<p>There is a difference between "cheap" and "smart."</p>
<p>"So--to anyone who has a child with test scores in the 99%, class rank in the top 2%, national awards, state officer, President of Major Club, Congressional Service Medal, HOBY, lots of awards for this and that, and teachers who love her . . .. DON'T ASSUME ANYTHING."</p>
<p>Yes, this is right! Do not assume that they are guaranteed an admission to a top 25 college. Do not assume that they will automatically get excellent financial aid that will allow you to continue your current spending habits.</p>
<p>The only thing that you can assume is that if, for instance, your students' stats guarantee them scholarships or admission to certain colleges (such as the honors program plus scholarships at your in state flagship) that they will get those things -- if they apply in time! They can not wait until May and then apply and assume that there is still space and money even for outstanding candidates like themselves.</p>
<p>Certainly, never assume an admission from HPYS, and be aware that those schools do not offer merit aid. You will get documented financial need which unless your income is $40 k or less, will be far less than you'd get thorugh merit aid at your flagship public or through merit aid at some good private universities.</p>
<p>If you are fortunate enough, however, to have a student who is as exceptional as the OP's, and if you do a lot of research and your student coorperates by making very thoughtful applications, such a student can get major merit aid including benefits such as mentorships, paid summer internships abroad, etc. at some top 50 universities that will treat your student like the star they are.</p>
<p>If you consider yourself smart in your frugality, don't complain about the cost of attendance.</p>
<p>I'm amazed at the difference in what financial aid means at different schools.
For someone with about a $4500 EFC, the family could receive 2 diff type of packages. </p>
<p>Pkg 1. Lots of merit $ and grant $ (to cover full tuition), a student subsidized loan (standard amt) and possibly a parent loan (for a reasonable amt to cover the remaining room/board). </p>
<p>Pkg 2. $30,000-35,000 of loans only. Then you still might have a gap amt to come up with, if the school costs $40,000 or more.</p>
<p>If it's pkg 2, the school does offer fin aid, but realistically the family is expected to pay the full amount using loans. Is that what they really mean by fin aid? All they do is help you get the loans?</p>
<p>Pkg 1 is the ideal but I have yet to see it happen to anyone I know. The EFC is very deceptive. </p>
<p>So, what I see happening is that parents are expected to pay the EFC (this makes sense) and then the loans provided by fin aid and the the gap amount. In many cases, this totals the full tab minus the student loan ($2600 or so).</p>
<p>kenj'smom, while I feel for you, Northstarmom has hit the nail on the head here. What do you mean you didn't want to believe your EFC? If you can not pay your EFC the only hope you have for merit money is in schools significantly below the calibre where a top student hopes to go.</p>
<p>The middle class, all of us, need to truly understand that colleges are businesses. Without amazing sacrifice we can no more afford dream schools than mansions and Ferraris.</p>
<p>I was surprised to find that for a given EFC, only half is expected to be from cash savings and half is expected to be taken in loans. So this is why our EFC is so high! No wonder we can't lay out that kind of money..they don't expect us to have it, they expect us to borrow it. I'm wondering if people with EFC = zero (or very low) are expected to take out loans, too, because half of zero is still zero.</p>
<p>Whoa, there, lkf725, that is not at all how financial aid works. You are supposed to lay out 5.6% of your asset outside of a basic allowance towards college and depending on the parents' ages, income level and number of dependents, about 25-40% of earnings. That % of earnings does have an implicit savings and/or loan assumption in it. The problem is that no allowance is given for cost of living or for prior earnings. A family making $100k who has had prior years of low income and problems with debt from those issues is not given a break, though you can appeal about individual situations to the colleges. FAFSA won't take it into consideration, however, and it has to something adjusted by the college. </p>
<p>The other thing is that just because you have a certain EFC does not mean a college is going to provide the rest of the money. Most colleges do not. They gap. And many gap big time. And, again, many offer large amounts of loans which may or may not have more favorable terms than loans you can get on your own. </p>
