<p>May have already been mentioned, but maybe it is not the school but the major. </p>
<p>As someone with an undergrad in chemistry and a grad degree in eng I can tell I put in many, many hours studying for sometimes mediocre grades. I also found the first couple of years I was taking the classes the school used to weed out those who could not hack it. it absolutely got easier jr and sr year. The best thing I ever did was to form study groups with other kids in my major. We would meet every afternoon in the library for an hour or two and be available to help each other. </p>
<p>You mention that this ivy was a big reach for him. That suggests that his stats were lowish for the school. Since heās a CS major, I would bet that his classmates were mostly high stats kids so he may be the ālow man on the totem poleā at this school.</p>
<p>Since he doesnāt want to change majors, then the answer is probably, āyes,ā this school is too hard for him because of who his classmates are. Heād probably be pulling all As and Bs at his state flagship or similar. </p>
<p>This reminds me of the criticisms of accepting lower stats students into elitesā¦these same kids would be standouts at lower ranked schools, but struggle (and get demoralized) when theyāre having to compete with kids with super stats.</p>
<p>I might get flamed for this but here goes. I have two kids in engineering, one at a techy school and one at a competitive university. I also have a nephew at a directional local university also majoring in engineering. All were smart kids in HS. All did about the same on their ACTās. The one who has it the hardest in college? Hands down the one at the competitive university.</p>
<p>As anyone in engineering can tell you the content at each school is pretty comparable. The students are not. At my Dās school, the competitive university, there are no curves, no extra credit. Everyone is very smart and very capable. No calculators on exams, no open book exams, no cheat sheets. All things the other two engineers talk about having. She works all the time with not much of a social life for very mediocre grades. She begged me to let her transfer after her first semester soph year and we didnāt want her to. I think it was a big mistake. She didnāt get an internship last year and now junior year she is having an equally hard time. At her brotherās school, most of the internships list a min GPA of 3.0 but at her school most of the internship list min GPA of 3.25 or 3.5. She has a 2.9 and just is not competitive with most of her peers. </p>
<p>Now itās too late. Another semester over and another semester where sheās probably going to be around a 3.0 not enough to bring up her GPA and it will still hover under 3.0. IDK itās hard not to be discouraged as sheās working all the time and not partying, not even going out and still she canāt get over the hump. Hopefully she will have luck getting an internship this summer. </p>
<p>She only had one bad semester, she passed all her classes but with Cās and now sheās working really hard and just canāt get her GPA up. In engineering there are not opportunities to take classes other than your core classes and tons of hours, so not much chance to take easy classes to raise her GPA. Also retaking classes in not an option, at a very expensive school and on a lot of FA, we just canāt afford to retake a class just because she got a C. </p>
<p>Do I think she is a good student, yes? Can she do the work, absolutely! Does she still want to be an engineer? Yes! Should we have let her transfer? Sadly I think the answer is yes.</p>
Sorry, donāt mean to start a tanget here. And I honestly am just asking. It doesnāt comport with my recollection, but I went to UCs so maybe itās different elsewhere.</p>
<p>Which school is this where engineering students donāt use calculators on exams?</p>
<p>Iām assuming they are not expected to get numerical answers for things, or the computations are very obvious. I can more understand limiting the type of calculator they can use (more basic, like for the Professional Engineering exam).</p>
<p>Yes, I know weāve all been through the debate on other threads about calculators in math class, and in general I agree thatās not the place for them.</p>
<p>But there are universities where students take chemistry, physics and engineering and do not use calculators for exams? Are they expected to come up with numerical answers? Their professors feel it is better to have them waste time doing multiplication in longhand?</p>
<p>Seriously, Iāve never heard of this. I just did a very quick Google and these imply calculators are used at Cornell and Caltech. The second one says they can be used on the class final exam, which in this case looks like a take-home. </p>
