<p>I’m the one who commented on St Joe’s, not OP (note I said the opposite about CUA). St Joe’s HONORS program is for kids with a very different level than OP’s daughter and since she’s been driven (top 10% at a very good high school) she’d be bored and probably unhappy with the regular level classes. Yes, there’s such a thing as being “too good” academically for a college, which is VERY different from saying “too good” in a moral sense. OP’s daughter got a 2200 on her SAT and has a high GPA in a challenging high school program, she won’t feel in the right place at a school where the average score is 1650 and the average GPA 3.4 in a regular college prep curriculum.
It’s got a similar “feel” from the outside but it’s really not the same as Nova; it’s kind of like thinking Penn State UP and Penn State Abington are the same. It may work for OP’s daughter but for secondary education West Chester has a similar level as St Joe’s and would be less costly. I do think OP’s daughter can get into better colleges.
I second Dayton and Scranton but don’t overlook Muhlenberg and a few other top schools that still accept applications. (I am not affiliated in any way with Muhlenberg but it’s nationally recognized and sought after on the East coast, especially among prep school kids who aren’t competitive for Ivies/NESCAC).
@Archiemom: that’s bad but for OP’s daughter, it’ll help, I’m sure, since it’ll give her time to lick her wounds. I do think that admitting her without aid is cruel but Villanova is known for bad financial aid. (Only 15% kids get full need met…)</p>
<p>I agree with MYO. Unfortunately, if part of the appeal of Villanova is the sports culture (basketball and track in particular there) the other schools named aren’t going to provide that. This student has really good stats and I hope there is a good fit still available.</p>
<p>The St. Joe’s Honors College is full of very bright, very accomplished students. Kids whose first choices of Georgetown, Boston College, and yes, Villanova were just unaffordable. 1300 may be the minimum SAT score for the SJU honors college, but I personally know many excellent students with much higher stats who are currently attending or who have graduated. </p>
<p>My daughter, whose stats are (slightly) higher than the OP’s daughter’s, plans on applying to both Catholic U and St. Joe’s. </p>
<p>I would say the vibes at VU and SJU are different. VU feels like it has a wealthier student body. Also, SJU has a much more Philadelphia feel. VU kids are geographically more diverse and the campus feels more isolated than SJU although VU is an easier commute into Center City. </p>
<p>While VU certainly has a better reputation nationally, St. Joe’s Business school is very well regarded in the Philadelphia business community.</p>
<p>“Full-price, private university tuition would really only be worth it if your daughter would be attending the nursing or business or engineering schools.”</p>
<p>??</p>
<p>It is often not worth it to attend a full-price school for engineering or nursing. Why do you think that? And many times it wouldn’t be worth it for business, either.</p>
<p>“U Dayton (regionally well-known Catholic college)”</p>
<p>If U Dayton’s merit scholarships are still available, this would be a great option! She’d get the top merit, I think.</p>
<p>“I agree with MYO. Unfortunately, if part of the appeal of Villanova is the sports culture (basketball and track in particular there) the other schools named aren’t going to provide that. This student has really good stats and I hope there is a good fit still available.”</p>
<p>Did the OP mention that her D wants a basketball school? I may have missed that. If that’s true, aren’t there other Catholic B-Ball schools that may still give merit. I don’t follow B-Ball…does UDayton have a team that students go to watch?</p>
<p>This is one of those times when an old-timer like myself wishes the OP had come onboard last fall. People would have told the OP to expect little $ from VU, same as NYU. People would have offered other suggestions, such as Muhlenberg. If she wanted S FL, I’D HAVE ADDED U MIAMI, WHICH DOES GIVE MERIT $. sorry for caps. If one wants to be a teacher, it is usually easier to go to a college in-state. Anyway, I hope the OP and his DD get at least 1 or 2 more applications in.</p>
<p>If that’s relevant: A Catholic school with GREAT basketball is Gonzaga. 
