<p>Juilliard’s also decreasing the size of their program because they want to make it more selective.</p>
<p>just to weigh in - someone i know well went to julliard prep about 8-10 years ago. she was very unhappy there because of the level of competitiveness among both the parents and the kids. she does not play a “solo instrument”, but was very serious about music. she ended up leaving julliard after 3 or 4 years and going to walnut hill in order to go to NEC prep where she found a more comfortable environment and was very happy. this is just one person’s story, but it confirms what others have written above.</p>
<p>Cosmos-</p>
<p>The contraction has already occurred there, over the past several years they have shrunk the size of the program significantly. The pre college program used to have three orchestras, they dropped the lower one in contracting. Part of it was done because of space reasons, part because they supposedly didn’t want to take in students below a certain level. I have seen students in the pre-college violin program who were admitted before the contraction who wouldn’t make it in the program today, the standards are incredibly high. I suspect that is only going to make the program even more competitive (which I don’t think is a good thing, for a number of reasons)</p>
<p>Yes, I understand all of this considering that I was a student there for 5 years and continue studying with my teacher from Juilliard now. </p>
<p>These arguments about Juilliard Prep on this board are all really one-sided. Juilliard Prep isn’t the place for everyone, but what school is?? It works great for some people, not for others. Some people are happy there, some aren’t… Overall it’s a fantastic program and any student who’s enrolled in it should make the most of his or her time there and learn as much as he or she can because Juilliard has great resources, faculty, student body, and is in a location that can offer a huge amount to any music student.</p>
<p>Any other former or current Juilliard Prep STUDENT could back these claims up. I’m not saying it’s the BEST place for everyone, I’m just saying that it shouldn’t be bashed and treated like it’s the devil just because some people don’t like it.</p>
<p>It isn’t bashing, it is telling another side of the story about the Juilliard pre college program, people were talking about their experiences with it, as you, Cosmos, were talking about yours. I think it is valuable for people to talk about the good and bad sides of any program, and especially with Juilliard that has this incredible hype about it being ‘the only place’ or ‘the best’, it is important that people talk about the realities of it or any program for that matter. There is so much hype out there that it isn’t healthy. You have kids who get all distraught because they didn’t get in Juilliard and that means the end of their dreams to study music, there is this incredible idea that there is Juilliard and ‘everywhere else’ (kind of like the old Steinberg New Yorker painting of the world, where NYC is the center of the globe), and it needs to be countered. People who wrote on here are writing of their experiences and they have a right to say what they are. They can’t be responsible if others with opposite perspectives don’t write about them, if their perspective is negative that is what they have experienced. I also will add that the hype about Juilliard also tends to leave out some pertinent facts, like that 50% of the kids going into the program never go into music, and of the remaining 50% that do go into music a lot of them end up dropping it, the point being that despite the hype just getting into the program does not guarantee success which is the popular myth that is out there (and likewise, kids who go other routes often end up quite successful).</p>
<p>As far as Juilliard students, past and present, go, I know people who have gone through both the pre college, college and graduate programs who would have a different perspective then yours, more then a few of them looking back wished they had done something different.It also depends on what part of the program you are in, people who go through the string or piano programs are definitely going to have a different experience then someone on another instrument, those programs are way different then others in the school, and I hear the voice program is much the same way, those are hypercompetitive and yes, cutthroat programs, something you may not have experienced (I told the story of parents doing things like trying to sabotage the instruments of others in the string program that they felt were competitors to their child, I am not making that up, they also have had cases where some parents have gotten abusive with teachers because they expected their child to be a ‘star soloist’ and when they didn’t, went ballistic on them). </p>
