Looking for advice regarding son's strange decisions

I also forgot to mention. DO NOT have your son talk to an enlisted recruiter, especially a Marine recruiter. Those guys are con artists and snake oil salesmen. They will flat out lie and tell your son almost anything he wants to hear to get him to enlist. NEVER trust a Marine recruiter. They are desperate for numbers and will get those numbers using any means necessary.

If you want real information about the military, ask other military members who are not recruiters. Recruiters are salesmen, and a salesman will never talk bad about their product.

BlueMoon’s posts are very worthwhile – from my background working intensively with (not in) the military for 20 years
Do stick talking to officer recruiters/ROTC folks.

My son (now college sophomore) did go the ROTC route, due to his long-term interest in the Army. So, I can say your son should find ROTC kids at college share the more conservative/disciplined views that he seems interested in finding. Will add my son was doing well with the program, but did decide to stop this year (w/o commitment). Everything was his decision, btw…I believe the largest reason for stopping was just inefficient uses of time. But overall, he was happy to get up and run most days at 6am and do all activities. He still has good friends in the unit. My take is that ROTC provides a good opportunity to see if the “dream” of military life matches what one experiences. Military folks are great, though it’s not for everyone. Being able to have an opportunity to try it without full commitment is wonderful.

The folks on this site are similarly helpful as folks on this forum…great place to ask ROTC type questions and get advice
http://www.serviceacademyforums.com/index.php?forums/rotc.27/
Best wishes!

@jcc @sylvan87989

I said nothing about anyone being a hypocrite. I did say that there is a big difference between a young kid with no children hypothesizing about how a parent ought to feel and a parent who has a grown son or daughter who chooses the military. For that young kid to criticize the fears and concerns of a parent is, IMHO, grossly unbecoming.

And BTW, I’m increasingly disturbed by how many people say that the life of an enlisted person is hell. Anyone concerned about that? .

The enlisted life can be a very good choice for some people. However for someone who is intelligent and driven enough to have the high school achievements of the OP it will be extremely difficult. Not physically (because being an officer is physically challenging too) but emotionally. You are signing on for years, if not an entire career of being undervalued and underestimated because of your rank. Trust the people who have been there done that and what they are telling you.

Any military career is an honorable choice and I have met so many incredibly wonderful talented people in both the enlisted and officer ranks. I would be proud but terrified (not of death which can strike anywhere, but of the difficulties of the life style) if any of my kids picked the military and I would do everything I could to give them chances to talk to those serving about the realities of the different kinds of military careers.

And I support almost anything that makes an enlisted career a better life for those who choose it.

@Consolation I call the life of an enlisted person hell because it is hell, and I’ve been living through it. Have you ever experienced a time in your life where you’re considered lower than other people simply because your ranks being different? Let me give you an example of how different officer vs enlisted it:

When I showed up to enlisted boot camp, they told all of us that we’re dumb pieces of trash who need to learn how to line up, shut up and follow orders. When I did a short stint in officer training, the first they told new officers in training was that they’re the future of the military. They’re going to be the next Generals who run the military, and one of them may even be the next Chief of Staff.

You have to remember that the military’s ranking system was created based on a time when officers were from the aristocracy and enlisted people were dumb peasants who’s highest education level was middle school. The caste system is deeply ingrained in the military, and the system of enlisted vs officer goes back hundreds of years. It’s not going away, and it’s not going to get better. Despite how different of a time we live in, enlisted people are still considered the dumb peasants.

Oh, I believe you, @BlueMoonArmy, but I find it disturbing. It seems like a big waste of human potential, and not what I–as a total outsider–thought the modern military was supposed to be about.

What I find ironic is that the OP was concerned that her intellectually-talented S might be “throwing his life away” by enlisting. (Not going to a service academy or joining ROTC in college.) People went nuts. Yet here you are confirming that she was more or less correct. Although it is an honorable choice, it seems that he would be more or less “throwing himself away” to enlist.

I am also struck by how many CC parents strongly advise ROTC or OTC. Can we have a military that consists mostly of officers? I don’t think so.

Jon Krakauer’s book, “Where Men Win Glory,” might be good reading for the OP’s son.

This was something everyone I knew who served in the military, especially those who served in the listed ranks like BlueMoonArmy made a point to emphasize.

If one has the intellectual capabilities and demonstrated an ability to be admitted to several selective colleges(including FSAs), being in the enlisted ranks with a few possible notable exceptions* would likely mean a life of great frustration from not being able to fully utilize those capabilities and potential and being severely micromanaged as if one cannot be capable of any self-management.