<p>If you are applying to a school with a good endowment, that guarantees 100% of need, usually the package is balanced with grants, loans and workstudy. My personal opinion is that a student should not take out more in loans than what the federal guidelines permit for federal loans. That gives a debt of around $20k for all 4 years, and for an excellent private school that a student really wants, is manageable most of the time. For the family, the loan burden is really a private situation that has to be individually determined. Because of the complexities of family finances and the philosophies involved, that is something that the family needs to discuss.</p>
<p>Quote: "Such families that want the best financial deal from the highest ranked university possible and who don't have top 30 public universities in their states should apply to private universities such as Vanderbilt, Emory, Washington U, Rice and Duke, Grinnell, Wake Forest, and Davidson, which give excellent merit scholarships to their top applicants. "</p>
<p>Most of these schools do have some merit aid, but this is also a lottery. Some of the "merit" aid is also prioritized on demographics, ethnic background and gender. At a school like Duke, there were 18,000 applicants this year. I think there are around 25 merit scholarships. (and some of these are only open to NC or SC residents and /or African Americans.) So I would have to disagree that this is always an option for even the "top" applicants.</p>
<p>Sokkermom, I can find merit scholarship for top student. Maybe not at schools on thier lists, but I guarantee you I can find them. I have two kids who are not top applicants, and by scrounging around and looking for some schools that would love to have them, I got some nice money options. And they have no real hooks at the schools. Schools like Sewanee, Goucher, SMU, Santa Fe would love to have some NE student.</p>
<p>Jami:
I was referencing a specific comment made earlier in this thread which mentioned specific colleges that provided merit aid. (See quote.)
The author of that comment was suggesting that there are specific top schools that offer merit aid to top students. That is not always true.</p>
<p>Jamimom,
I guess I am really confused. Sorry to be stupid about this, but please try to help me understand how this works. My husband attended a meeting with a financial aid officer during a college visit/audition last weekend. I did not attend. My husband asked if our EFC looked correct and if we had made some glaring mistake in filling out our FAFSA. The finaid rep said that (from what hubby understood) that our EFC looked about right and that it assumes (or maybe the college assumes?) that about 50% of EFC can come from current assets and 50% will be loans. </p>
<p>Are you saying that a family is expected to contribute the 5.6% of savings and between 25% and 40% of income (net or gross?). Where about in that percentage would we fall being age 49?</p>
<p>I do know that there is a wide variation in how schools deal with the EFC vs. tuition. I guess I just didn't understand how the EFC is calculated.</p>
<p>We also agreed that about $20K is a reasonable amount of undergrad debt. I can't imagined being saddled with much more than that, and then having to deal with grad school.</p>
<p>Thanks for your help!</p>
<p>"Most of these schools do have some merit aid, but this is also a lottery. Some of the "merit" aid is also prioritized on demographics, ethnic background and gender. At a school like Duke, there were 18,000 applicants this year. I think there are around 25 merit scholarships. (and some of these are only open to NC or SC residents and /or African Americans.) So I would have to disagree that this is always an option for even the "top" applicants."</p>
<p>I was the person whose quote you were responding to. I do not mean that a student can apply to a school like the ones I referenced and assume that s/he will get merit aid.</p>
<p>I am, though, saying that if one is truly in the top 1% of students in the country and is extremely strong in other ways (so strong that one has reasonable chances of getting a HPYSMIT admittance), there definitely are ways that one can get merit aid from an excellent college. </p>
<p>To get such aid, though, one has to apply to colleges that offer merit aid. One also has to do everything possible to stand out in the pool and to express interest. One also has to take the time and effort to research the colleges, and their top scholarship winners, to see what one can do to shine in their merit aid competitions.</p>