However, OP seems to have left :)</p>
<p>Not enough imaginative thinking going on here. Way too many upper-middle-class assumptions about what’s necessary in life. Way too many people accusing the daughter of demanding a BMW when a VW will do, without asking if the parents are currently living a BMW lifestyle (and are preparing a BMW retirement), which THEY could trim a little.</p>
<p>OP, if you’re like other people I know who are in your approximate income bracket, you make enough money to send daughter to VU. You’re probably just spending it on other stuff that isn’t as important as her education and making her happy. I wouIdn’t be on her side if she was selfish or lazy, but you’ve got a one-in-a-thousand daughter, and if you’re willing to sacrifice, you can make her dream come true. I suggest you convene another meeting with the family. Here’s the agenda:</p>
<p>Daughter, you’ve been great, and if we ALL tighten our belts a bit, we can get you that Villanova degree without accumulating a lot of debt. </p>
<p>Daughter, if you can manage to go to VU just 3 years, instead of 4, 25% of your VU bill disappears. If that means summer classes at community college combined with AP credits, fine. If that means freshman year at community college, and then transfer to VU, fine. You could also go to St. Joe’s for 2 years and transfer to VU for the last two…that would help. And you can also get a job or two to help your own cause. And get your prom dress at a second-hand shop. And cancel your high school graduation party. Here’s what the rest of us are going to do to make sure you become a Wildcat:</p>
<p>All family gym memberships are cancelled. We’ll run around the block instead.</p>
<p>We’re switching from orange juice to [much cheaper] tomato juice.</p>
<p>Six frozen bagels cost less than 2 fresh ones. We’re a frozen bagel family now. Or…maybe even a TOAST family.</p>
<p>Anybody want a video game? Here’s a vacuum cleaner…go kill the dust bunnies.</p>
<p>No more lawn service. We’re cutting our own lawn, and maybe the neighbor’s too.</p>
<p>Same with shoveling our own snow. And maybe the neighbor’s.</p>
<p>No more manicures. No more tobacco products. No more maid service. Cell plans are bare-bones from now on. No more store-bought flowers. You want flowers? Plant a flower garden.</p>
<p>We have a new family hobby. It’s called extreme couponing.</p>
<p>Cable TV subscription is minimized or cancelled, you pick which. Magazine and newspaper subscriptions are cancelled. </p>
<p>Everybody in this family has a closet full of clothes. No clothing purchases for a year, except the prom dress.</p>
<p>We’re keeping our cars twice as long as we thought we were going to.</p>
<p>Henceforth, the men of the house will get their hair cut by the women of the house. The women of the house will get theirs cut by a fellow named Fantastic Sam.</p>
<p>See those squirrels and chipmunks in the back yard? When Fluffy the cat dies, those will be the family pets.</p>
<p>Mom and I are switching to really inexpensive coffee.</p>
<p>Mom and I are switching to really cheap alcohol…the hangovers from the inexpensive products will make us drink less and live longer.</p>
<p>Those who don’t like extreme couponing have the option to start another hobby: vegetable gardening.</p>
<p>Drive slower, I just saved $200 by raising our auto insurance deductibles.</p>
<p>No vacation trips for a while. We always came back more tired than when we left anyway. Villanova tailgating will be our vacations for the next few years.</p>
<p>We have plenty of tap water. No more bottled water. </p>
<p>Wife and Daughter, these may sound like draconian measures, but believe it or not a LOT of people DON’T have maid service, lawn service, etc. We will survive. Go Wildcats!</p>
<p>Wow, the last post got my attention… Let me bring the group up to speed and fill in some blanks and correct some assumptions. My D is 18, and like most 18 year old kids, they are not sure what they want to do in life. She thinks it’s education, but not 100% sure and needs the college experience to see if that changes, so switching her major is a possibility, but to what is the question? A few days have passed and my D has began to talk about the situation at hand, she is not crying anymore, her smile has returned and she realizes that the V cost is not worth the price for the degree she had intend to pursue. For the record, the other schools are still fine with her, they never were NOT good enough as one parent suggested, she is not like that. For my D, it was and never will be about the prestige or the name of the school, it was about the feeling she got when she visited three times. The “I can’t explain it Daddy, I just know it in my heart” feeling… The other schools we visited were all great, but V was the one that put the smile on her face ear to ear for the entire weekend. And even today if you mention it, …the smile appears, but is now followed by a tear or two. D has been accepted in all honors programs available. She has always wanted to attend a catholic university as her faith is important to her and she is half Italian so being close to home is a must. LOL. As of today, she has made arrangement with a close teacher and alum to visit St. Joe’s again. She is doing what she can to make things work, all the more reason I want to make her drams come true. I know tapping the 401K is a mistake financially, but to make her dream come true, and to get her into the school that truly fits without a shadow of a doubt, might be money well spent. To be continued…</p>