  • E.g.: Enlisted Navy Nuke school which only accepts the top 2-3% of sailors by academic/intelligence in the entire Navy and whose training courses are academically rigorous enough that respectable engineering schools have accepted them for credit towards major as a few friends found after finishing their enlistments and going to college.

CC is a bubble full of students who are or feel themselves to be viable candidates for selective college admissions* and/or merit aid awards.

When compared to the larger overall population of college applicants/HS graduates, they are further to the right side of the academic/intellectual curve than the overall population.

Also, FSAs and officer training programs tend to be much more selective about who they’d accept than boot camps for enlisted soldiers and sailors out of HS with the exception of some exceedingly selective programs like Navy Nuke school.

This is by necessity as a junior enlisted just has to be responsible to ensure he/she’s following orders and being responsible for his/her own assigned duties/tasks. He/she’s also micromanaged/guided heavily by NCOs in areas like meeting/exceeding physical fitness requirements and being proficient in his/her assigned tasks/duties.

An officer trainee/officer on the other hand is not only responsible for following orders and being responsible for his/her own assigned duties/tasks, he/she’s also responsible for the lives of 30-40 soldiers/sailors and the successful completion of tasks and caretaking of property under his/her command at the very beginning of his/her career.

Also, it is on the officer trainee/officer to be proactive in meeting physical fitness requirements and being proficient in his/her assigned duties/tasks with far less micromanagement/guidance than what’s provided to enlisted trainees/junior enlisted personnel.

  • Including the FSAs.

@Consolation Enlisting isn’t “throwing your life away”, but it is wasting your potential. Enlisting is good if you need to turn your life around real quick and options are limited. It’s also good if you have no money for college, and you completely blew off high school or community college and now have a terrible GPA. Once your service commitment is over, the benefits of being a veteran are pretty massive. The Post 9/11 GI Bill is a great benefit to have, and generally a person will come out more mature and level headed.

However, if you have the opportunity to do ROTC or some other commissioning source, it should always be taken. As silly as it sounds, once you’re enlisted, it’s harder to become an officer. I know this makes no sense, and you’d think the military would value officers with enlisted experience, but this isn’t the case. The military would prefer fresh officer recruits who can do 20 years as an officer because they have more of a career left in them.

A prior enlisted officer usually will make it to O-3/O-4 in their 20 years, and by then they’re ready to call it quits. 20 years is enough, and the retirement is good. A fresh officer whose career is on track will make it to O-5 by the time their 20 years is rolling around. If an officer makes O-5, it’s far more likely that they will start chasing O-6 and higher because O-6 is right around the corner for them, and making O-6 is a very tempting proposition. That’s the rank where an officer really starts to be a tier above everyone else, and a LOT of status, respect and authority come with it. The civilian equivalent is if you’ve been working as a middle manager your whole career, then suddenly you’re told that you’ve been promoted to upper management, and they want to get you trained up so you can sit on the Board of Directors some day.

The military can’t be nothing but officers, but at the same time there’s no shortage of people enlisting to fill in the enlisted ranks. Just remember that for every 4.0 GPA valedictorian all-star kid that you have, there are 10 more kids out there with a GPA below 2.0, a middle school reading level, a crayon up their nose and an ACT score of 10 that is willing to enlist because they think Call of Duty and Battlefield is the coolest thing ever. Not every enlisted person is like this, but those types of people are drawn to enlisting over the average person. States that produce a lot of enlisted recruits are states in the Deep South. And what do those states have in common? Low education levels. Unfortunately, dumb people like to walk into the recruiters office and sign up all the time, and recruiters are too concerned with their numbers to turn away people that belong in a daycare instead of the military.

There are not enough filters in the enlisted ranks to keep these people out. Officers require a degree, which is basically protection against Joe Dirt from commanding hundreds of people. By lacking this filter, being enlisted means that you are more likely to encounter some of the dumbest people you will ever meet in your life. People who won’t shower, won’t clean their room, can’t wake up on time, damage every single piece of property they’re entrusted, can’t tie their boots, screw up everything they lay their hands on, poop on the floor in the bathroom (which I’ve accidentally stepped in before) and feel the need to draw a penis on every single wall they come in contact with. If you have any level of intelligence and maturity, the level of stupidity of some of the E-1 to E-3s you encounter in the military will drive you insane. And if you think it’s bad when you’re one of them, just wait till you make E-5 and now you have to keep these 18/19 year old goons in check and stop them from drawing penises all over the walls.

Noone else has said this, but if this were my kid, I would get some mental health counseling/evaluation. This has nothing to do with the specifics of what he wants to do (the military). It is because it is a sudden change, and would seem to reflect some bitterness and a possible sort of hidden life, based on his comments about safe spaces and antagonism to supposed liberalism on campus. I wonder what he does with his time while online. At the very least, he has some naïve but rigid ideas and doesn’t seem able to think flexibly.