<p>I imagine the policy on cheatsheets varies from course to course and school to school. My experience is that on really tough exams, a cheatsheet doesnāt help much. The problem is not memorizing formulas, itās applying them correctly.</p>
<p>Since I may have derailed the thread a bit with my post above, let me state that I agree with the poster who stated that the problem may not so much be the material as the fellow students. When I took my upper division courses for my physics and EE degrees, I swear there were courses where I was completely confused about everything but still managed to pull a B. Primarily because everybody else in the class was similarly bewildered. This is probably not as likely to happen at MIT.</p>
<p>As far as employment, itās tough for everyone right now. I stipulate that the more things going for you the better, so a good GPA will help get your foot in the door. But I suspect the UE rate for engineers is still fairly low, although it may take time to get a job. We had an unpaid intern working for us with a BSME. It took him almost a year but he finally got a job. </p>
<p>You will find hiring practices vary, so you just have to find the right place to apply. If you already have internships and work experience under your belt youāre lucky, Iām sure there are many places that value that as much or more than GPA. </p>
<p>Where I work we give all applicants an actual written technical test. Fairly simple, along the lines of the FE exam for engineers. We rank people according to their score. Itās surprising how many kids with near perfect GPAs bomb this test for some reason, although in general Iād say the kids with better gades do better on the test. But not always.</p>
<p>It gets worseā¦ another D - that makes 3 with one class still not posting. I feel like my hair is going to spontaneously combust. If this were my HS student I would know what to do - call the school, arrange a meeting with his teachers to see if we could identify any common themes but with a 20 year old what can/should you do? Realistically, I guess it doesnāt change our plans but I am VERY worried for his ability and/or chance for future success in college. Deb922 - that was my original question, so no flames here. Really though, who would take him with a 2.04 gpa even if he is coming from an Ivy? I know absolutely nothing about the transfer process (never thought I would need to either). Is it completely inappropriate for me to speak with someone at his school about this? (I know, I know - it probably is) I just feel so helpless as I watch his dream go down the drain. You think that once they get in, they will be reasonably successful as long as they donāt actively sabotage themselves (not hand in assignments, go to class) I just never imagined that he would find himself in this situation. I have to say, I am also feeling quite sad and guilty because in large part, it was our dream to have him go there too. Did we inadvertently set him up for failure? I really feel awful.</p>
<p>Youāre original question was whether the school is too hard for him. You mentioned the school was not only a reach for him, but, since you mentioned a SAT tutor, he needed some help with his already ālow for the university he is attendingā scores. Since he is struggling along with low admission stats compared to his peers, it seems the school is too hard for him. I suspect many schools would be happy to have your son transfer. Heāll get a CS degree and his dreams and yours need no āgo down the drain.ā You just need another dream of success that doesnāt depend on an Ivy degree. I would talk to the dean of the department to get some direction as to where to go or how to proceed.</p>
<p>I donāt think itās completely inappropriate for you to speak with someone at the school about this, but you should probably let your child speak with someone first. They should get in touch with their advisor or their Dean and try to see what they suggest in terms of proceeding. Also, you may consider putting in transfer applications. Donāt worry too much about who would take him, if he doesnāt get in he can stay in the school where he is, but there are probably plenty of schools that would like a transfer student like him. Maybe start with your list of colleges from when he was applying and look at some of the more match or safety schools he was considering. Then visit their websites and read about their transfer admissions so you can get a handle on the process.</p>
<p>Nobody is combusting and no dreams are going down the drain.</p>
<p>The world is filled with happy and successful (fill in the blanks) who at one point thought they were going to be a (fill in a different blank). Your son is experiencing what is known as a reality check; if you act as though the world is coming to an end because he has to switch gears, reach out to his professors and deans for help, and keep his mind open to some other career objectives. You need to be the voice of reason here and his own professors are going to be the best judge of what needs to happen next. If you act as though his only choices now are to find an institution which will take him and allow him to continue in CS it seems to me you are just perpetuating the thinking which got him where he is.</p>
