMF status at OU and the resulting merit as compared with other schools. OU seems to be alone in the magnitude of this difference. It is the magnitude I’m astounded by, not the fact that there is a difference.

Another point that I was subtlety trying to make is that being a NMF does not necessarily indicate strength of the student as compared with others. Our HS had 3 NMFs this year and they all have a lower rank than my D, so I do know that NMF is not the only indicator of success. As a matter of fact, for STEM degrees, the weighting of the selection index can actually make some NMFs not compare well at all to students strong in the STEM disciplines.

16

I don’t think NMF necessarily means high stats. Just sayin’. The ‘gap’ may be no gap at all. I know this doesn’t make you feel any better. Sorry.

ETA: Sorry, I see you make this point at the end of your post. nm.

17

It IS clear to me that you’re not complaining that your D is not NMF. You’re very obviously complaining that OU is not giving her as much merit money as it gives NMFs. You already implied that your D is as good as or better than NMF, and now you’re just coming right out and saying that your D is a better student than the NMFs in her school because she’s ranked higher. Nobody here has tried to argue that your D is not a deserving student. But now you’re trying to elevate her above others and still hoping to get sympathy because she isn’t getting a scholarship based on an exam she didn’t prepare for.

18

@ColoFatherOf3


[QUOTE=""]
OU isn't interested in high stats kids, it wants NM kids ... I'm astounded by the difference in NMF status at OU and the resulting merit as compared with other schools. OU seems to be alone in the magnitude of this difference. It is the magnitude I'm astounded by, not the fact that there is a difference. <<

[/QUOTE]

yes. i agree with you that it sure seems that way. i do recognize that your real complaint is that they should not overvalue the NMF over high stats non-NMF to the degree that they do. i agree with you about this too.

i guess my issue is that i don’t see what complaining about it will accomplish. some time ago i went to OU’s website and recognized this exact scholarship discrepancy that you pointed out. that’s why we did not apply there. apparently they have decided to disproportionately reward NMF over “only” high stats. you and i might think that’s not a very good policy but we are not calling the shots at OU.

if someone wants to take fullest advantage of NMF then OU is a good choice. if your D / my S have high stats but no NMF, then Alabama is probably the better choice, because such students seem to be valued more at UA than OU. frankly i would think a non-NMF high-stats kids would feel weird at OU because the NMF kids are so much more highly prized. your D is probably better off where she is more highly valued for what she has accomplished.

19

I see the OP’s point. OU was the only school that fell off my D’s list when she missed the TX NMF cut-off by 1 point, because it was the only school that didn’t offer comparable merit for high stats students. Her stats are well above many NMF that will enroll at OU. So what? Their loss, imo. D has already been offered much better merit packages at better schools than OU (imo). Just move along.

20

@traveler98: I’m glad you understand I’m not complaining about lack of NMF title. However, do you really think this post is about “hoping to get sympathy”? If so, I suggest you go back and re-read this thread. I’m continually amazed by the way some folks feel they need to put down others in order to make them selves feel better. You would think CC posters would be better than that, but I guess I’m expecting too much, at least from you.

We will vote with our pocket book. OU will not get our tuition dollars due to this over emphasis on the NMF title. My advice to her will be: “attending OU as a non NMF will put you at a disadvantage, both financially and in other perks offered by the University. There are other schools out there who do not over emphasize this test and will value your contributions more than OU will”.

DD made a conscious decision not to prep for this test as at the time, she did not have any schools on her radar that gave out any extra merit for the title. Now that she is farther along in her selection process, OU was a consideration, but likely no longer. DD has two cousins that were NMF and their advice to her was not to prep for it. They got absolutely zero value from the title and didn’t prep for it themselves. We took that advice and in hind sight, should have prepped. However, even with prepping, you never know how it will go on one test on one particular day.

Again, OU is the sole school we’ve encountered that does this. None of the other schools we’ve looked at have such a huge disparity in the treatment of merit for NMFs vs non NMFs. It is indeed their prerogative to do this, as it is our prerogative to vote with our pocket book.

She still has highly selective schools that do not offer non need based merit on her list, so we’ll be making ROI decisions on those schools if she gets admitted as well. The school selection process involves many aspects, but how students are valued is a major attribute. The message we get from OU’s pricing is that they do not value non NMFs. Message received. If that comes across as ungrateful, I’m sorry. When deciding how to spend $100k or more of my money, this is a business decision with high stakes.