<p>Let’s not be to quick to judge without all of the facts. Also, when I looked 2 years ago, if my memory is correct, Villanova made it very hard to take cheaper classes during the summer. I believe their rule was you cannot take courses somewhere else if Villanova offered an online course. </p>
<p>When my son was considering Villanova, we assumed 3.5 years to graduate because of AP credit, and it still was much more expensive than all of his other options. Also, many students find it difficult to graduate in 3.5 years because of the required succession of courses in their major - not every course is offered every semester. </p>
<p>The ease of gaining AP credit varies greatly from college to college. The less selective colleges generally grant credit for a 3, while the more selective ones require a 4 or a 5. Some also limit the amount of AP credit than can be used.</p>
<p>At my son’s university, like many fellow students, he could have graduated in 3.5 years, but chose not to - because it is affordable and because he is enjoying it too much. </p>
<p>Because master’s degrees have become more important, and because there are no subsidized federal loans for grad school, there is great value in avoiding excessive undergrad debt. This debt avoidance is critical to make grad school affordable. The amount of college aid available for grad school varies greatly from program to program, and from employer to employer. Many people are entering joint bachelors/masters programs to shave a year off of the expenses and time commitment. </p>
<p>@yensidtlaw: look into UScranton and UDayton, at least. If she finds another school that “fits” her, it may ease the disappointment.
To give you another perspective, the Honors students at St Joe’s have the results that the bottom 25% at Villanova have. It’s a big gap since your daughter would have been a top student at Villanova.
I can’t help but think the sting is also linked to the fact the other schools just don’t match her ability and drive, so it was “all that work for that result”, which is very very painful.
Is being close to home a necessity or can you encourage her to attend a school a little farther away (if only in the State or within a 6 hour drive)? After all, she’s soon to be an adult, it may be good for her to spread her wings a little and not stay so close, even if, being within a half day’s drive, she would still be close enough to visit every weekend if she wanted to.</p>
<p>When you talk about drive, both my kids have it. I remember when D was 7 yrs old, she brought home a flyer from school, Karate classes… well, I knew I was eventually going to enroll them both in martial arts classes, see , I was a instructor back in the day… I remember they were going over the different levels of membership, 3 mth, 6 mth, 1, 2,3 year… the Black Belt membership etc… We will take the 3 mth I said, D looked up at me with those big blue eyes and said “Daddy, I’m going to go all the way” see she was 7 and I was not going to spend $4000 on a seven year old…nt knowing if she would even like karate, Right, well, D did go all the way, she earned her Black Belt at age 13 and her second degree a few years later. She has always had drive and determination. I know she will be a success, I know she will adapt to any University, What I don’t know is why is it all about the money, why is it about the affordability… can it be about its the right thing to do, its the right fit, its the right thing down deep. As you can see, I am conflicted, my head says be smart, my heart says Go for it! We have time, accepted students day is in a few weeks now because of the weather we have had.</p>
<p>So you don’t want her to look at schools in-between Villanova and the others in terms of academic strength?
Or are you in denial that you won’t be able to spend that much money and “hope” it’ll work out, so that you won’t bring that idea up with her?
That would seem like a solution so that you neither have to go into such debilitating debt and make her attend colleges that are so far below her level. It would get you out of that either/or situation.