<p>Take a deep breathe. His college will know how to handle this.</p>
<p>Your S may not want to hear what his professors are telling him, i.e. you will make a fantastic civil engineer or statistician or urban planner or economist or oncologist or any number of other fields which will take advantage of his strengths. Or maybe they will tell him that he needs one more semester to get back on track but he should stick with his plan. Or that they knew he was floundering since day 3 and didnāt understand why he didnāt show up at office hours with all the other flounderers. Or that his weak math prep can be fixed over the summer. Or some combination thereof.</p>
<p>But this isnāt as dire as you think as long as your S is prepared to elicit help from the people who get paid to help (the faculty, the tutoring center, the deans, the TAās) and will keep an open mind when they try to direct him towards resources (all of the above) plus perhaps an academic course correction.</p>
<p>I had a professor who took me aside sophomore year and told me that I could be a mediocre X (and I was acing his course, so it wasnāt my academic performance per se) but that he felt I owed it to myself to go and find something where I could be an outstanding Y, and not a mediocre X. I cried for two days but he was right. Why push a rock up a hill?</p>
<p>Thank you Blossom for the reality check - but I am really venting my disappointment on CC and saving my solid, concrete, mother-skills for him. He has no idea how freaked out I am (he just had his wisdom teeth out this morning so he doesnāt even know about the most recent D!)</p>
<p>As another poster pointed out, a complexity course is probably the most theoretical required course in a CS program. But CS programs vary greatly in the emphasis put on theory. In some, the theory is treated as something students should be exposed to, so they see it in one course, while the rest of the curriculum is very pragmatically oriented. In other programs, it is assumed that students will mastered the theoretical concepts and they will show up again and again in later courses. Top grad schools and hot employers (e.g. Google) will generally prefer students from the more theoretically-oriented programs, but students from the more pragmatic ones can do well, too. </p>
<p>I suggest that when your son talks to a CS prof, he also ask about the philosophy of his program re theory. If his current program emphasizes it but it is an aspect of CS that he doesnāt enjoy and finds difficult, then he might want to consider transferring to a program with a better fit. </p>
<p>(I wrote the above and then my internet connection went down. In the meantime, I saw the post about the additional D. This is a little more serious than just not doing well in math/CS-theory. But I disagree with the posters who believe that the only solution is to give up on CS.) </p>
<p>Hope your son has a quick and pain-free recovery from the wisdom teeth removal!</p>
Similar story for me ā¦ I was an undergrad at Cornellās Engineering school ā¦ I never got an āFā but my first two years I did get at leat one D-, D, D+, C-, C, and C+ ā¦ and my GPAs were something like 2.7, 2.9, 2.5, and 2.1 ā¦ and yes my grades were worse my second year (I was more social as a soph). However after I got into my major my grades took off and I graduated with a 3.0 and got into top 5 graduate schools for engineering and b-school. I can relate to having trouble adjusting to getting thrown into the deep end at Cornell but once I figured out how to study and found courses I found compelling I was fine.</p>
<p>Theory is the area where a lot of otherwise great CS folks get tripped up. It pulls from math and a lot of abstract thinking, and is unlike most other courses a CS major will take in college. In contrast, my kids eats the theory for breakfast, lunch and dinner, but quakes in his boots over graphics, AI, etc. </p>
<p>With three Ds, Iād be pretty concerned, and I guess the topic of transferring would come up at my house, though I would not force the issue.</p>
<p>Motherbear, I never said the only solution was to give up on CS. But lots of kids in HS donāt really know what CS entails when they decide thatās what they want to studyā¦ and if they do know, they may come from HSās where the math prep puts them a half step behind their classmates and it may take them a while to really figure out how to catch up or to compensate. This isnāt giving up- this is reality. Not every kid can work hard and master the material in every single discipline. And the harder the kid works, sometimes the more frustrating and demoralizing the situation becomes. Do I think transferring to a U with lower standards solves this kids problem? No, unlike some of the other posters, I think going somewhere else compounds the problem.</p>
