Michigan v. Notre Dame HELP PLEASE!!!!

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of Michigan
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<p>Project, I suggest you look more closely into it. Michigan's student body and Notre Dame's student body are about the same in terms of talent, ability and drive. The mean SAT score at Notre Dame is about 60 points higher, but Michigan de-emphasizes standardized tests. Many Michigan students know before hand that they are going to stay in-state (Michigan or MSU) and they do not bother preparing/giving their best shot for the ACT/SAT. That explains why many students have disproportionately low standardized test scores. But in terms of class rank and unweighed and weighed GPAs, Michigan and Notre Dame are pretty similar. It is harder to get into Notre Dame because they are much smaller. So whereas Michigan must accept 50% of its applicants to fill its class, Notre Dame just needs to 30% of its applicants. But in terms of the quality of the student body, they are pretty much the same. But in the end, when it comes to employment and graduate school matruculations, Michigan holds its own against Notre Dame...and that is the truest indicator of student quality.</p>

<p>I personally see a lot wrong with favoring children of alums to the extreme. It is ok to favor a few, but when over 10% of your student body is made up of legacies, it gets a little too inbred. It's like I said, when 80%+ of your students practice the exact same faith, are of the same race, share the same political and social views, you will have a diversity of thought vacuum. I saw it in the Catholic Schools I attended. And I had not thought about it, but when over 10% of your student body are children of alums, the vacuum is further intensified.</p>

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<p>Obviously NDers arent going to admit Michigan is better nor are UMichers going to admit that ND is better.</p>

<p>I dont think this board is constructive anymore as was its original purpose.
It would be nice if someone would dispaly all the facts so people can make and unbiased decision.</p>

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<p>Alexandre:</p>

<p>Ah, so you are using a ranking system that is highly controversial due to its favoring of research universities. Make sure you let the people that read your long list of rankings know that, because it's fairly important.</p>

<p>*I already provided several links that demonstrate that Michigan students get better paying jobs upon graduation. *</p>

<p>You provided websites to the business and law schools of ND and UM! That is, sad to say, not your typical ND/UM student! This is entirely important because it's not a reflection of the majority of students -- the undergrads. </p>

<p>Average GPAs and class ranks of Michigan students are actually higher than Notre Dame students</p>

<p><a href="http://www.umich.edu/%7Eoapainfo/TABLES/PDF/FreshProfFA00toFA04.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.umich.edu/~oapainfo/TABLES/PDF/FreshProfFA00toFA04.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>High School Rank isn't officially reported. That's right off their website.</p>

<p>If you think that ND is a fine university, then don't say that they don't hold a light to Michigan. And if you don't mislead, then tell both sides of the story, and don't quote misleading information without citation and explanation.</p>

<p>The reason ND ranks higher than UM on USNWR is because, totally (not just hardcore academia), ND offers a higher quality education and experience. Of course, it's only 4 places higher, so give and take what they say, and UM and ND are about equal in their eyes. Alumni giving rates are so much higher at ND because the university is loved by, generally speaking, everyone that goes there. That's what I'd be looking for in a college. The fact that they ranked extraordinarily high academically and give you great job opportunities makes it just that much better. To each their own, I suppose. I will argue for myself.</p>

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<p>Terminator, Michigan is SUPERIOR to Notre Dame. Whether you accept it or not is not my problem. But it is generally accepted by academe and corporate recruiters. Notre Dame does not come close to Michigan when it comes to overal academics. As an institution, Michigan is far ahead. That's what Fiske measures and that's what the Peer Assessment in the USNWR measures. Both give Michigan a clear advantage over Notre Dame and rightly so. Michigan is the better university. It has the better faculty, the better departments, an equally good student body and better resources. In every measurable way, Michigan is either equal to Notre Dame or better.</p>

<p>And although I only provided the starting salaries of students attending the undergraduate schools of Engineering and Business, I also showed where many of Michigan undergrads go right after they graduate (top Law and Medical Schools and graduate schools of Engineering and Business). And we never mention our Nursing majors. Close to 100% of our nurses get jobs and average starting salaries are close to $40,000. That's pretty respectable for a 22 year old. I am already accounting for over 50% of Michigan's undergraduate student body. And close to 50% of Michigan graduate school students belong to the professional schools...all of which are highly ranked and lead to very lucrative careers. I cannot account for the remaining 50% of the student body, but many of the go on to work for large companies or go to graduate schools around the nation for further studies.</p>

<p>As far as the quality of education you receive at those two schools, it depends on the individual. I completely agree with that. I have said it all along. A person can get the best education at Notre Dame, if Notre Dame is right for her/him. The same thing can be said of any university from Harvard to Joe Shmoe U.! But it must be remembered that Notre Dame can only accommodate a tiny portion of the population. Most people would not feel comfortable or happy in an environment such as Notre Dame's.</p>

<p>As for the USNWR overall ranking, it is a joke. Washington University ranked ahead of Cal, Brown, Cornell, Chicago, Johns Hopkins? Yeah...right!!! And Penn and Duke ranked ahead of MIT and Stanford? I'd have some of what they are smoking...if I smoked!!! LOL The problem main problem with the USNWR, aside from being way to formulaic, is that it makes people's minds up for them...and in their attempt to please the masses, they end up misleading everybody. </p>