<p>Does that mean the school is bad or somehow unworthy? No, they do offer a lot, it is a high level program, no one is doubting that, but I think it is also important that people realize the reality that no program is the right thing to all (which you have pointed out), and that there may be things in the program it is good to be aware of before thinking of applying to it, and that the experience is not uniform, that the string and piano program can be quite different then someone going through on the oboe or clarinet, that is the point. What you see as bashing is simply people offering different perspectives from the standard myth, that’s all, and it is valuable. And given that hype, it is unlikely what people write on any board is going to change things one iota in terms of the school for the good or the bad.</p>
<p>Getting both sides of a story is fine, but not when people are throwing are unciting statistics about a program and pretty much just discussing things from a speculative basis. The most reliable information about an institution comes from current students/faculty/staff and information/statistics that can be cited back to a source that has a solid methodology for producing that information. </p>
<p>This argument is not about whether Juilliard is a good or a bad place, it is about the fact that one must make that kind of judgment after hearing reliable information, not hearsay and speculation.</p>
<p>Cosmos –</p>
<p>I appreciate your loyalty to Julliard Prep. The information I gave related to the specific experience of a specific person whom I knew then and continue to know very well. It would be inflammatory if I went into detail about the practises of parents that were described to me by her and her parents, but it was pretty bad. I don’t have any problem sharing this information with new parents who might be thinking about sending their kids there. It is important to know what you’re getting into. This is not “bashing”. </p>
<p>I’m glad Julliard worked for you as it obviously does for a lot of kids.</p>
<p>Cosmos-
The stuff I wrote about came to me from insiders, it is not ‘speculation’, I know some ofthe teachers in the string program and know people currently in the program and who have gone there in the past, and the stuff I cited came from them.The numbers of kids going into music from Juilliard pre college and then going on to careers in the field are out there, Juilliard themselves talks about that, and it isn’t that Juilliard is or isn’t good, it is the realities of the field. </p>
<p>I am glad you enjoyed going there, that you found the experience rewarding, as I am sure other kids have and will continue to, but there are other stories there, too, of the side that the school would probably rather not publish (for example, they make the string program seem like a bunch of talented kids who other then being talented, are just like other kids, happily playing tag in the halls,etc…when the reality is that doesn’t describe the experience I routinely hear about from insiders). Your statement about bashing Juilliard comes off as being “don’t knock Juilliard, I went there and it wasn’t like that at all”, which while it may have been your experience is not everyone’s, it couldn’t be, no program is totally good (or totally bad), and no one was trying to knock anything, they were just trying to comment on the nature of the program and that it could be rough in some quarters, or that competition and cutthroat behavior was not unknown in some parts of the program, that’s all.</p>
<p>You can knock Juilliard if you want to, I don’t really care, but the kind of information that shouldn’t be spread is, “I know someone who knows someone who went to Juilliard Prep 15 years ago and said X about the school.” That kind of information is not only unreliable, it’s detrimental to the person who is gathering information about the school and deciding whether or not to apply/attend. Also, information/statistics that cannot be cited to a source with an unbiased methodology should also not be propagated. </p>
<p>Re: Juilliard - Honestly, the competitive atmosphere there is one of the best things about it - How are students supposed to learn how to deal with competition if they’re never exposed to it because they avoid schools and situations that are crazy and competitive? It builds self-confidence… Sure the school isn’t good for everyone and isn’t perfect for anyone, but if there’s a teacher there you want to study with, you should go and make the most of the rest of the aspects that you enjoy, ignore what you don’t like (or try to change it if you want), and allow the program to help you grow. </p>
<p>If students don’t want to deal with that kind of atmosphere, they don’t have to attend, but dealing with attending a school where kids/faculty/staff/parents might not always be nice or fair all the time is a very good thing for dealing with auditions and other similar obstacles down the road. </p>