<p>If this were my kid, Iād need to hear three good reasons why itās CS or bust. There are so many ways that a kid like this could be excelling and loving his classes and really feeling stretched by his college experience, that sticking with the original plan now that thereās actual data on the table strikes me as stubborn to the point of tone-deaf. Especially since Iām willing to bet that this kid is good at so many things, why stick with the one thing that doesnāt seem to be working out?</p>
<p>*I have to say, I am also feeling quite sad and guilty because in large part, it was our dream to have him go there too. Did we inadvertently set him up for failure? I really feel awful. *</p>
<p>Donāt beat yourself up. You wanted your son to go to the best school that he could get into. Thatās normal. </p>
<p>Butā¦yesā¦he should transfer to a school where his high school stats are a better match. Heāll go from being a C/D student to an A/B student.</p>
<p>However, whatās the situation? Are you a full pay at his school or does he get fantastic aid. If he needs fantastic aid to go to college, then transferring is going to be an issue because transfer students donāt often get very good aid.</p>
<p>What state are you in? Does your state school have a good CS program?</p>
<p>Quick answer for the poster(s) regarding use of calculators. Son just graduated from an ivy (might be the one OP is speaking of) and son was also not allowed to use his calculator for his math classes through Def EQ, nor was he allowed to use it for his calc based econ classes. His school does have different level of calc courses and chem and econ courses. The harder ones are referred to as āturbo chemā etc. He has stated there are similar tracks at Harvard for math as well, so his is not the only ivy (pton) with different levels of math and sciences. And yes he did have ātake homeā exams and they are on their honor for no cheat sheets, no calcsā¦</p>
<p>So his fancy calculator he used for AP Calc BC was of no use to him in his math, chem, bio, physics and econ courses. Contrast this with his brother who uses his engineering calculator everyday at a tech school for a mech e major, son at the ivy was an econ major-calc based (also pre-med hence the OChem, physics and bio). Same son is getting a second BS in biochemistry and microbiology/genetics from a different school before starting med school in August can use a calculator at the second school.</p>
<p>As far as the original post regarding sonās difficulties I send hugs and good thoughts. If it is the same school as my sonās they do have very punishing grade deflation (policy) especially in engineering, math and cs.</p>
<p>Make sure that you show him a lot of love and support as he figures out what to do next. He has a big decision to make, and will be stressed enough already, so if he can look to you as a calm, rational Mother, it will help him a lot. He sounds like a great kid to me, hard working and not afraid to tackle difficult subject matter. He deserves a lot of credit for sticking it out for so long. </p>
<p>As a science major in college, I found Freshman and Soph years more difficult than Jr and Sr years. Likewise, my son (Engr Major) found the same thing to be true. So it could be that the worst is aleady over for your son. He should talk to other students in the major, and get their take on how the upper division classes are compared to what they took for prerequisites and lower division.</p>
<p>Re: calculatorsā¦are we talking graphing calcs? I know that some of my sonās math classes (heās a math major) didnāt allow graphing calcs for testsā¦just the simple calcs. DifEq was one such class and there were some others. </p>
<p>I donāt see the harm in allowing regular calcsā¦no need to waste time doing simple math. But, I totally understand why some classes wonāt let you use your graphing calc that you used in AP Cal.</p>
<p>"- but I am really venting my disappointment on CC and saving my solid, concrete, mother-skills for him. " - Good plan. Good luck! </p>
<p>My beef - For college advice, HS students can consult guidance counselors. And CC. And even college coaches for hire. But Iāve never found a good resource where they can connect to explore choice of major (beyond the trite - āengineering works if you like math/scienceā). Yes, sometimes you can change a major at a collegeā¦ but at smaller schools there might not be many choices. I have my college re-entry kid doing a career interest survey via the counseling dept, but still donāt think that will yield the kind of guidance that would be helpful pre-college.</p>