<p>And one can't put all of one's eggs in one basket. Just because one has stats to get into Emory and Emory gives wonderful merit aid doesn't mean that one is definitely going to get that aid! Also apply to other colleges offering good merit aid including places like Tulane, which is one of the country's most generous tier one colleges offering merit aid.</p>
<p>One increases ones chances if one also applies to merit-aid offering colleges that are in regions where few students from your own region tend to apply. Then one can get the extra tip of being able to add geographic diversity to the college.</p>
<p>I have found that CC may be the best place in the country to learn about the qualifications for top colleges' merit aid. That's because you can find out here, for instance, stats and ECs for things like Emory Scholars and Wash U's merit programs. One also can privately message people and get additional info including tips on what goes on at interviews.</p>
<p>lkf, there is an EFC estimator on this site where you can plug in numbers and fool around with it and see what makes a difference as things kick in a certain low and high income threshholds so that the numbers I am giving you are very general. But, no, colleges do not expect you to give up half your assets. The official figure is 5.6% over a certain allowance. Now the student himself is expected to fork over 35% of his money which is why kids should not accumulate the money. Not good planning. </p>
<p>There are some books out there that do a step by step of the FAFSA and you might want to invest in one or down load an actual FAFSA work it through. Without knowing particulars, it is impossible to pinpoint your situation. But they will not take half your assets. Also qualified retirement assets are exempt and FAFSA does not take into account home equity (though many colleges will ask about it on a supplemental form, and those who require Profile will want that value).</p>
<p>
[quote]
The official figure is 5.6% over a certain allowance
[/quote]
Jamimom ... isn't that 5.6% of assets each year ... so over 4 years college will drain about 20% of assets?</p>
<p>Sokkermom, it depends on what you define as top student. If you take a peek at some threads, say following Berurah's son's admissions journey, this young man has been turned down at Yale, accepted to Michigan with little aid, and now has two nice merit awards at JHU and Miami. Is he a top student with mid to high 1400 SATS, top handful in class, but no true hook? I would not have guaranteed him the award at JHU but was pretty sure Miami would come through. Another young man I know with similar stats is being offered a very nice package at Tulane. Still another a full ride at Rhodes. Don't know any Emory Scholars despite the publicity of all of those scholarships. Know several kids with merit aid to Vandy and Miami. Two kids at our school got great packages from SMU. Not top students either. One kid is getting a top award from Manhattan College. Not a top student. Ithaca gave another kid a generous merit award. Every year I know of kids getting money from Denison. These are all just off the top of my head. I know a number of kids getting money from Case over the last 10 years, and Iknow a lot of Chancellor scholars at Pitt.</p>
<p>But at the specific schools you mention, I don't know anyone getting merit money though my son was given a partial athletic scholarship for Davidson. There is money out there, but you have to be open minded as to where you want to go.</p>
<p>nsmom is right - when researching finaid for our son's 2nd choice school - he came across a full-ride award that he was more than qualified for in all areas when you read about it on their website - didn't even get invited for interview (as I recall they invited about 60 kids to interview and gave 20 awards). When we called to ask how they determined who to interview, we were told in very roundabout terms that they had certain 'criteria' to meet in terms of race, gender, income levels, state of residence, even planned major...so this award that is advertised as strictly based on academic merit, is really not that at all...and being solid middle class white male with outstanding scores didn't even put him in the ballpark. Do not assume anything is set in stone, just because it appears a certain way on the website!</p>
<p>Northstarmom and Jamimom:</p>
<p>Thank you both for your responses. You both hit on key issues.</p>
<ol>
<li> Do not assume that you will get merit aid just because you think you are a top student. Merit aid takes into account things that may not be quantifiable even if you think your stats are outstanding.</li>
</ol>
<p>and, probably more important:</p>
<ol>
<li>"There is money out there, but you have to be open minded as to where you want to go."</li>
</ol>