This is an age when mental health diagnoses bloom. If not a diagnosis, then confusion and anxiety about major transitions coming. Any sudden change would be a concern (I speak from personal experience). And the reasons he expresses for enlisting really really concern me.

Enlisting and taking on a years-long commitment in the military in order to experience “real life” and avoid imagined aspects of college life (hanging around competitive peers is avoidable even at Harvard, and studying for the right reasons is very possible.)

This sounds like some sort of self-hatred for being part of the rat race for so many years. I completely understand this.

A counselor or psychologist understands that at this age there is a transition from doing what we “should”, following external motivators, including parents and grades, to more intrinsic motivation and authenticity. This is a complicated transition for everyone, and not everyone does it. It sounds like this is what your son is involved in, but it has gone awry. He is replacing the long and difficult struggle out of childhood to self-motivation and authenticity with the quick and easy solution of enlisting. It’s almost cheating!

This does NOT apply to everyone who wants to enlist in the military. I would feel the same about any kid who, at 18, does an about face like this, justified by immature and nearly delusional ideas. To back up this post, let’s just say that when I was 18 I also got into some Ivies but got on a bus for adventures instead. Too much Jack Kerouac. I really wish my parents had gotten me someone to talk to.

The best way to be useful in this world is to get an education to be of use. I have emphasized usefulness with my own kids. If that means the military in 4 years, great.

We all come to dilemmas like this from our own experiences. One of mine experienced a change at 17 and getting her help helped her get on a good road. It doesn’t have to be the expected one. But the road should not be chosen for the reasons the OP’s son has voiced, in my personal opinion.

@compmom Her son isn’t a mental patient. He’s just an average 17/18 year old. By the age of 18, you’ve just spent almost your entire life in school, and now you’re finally done, but everyone now expects you to go to school again that’s 100 times harder, costs tens of thousands of dollars and that most of your friends won’t be at.

Since when was it expected that a freshly graduated high school student would have their ducks in a row? Most lack the ability to plan anything in advance further than a week. The only reason we can see that he’s making a bad choice is because we either already made the same bad choice, or we know someone else that did. If my parents decided I needed mental help because I didn’t want to go to college, I’d run off and enlist too so I could get away from those helicopter parenting nutjobs.

Kids develop mental health problems when you try to force them into the only path you deem acceptable instead of letting them make their own mistakes. Even if he enlists, his life isn’t over. Once his contract is up, he’s free to do whatever he wants, and he can still get into those same tier 1/Ivy League schools that he got accepted to in high school and while your kid is saddled with over $100,000 in student loans, her son will be 100% debt free. If you go to Dartmouth on the 9/11 GI Bill, their Yellow Ribbon program pays the full coverage for the entire school. No questions asked. Straight covered.

Also, if you want a government job, applying as a non-veteran makes it almost impossible to get. Government jobs are one big revolving door, and the military is the fastest track to get in to that revolving door. I guarantee you that almost everyone here has a worse retirement plan at their job than the Federal Employee Retirement System and your 401k is garbage compared to the Thrift Savings Plan. There is no losing by enlisting and nothing is lost. You’re going to experience a lot of suck, but life is 1000 times easier once your contract is over because there are veteran’s benefits everywhere to help you get back on your feet.

And don’t tell me that “HE COULD DIE/GET MAIMED!” Her son could get a terrible job in a coal mine, the lumber industry, an oil field, deep sea fishing or construction, lose his life or limb, and no one would thank him for his service, he’d have no benefits and they’d fire him with nothing as soon as he got injured and couldn’t work. My cousin enlisted in the Army, got into a bad motorcycle accident and now his legs are full of pins and metal. The VA rated him at 100% disability, which he collects about $4000 a month from, and he can still walk and work just fine. Just can’t run anymore. He was in for about 6 years and he’s 26 years old. Now what other field would take care of you that well? Would Yale or Harvard care if he got into a motorcycle accident? You running off on a bus for adventure instead of going to college isn’t the equivalent of him joining the Marines.

It’s not like going to university will expose him to “real life” anyway. College students live in a silly bubble that gets burst real hard when they graduate and find that the world still expects them to start at the bottom as a grunt until they’re trusted to not break everything the touch. Kids go to college because they think a degree is a quick and easy solution to not have to start from the bottom. However, check out the local Starbucks in a college town and see how well educated your barista is.

I included the normal anxieties of the age: “If not a diagnosis, then confusion and anxiety about major transitions coming.” I didn’t say there was necessarily a major mental health diagnosis that is relevant. Please read what I wrote about this developmental stage of life. I never mentioned danger, either.