<p>Also, I didn’t like everything about Juilliard Prep, so please don’t act like you know how I feel about the place because about 25% of the time I was not happy there. Still, I am happy that I was a student there and wish I had started there earlier because I learned a lot about being a good musician, colleague, and student, about how to study effectively, about how to deal with competition, auditions, nerves, unfair teachers, and about music generally. It helped me become more independent and fostered self-esteem and confidence in ways that I didn’t get in ordinary high school.</p>
<p>Cosmos-</p>
<p>Now you are the one making things up, you are saying “something heard from someone who knew someone who went their years ago that may not apply”. Sorry chief, but you missed the boat on that one. I clearly said what my sources were, these were from teachers in the program today, they are from people who are in the program and recently graduated, this isn’t 15 years ago,this is current, up to date. Plus there are professional musicians I am in contact with here in the NY music scene, who have kept ties to Juilliard and they are seeing the same thing. I think it is valuable to know what goes on in a program in all aspects, and if you feel that is bashing Juilliard, that is your right, but it wasn’t, it was simply giving an assesment of some of the negatives people have seen. You didn’t see those, which is fine, but I also will add you were in a different area then at least I am talking about, so YMMV.</p>
<p>We know a couple of string players who travel the many miles to Juilliard pre-college every weekend when they have a half decent 
pre-college program right in their backyard.</p>
<p>I’d say that the only people who really know the ins and outs of any program are those who have been participants. The rest is just hearsay, and opinion, and you know what they say about opinions…</p>
<p>^ Yes. That is all I was trying to say.</p>
<p>So, I’m wondering what happened with Smarts1. How did your audition at MSM go? Did you audition at Julliard or Mannes?</p>
<p>They may not know yet, if voice works like instrumental. Friend of my son’s auditioned there for cello and after the two rounds of auditions they require for instrumentalists (apparently, unlike Juilliards program, you audition for the department then you have to audition for the chamber coachers, orchestra conductors and so forth, both have to approve the applicant), and they aren’t giving notice until June 15th according to my son’s friend.</p>
<p>Yes, it is the same for voice as for instrumentalists. I was inquiring as to how Smarts1 felt the audition went. He started the thread, but I’m not sure he’s come back to share about the experience of even if he was called back to the second round of auditions. </p>
<p>My daughter is practically counting the minutes to the 15th. I’m only counting the hours. :)</p>
<p>My D auditioned and was called back for a voice audition at MSM precollege. She had wanted to audition at Juilliard but was ill. She also auditioned at Mannes precollege. Unfortunately, she was not accept at MSM after the callback. She is a soprano and is quite young (just turned 14). She was accepted to Mannes precollege. Does anyone know anything about the Mannes precollege voice program. Is it selective? She will probably attend because she will receive weekly classes in ear-training and theory as well as ensemble performance opportunities.</p>
<p>njmom-</p>
<p>The waiting is the hardest part, as I know only too well. Our son this year made it into the Juilliard pre college program for violin on his third attempt, and the waiting is the hardest part of the process in many ways. You don’t know whether the delay is good or bad, whether you aren’t hearing because it hasn’t been decided or because they figure it doesn’t matter for those not accepted and so forth. Even where there is some ambivalence, as with my son’s situation, it is a hard wait to find out. Course that is true of a lot of things, waiting to hear the result of a job interview, college audition, etc.</p>
<p>My fingers are crossed for your daughter, I hope she gets in and has a wonderful time:)</p>
<p>Once again…anyone familiar with Mannes precollege for voice? Is it selective? What percent are accepted? Are the teachers strong?</p>
<p>Thank you for your well wishes for my daughter musicprnt. You’re right about the waiting…it’s so nerve wracking. </p>
<p>Researchmaven, as for Mannes precollege, I’ve heard it is a very good program overall, but I don’t know much about their voice department, sorry. Have you done a search on these boards for Mannes precollege? </p>
<p>Do you mind my asking how you know your daughter didn’t get in after callbacks at MSM Precollege? We haven’t heard anything yet, and I was under the impression we wouldn’t hear anything until next week.</p>
<br>
<br>
<p>I am not familiar with the precollege programs at Mannes…but I do wonder…why do you keep asking if it’s “selective”? It would seem that you should be looking at your daughter’s potential experiences with the program and decide if they will benefit your daughter. If they do, then she should do the program…if not, she should not no matter how selective the program is.</p>