<p>I have to admit, that when we were looking last year, my son probably wasn't as open minded as he should have been about his choices, and that limited his merit opotions. However, he is happy and we are probably much poorer than we could be.:) That said, we may all be more open minded for little sis.</p>
<p>Sokkermom, my older son dated a top student (sal) from a rigorous private school with 1500+ SATs, lot of APs, award winning community service, great ECs. She was denied at her super reach schools and decided to go to Boston College. She had applied EA there and was therefore eligible for one of their merit awards. She did not get one. Her parents were incensed and called, demanding to know who the heck would get one if she did not. Well, she was number 42 on the list, they found out. And she was from the NYC area where they had enough Catholic school graduates applying there, that they could cull the top half and still do all right. Why would they PAY for her? A dozen more just like her clamouring to get in. On the other hand, I knew a young lady from Pittsburgh who did get one of those awards with a less impressive profile. Not many kids from Pittsburgh or from that school applying to BC. I know a similar story about a kid in Westchester who did not get a dime from Fordham despite top, top stats. Not that they did not want him--they didn't need to pay for someone like him. Too many in the applicant pool. And you know what? Both schools were right. The girl went to BC and the boy went to Fordham and the parents paid full freight. That was where they wanted to go, so the school had them. Now had she applied to Notre Dame, Santa Clara, some other Catholic college in the midwest, west or south, I 'll bet that girl would have gotten some $$$, but she was adament about staying in the NE, preferably New England. And that boy wanted to go to Fordham where all his friends were going, and I know he could have gone to a number of schools out of the area with scholarship $$$. When I lived in Pittsburgh, every year I would commiserate with parents of top students who felt shafted by the financial/merit aid tactics of CMU. CMU has two stacks for admissions and aid--In state and out. And they can fill a class with Pittsburghers. Why should they pay for one unless is is spectacularly outstanding? Just tops doesn't doe it. </p>
<p>3togo, if you look at my post #27, I do address that. Yes, it is 5.6 per year. More than the interest you are likely to earn if it is sitting in a bank, and more than the appreciation for most houses, but those factors will reduce the amount further each year if you want to be precise. I fully understand the argument about the house, and as I mentioned, there are some colleges that allow a certain primary residence allowance. But do look at along the lines of two identical families. Family 1 buys a house with windfall. Family 2 sticks windfall in the bank. Windfall is same amount. Why should Family 1 get break for college costs just because of where he put the same amount of money? And he is enjoying a better house every day he lives in it. better neighborhood, safer, nicer, better schools, etc. </p>
<p>This analogy gets even more complicated cuz guess who gets the financial aid if we add a Family 3 into the picture who spends the whole thing, blows every penny? Since he doesn't have the asset anymore when it come time, he will get the most financial aid. So believe me, I know the system is not fair, and I am pretty aware of the crazy twists and turns it has.</p>
<p>"CMU has two stacks for admissions and aid--In state and out. And they can fill a class with Pittsburghers. Why should they pay for one unless is is spectacularly outstanding? Just tops doesn't doe it."</p>
<p>jamimom: ditto. You can substitue CMU for Rice and Pittusburghers for Houstonians and it will be the same.</p>
<p>We were/are in the same boat. Now we realize that the term 'merit aid' does not mean pure 'merit'. The universities throw in the word 'merit' to bait top local students to apply. Merit $'s are used to address the recuitment goals of the Univeristy in race, gender, zipcode and field of study. It is also more common with the second tier schools who want to rise in the rankings.</p>
<p>Such practice does not appear to be common at some of the top tier schools (e.g. Duke, JHU or Caltech)</p>
<p>Simba:</p>
<p>Here is a link to the "Merit" awards at Duke as taken directly from their website. I think if you look carefully, most of these do have some other requirement. (ie: Residence, Heritage, or even financial need.) The only one that may not is the Robertson, and there are only 15 of those at Duke, and 15 at UNC.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.aas.duke.edu/ousf/%5B/url%5D">http://www.aas.duke.edu/ousf/</a></p>