If he had planned on going into the military for some years, and then all of a sudden wanted to go to an Ivy, I might make the same comments. Please read my post more carefully.

ps my husband left grad school at an Ivy: first he was drafted and then he reenlisted. Because of his education and skills, he ended up in intelligence…

@compmom "if this were my kid, I would get some mental health counseling/evaluation. "
“This is an age when mental health diagnoses bloom.”

I don’t see any other way to interpret this other than you think he should seek mental help because he wants to try something different in life. It’s silly. I don’t see wanting to join the Marines as confusion or anxiety. I see it was someone who wants to try something different because they don’t like their current path. I mean seriously, what am I supposed to make of this?

“It is because it is a sudden change, and would seem to reflect some bitterness and a possible sort of hidden life,”

Or maybe he’s bored. Or maybe he’s tried of school. Or maybe he wants to walk a different path. What makes you think he’s bitter and has a hidden life by default? My choice to join the military was 100% random too. The recruiter was on my college campus, he wore blue, the pamphlets are blue, I liked the color blue and airplanes look cool. That’s about as much thought as I put into enlisting, and I told my parents for years I would never join the military. Now I’m making it a career. People change their mind. It’s not something crazy.

“He is replacing the long and difficult struggle out of childhood to self-motivation and authenticity with the quick and easy solution of enlisting.”

So by enlisting, he’s running away from reality? He’s not willing to learn and grow because he wants to enlist? Do you think enlisted people just have their hand held while Uncle Sam keeps out big, bad reality?

A kid who’s failing to transition is one who sits in their parent’s room, gets baked half the time and talks about how depressing their situation and their life is, yet is unwilling to do anything about it. I know people in my group of high school friends who legitimately failed to transition. They are 26/27 years old, still work the same dead end jobs since high school, refuse to go back to school, live with their parents and complain about how much they hate their life or themselves, but are content in their own fantasy world. They have no motivation to do anything except collect their paycheck and blow it all on stupid toys to distract themselves from how much they hate their life and their job.

Again, my comments have nothing to do with the military. If he had planned on the military and suddenly wanted to do something else, that would also be a change.

You left out my sentence about confusion and anxiety during transitions, and took my comments about mental health out of context. I believe counseling can be helpful in the absence of diagnoses, despite insurance companies insistence on having them. Virtually any kid facing choices when graduating from high school can benefit from talking to someone. Since this was an apparently sudden change, and his reasons for it seem a little hard to understand, I think it might be helpful for him to articulate them to someone other than his parents. Fifty percent of college students end up doing this. It’s no big deal.

I won’t post again because this isn’t a debating society, but I, like everyone else here, am simply responding to a parent who asked for advice, and we all offer different perspectives. I respect yours, please respect mine.

@compmom “He is replacing the long and difficult struggle out of childhood to self-motivation and authenticity with the quick and easy solution of enlsiting. It’s almost cheating!”

This invalidates you saying you’re not talking about the military.

College can be a quick way to solve uncertainty too. Some people never leave it. In this case, it was the military. That’s not my judgment, it is the fact of the case. Sorry, wasn’t going to post, and I won’t again.

18 year olds look nuts to anyone from the outside. I had a male sib with mental health issues, and sorry – I don’t see that in this kid. Tons of 18 year olds glorify war – this one is no more mentally ill than the rest of them.

A family member chose to join the Navy right out of high school, even though he was accepted to good schools with lots of $. He became a seal and served for 6 years. He ended up paying for college on his own and now regrets his choice to join up at 18. The Marines will still be there after he graduates college and he can go in as an officer.

Hello. So he wants to be a marine and jump from the HS newspaper to basic training? If finances allow, consider enrolling him in a private “military” boot camp and let him approximate the experience for 6 to 8 weeks. He may appreciate being an officer and college ROTC at that point or he may decide his personality does not fit the military culture. You may want him to review the contract for military enrollment. I do not believe there is a clause for “buyer’s regret”. He may wish to consider what skill set he presents for duty assignment. None at this point. His aptitudes may or may not be discovered as a noncom based on circumstance. He may enjoy the cerebral involvement of theoretical war games or cyber intelligence, or such but he will have to have the rigorous education to get there. He may benefit from counseling regarding achieving career objectives but at 18 yo my only objective was to get out.and not come back. I did it with 29 yrs of formal education.

My son is currently at one of the service academies, and there are several classmates who were accepted after serving as enlisted soldiers. If he’s determined to go in enlisted, he still has a strong chance of being accepted to an academy. He can apply after serving a year or two and merely extend his commitment. Actually, it’s done fairly frequently. Your son’s strong academic record, coupled with military service, will undoubtedly put him ahead of the pool when attempting to get his nomination. Just food for thought.