There’s no “right thing to do” here. It’s not a moral matter. As of now, there’s no “right” solution. That’s why I really think you need to create alternatives.</p>
<p>I wish it were so easy as getting rid of cable, smart phone, bottled water, Starbucks, new cars to afford a $60K+ a year college. We are talking about coming up with after tax amounts, for us of about $30-35K and those things just aren’t going ot happen even with draconian cuts in consumption. The fact of the matter is that many of us, myself, included were on strict budgets already to afford things like our house, the taxes on it, the minimum utilitiy cost on it, necessary repairs and upkeep on it, medical, dental other health expenses. Lawn care, maid service, new cars, clothing, discretionary shopping for us weren’t even in the picture. We’d have to sell our house, which was the single biggest nut, and in the housing market as it was, it wasn’t a good option. Also considering other issues happening made it a choice that would be very much made with blinders disregarding quality of life for other members’ in the family. Unless this is a high discretionary spending family, coming up with that much extra isn’t going to happen. I can tell you here, that though I’ve loosened up a lot now, 10 years ago, I was shopping groceries on a strict budget. Very little in discretionary expenses went out of our house. No vacations, zero. No eating out or Starbucks, unless it was on someone else. I laughed at the advice in the Latte budget. There were no lattes here to cut. What had to be cut were my younger kid’s school ECs, private school which the older sibling enjoyed and had, the house itself and other things I’ve listed. Even now we just have one car between DH and me and it’s a ten year old clunker with a quarter million miles on it, that we are watching to see when it starts costing more than it’s worth or get unreliable at which point in time we’ll get another used car. Our insurance was at the minimum we could get, and we took what could have been a foolish risk doing that. Anyone looking at our budget found no fat to cut. We had locked ourselves into commitments that cost that much.</p>
<p>Also Villanova is not doing an admit/deny. They tend to meet full need. The OP states that the other schools are offering scholarships, merit money, and at a school of V’s calibre, it’s much more difficult to get that kind of award. They get enough kids at the OP’s students stats that they don’t have to pay for them. And the OP does not qualify for financial aid. I’m in the same situation with my kids. That we live in the area we do, want the insurance and health services we get, have the house we do, send our kids to private K-12 schools and don’t want to yank the younger ones. Support their high school ECs, means that the jump to college is simply not doable. We made our commitments up to what our wages would support right up through high school and private sleep away colleges were not in our financial planning. We failed to save for it. </p>
<p>In all fairness to DH and me, we did save some for college. Just not enough and some issues arose that took a lot of our flexibility away and cost us money. We also want to have a certain level of comfort in our old age and a buffer that way—like OP we could take money out of 401Ks and pensions. We did borrow against 401 Ks a few times for short term cash crunches and repaid it. But when you are talking about a 6 figure loan needed to make this work, with the full awareness that things in life can go wrong, it isnt a risk that is worth taking.</p>
<p>It hurts for me to write this. Villanova was my personal favorite choice for my last kid picking colleges, so this one hits me in the gut. And for all I known, had my son gotten in and really wanted to go, maybe we would have taken the financial leap to make it happen. But we did not, and the $30K differential in cost each year is not flowing in here either. We got caught short a couple of years ago even without taking out that extra, and it hurt. </p>
<p>
Lol even the Catholic University of America claims to meet a higher percentage of need than Villanova (42% and 15% respectively). Villanova just doesn’t give out money period. </p>
<p>The parents of a kid with 2200 SATs, in the top 10% of her class, should not have to dig into retirement to send her to a good college. If your income is low enough to qualify for need-based aid, your D would have had a much better shot at a generous package from more selective schools like Holy Cross or Georgetown. If your income is too high for n-b aid, she should have had a good shot at decent merit aid from schools at least as strong as Villanova (including a few state universities and many good LACs.)</p>
<p>Consider a gap year. Broaden your perspective beyond Philadelphia-area Catholic schools. If you cannot do that, go with one of the less expensive options already on the table. You won’t be doing your kids any favors if they wind up shouldering family retirement expenses as well as piles of college debt. </p>
<p>Mooop, the one person in your story who doesn’t have to sacrifice is the daughter who still gets to keep her prom dress and go to Villanova. Is it really fair for one person in the family to take half of the family income and get a new prom dress?</p>
<p>I really don’t know many families who make so much money that giving up the $3 case of water is going to make $60k appear. In my case, I’d need $120k because I have 2 entering college. There aren’t enough coupons in the world to save that because it is more than I make.</p>
<p>But that really isn’t the point. For me, $60k is too much to pay for a year of college, even if I have saved it. I don’t care if it is at Harvard or Oxford or my personal dream school of UVA, it’s too much. I make decisions all the time that something is just too much, even if I have the money and even if my kids really want it. A restaurant meal, a vacation, a car. Some things are just beyond our lifestyle, and some places don’t take coupons! </p>
<p>I care if it’s Harvard (as long as we’re talking about spending, not borrowing), but we’re not talking about Harvard. We’re also not talking about a kid whose dream is to become a Rhodes Scholar or a chemistry professor. Villanova is overpriced. I thought it was overpriced when it was, in constant dollars, 40% cheaper than it is now. Unless you are so rich that the money is inconsequential, I think it’s a bad deal. And while I am all for prioritizing education over other luxury spending, there are plenty of fancy vacations and second homes that I think are a better deal than Villanova. </p>
<p>The smell of red herring in here is overwhelming.</p>
<p>Charlie is worried that they won’t take AP scores of 3…if she has a 2200 SAT, chances are she’s got a few 4’s and 5’s.</p>
<p>Charlie’s also worried that they won’t let her take a summer class if VU offers an online course on the same topic. Boy, that’s a tough one…how’s about she takes classes they DON’T offer online?</p>
<p>Nobody’s saying they wipe out the retirement accounts…but every little bit helps, a concept which seems to escape twoinanddone, who apparently thought I was saying saving on bottled water alone was supposed to cover the whole year’s costs. </p>
<p>Remember, the OP isn’t going into debt for the whole 4-year COA…he’s got a lot saved up…it sounds like he’s lacking about 25k per year.</p>
<p>My recommendation that she try to do it in 3 years actually cuts the possible debt MORE than 25%. They will save the entire amount they would have had to borrow for that 4th year, PLUS they can use the amount they had already allocated for year 4 towards the other years. Suppose the cost was 60k per year (total of 240k), and the OP has half of that saved ( 120k). If they cut it back to 3 years, they save the 30k they didn’t have for year 4, and the 30k they DO have for year 4 can be used to completely eliminate the 30k debt for year 3. So if the portions are right, cutting back ONE year, might reduce 50% of the debt they would have if she went 4 years.</p>
<p>Another thing to think about is minimizing your weekly donations to your local parish, and putting that in the college fund…it’s going to end up in the Catholic Church’s coffers either way, so what’s the diff if you give it to your parish in weekly offerings, or give it to Villanova U. in the form of tuition? (I’m Catholic, by the way)</p>
<p>If she’s warming up to St. Joe’s, how about saying try it for a year or 2, and if you don’t warm up to it, we’ll help you pay for Villanova?</p>
<p>Another thing…VU probably isn’t used to being the top choice of folks with 2200 SATs …their lack of financial aid could be a result of them thinking the OPs daughter won’t really go there, so why even bother offering her anything. The OP might want to arrange a sit-down with the financial aid folks, and tell them DD really really wants to go, and could they cut a financial corner here or there for her. Remember, you’re not trying to get a full ride; you’re just trying to whittle away at the debt to make it manageable. It’s just a matter of priorities…you KNOW it can be done…the only question is are you willing to cut your own grass, drink domestic wine, and drink coffee from McDonald’s instead of Starbucks? Well, are you?</p>
<p>moooop, you are assuming that Villanova will accept lots of random summer credits from other institutions. Colleges have very strict limits on the credits they will accept from other colleges while the student is currently matriculated. Students should not assume that their home institutions are going to have generous credit acceptance policies for courses taken at other institutions. Generally, they don’t. And why should they? They want their money and they want their degree to reflect their own experience, not the local CC’s.</p>
<p>You are also assuming that Villanova accepts AP credit for actual course credit and not just for placement purposes. Their engineering school AP credit policy suggests that they do not accept AP credits unless you are placing up into the next class. The overall credits required at the engineering school remain the same, from what I can tell. So no shorter time to degree there; you just take different (harder) classes. This creates an academic incentive not to use AP and just retake the class again at Villanova.</p>
<p>Your suggested financial and academic credit suggestions do not strike me as realistic. Firing the lawn service, staycations, and having home haircuts for the next few years is too little, too late for an expense of this magnitude.</p>
<p>I don’t know whether Villanova is worth 60K a year. To our family, it would not be, but we are paying almost that much for somewhere else, and I’m sure a lot of people think we’re crazy. And maybe we are. But I would never try to guilt other parents into paying that much to go to any school. 60K per year is a luxury and by no means is it necessary for a good education or a good experience. There is more to life than college and people need to balance their resources as they see fit.</p>