<p>And by the way, alumni giving rate has nothing to do with alumni satisfaction or school spirit. It has to do with the size of the alumni body (the smaller it is, the easier it is to reach them), the amount of money the university spends to reach out to them...and how willing the university is to be bribed in admitting their alums' children!!! I have 7 friends who went to CalTech. They all give thousands of $$$ a year to their Alma Matter. But if you ask them about their memories of their college years, they would all tell you that they had a very mediocre time. And if you ask them if they would want to send their kids their one day, all of them would say that they would not recommend it to their children. But, they are proud of their school, they are thankful for the incredible education they got and the CalTech can reach them (as well as all of its alums) at the drop of a hat. Think about it. Caltech has fewer alums than Michigan's Business school! On the other hand, a school like Michigan has 400,000+ living alums. Most of them adored their college years and bleed their school colors. But to reach even a tiny fraction of their alums is such a monumental undertaking that Michigan only focuses on a few. But why don't you take a look at how much those alums give? </p>

<p>If you look at all my posts about the Gourman report, I make sure to state that it is one-dimentional and too absolute. It is. And for people who want to look at LACs, Gourman is not for them. However, for those who are looking at research universities, Gourman is pretty accurate. I certainly find it more accurate than the USNWR. At least Penn and Duke aren't ranked #4 and #5 respectively. And Washington U. is not ranked #9 in the nation. And Cal and Michigan aren't ranked out of the top 15. And Wisconsin and UCLA, although slightly over-ranked by Gourman, are at least given the respect they richly deserve. I have an issue with just 5 of Gourman's top 20 (as opposed to 9 of the USNWR). The 5 are Michigan (they should be ranked between #6 and #15, not in the top 5), MIT and CalTech (they should be ranked among the top 6 or 7), Wisconsin and UCLA (they should be ranked out of the top 15, but among the top 25). As you can see, I do not have an issue with Notre Dame being ranked #16, nor have I ever said that Notre Dame is overrated. I respect Notre Dame a great deal. But the insitution in its totality is not as good as Michigan.</p>

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<p>As a grad of UM, I agree that it is a "better" university. My beef with it (as well as any big state school) is the quality of the education. I distinctly remember a number theory class taught by some Eastern European "genius" with no ability to teach. I just stopped attending and learned enough by myself to pass the class.
My son is now applying to colleges, including UM, ND, UNC, Ivies. We have tried over the years to convince him that if he goes to a big state school, he should get into a small program such as Honors,RC, etc, so that there is someone who knows that he is
there. I was fortunate to be in a small program (the ill fated Inteflex program); otherwise, I think I may have floundered there. I think UM would be OK for an aggressive self starter who knows what he/she wants to get out of his education. ND has more aof a small LAC feel to it.</p>

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<p>as one piece of unbiased, verifiable evidence, consider this article in today's Boston Globe Magazine:
<a href="http://www.boston.com/news/globe/magazine/articles/2005/01/09/making_the_grade?pg=full%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.boston.com/news/globe/magazine/articles/2005/01/09/making_the_grade?pg=full&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>No mention of Our Lady.</p>

<p>Although it's difficult to read (was full page in the actual magazine), check out the three schools listed in the title page illustration toward the top right.</p>

<p>Go Blue!</p>

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<p>In they eyes of top corporations, and most grad schools, Notre Dame holds much greater weight than a state school that will admits students with 25's on their act. Michigan is a fantastic school, but in the end Notre Dame is SUPERIOR to Michigan. #18 to #22....</p>

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<p>Torn,
Where are the facts that back up your claims? I gave you an example earlier (Wall Street and Harris Interactive) that corporate recruiters ranked Michigan's MBA #1 this year, while Notre Dame is not even on the list.</p>

<p>As for graduate school, the deans and department heads showed their preference for Michigan over Notre Dame by their peer assessment score of 4.6 to 3.9.</p>

<p>See, if you can make ridiculous claims, so can I!</p>

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<p>You indicated Michigan's MBA program. I am comparing UNDERGRAD. Michigan's graduate schools ARE far SUPERIOR to the graduate schools of ND. Michigan's Law school is amazing (I hope to go there one day), and I am sure there other graduate programs are stellar. However, when it comes to undergrad, ND is superior to Mich...</p>

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<p>Torn, over 200 Michigan students get into top 25 Law Schools annually. Notre Dame sends fewer than 100 to top 25 Law schools. Michigan sent 15 students to Wharton this year. Notre Dame did not send more than 4 because they were not in Wharton's list of 5+ acceptances. WSJ actually conducted some research on which schools send the most students to the top graduate schools and Michigan and Notre Dame were about equal...in terms of percentages. Michigan sent 156 of its 5,700 graduating class to top 5 Law schools, top 5 MBA programs and top 5 Medical schools. Notre Dame sent 45 out of its 2,000 graduating class. And this number does not include the school of Engineering. 20% of Michigan's student body is made up of Engineers and many of them go to top graduate programs in Engineering. As GoBlue pointed out, if you want academe's opinion of universities, go no further than the peer assessment score in the USNWR.</p>

<p>As you point out, Michigan is superior to Notre Dame at the graduate level. At the undergruadate level, they are about the same. But overall, Michigan is superior to Notre Dame.</p>

<p>I also provided you with stats on undergraduate salaries. Michigan undergrads stat at a higher pay than Notre Dame undergrads.</p>

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<p>Harvard Law School currently has 18 Mich students and 16 Notre Dame students, proportionally speaking Notre Dame holds the edge there. In the corporate world, ND's alumni connections and reputation place it way ahead of michigan...</p>

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<p>Actually, I wouldn't go into the corporate world if I were you. The biz school here is very highly regarded. Even the undergrad students there are constantly being BEGGED to do internships and many prestigious corporations.</p>

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<p>Torn, Michigan had 15 acceptances to Harvard Law last year. Only 8 decided to go there. Obviously there are other top Law schools. Michigan sent 14 to Columbia Law and over 70 to Michigan law. That is HUGE. Many of the 70 Michigan undergrads who decided to stay at Michigan had offers from the top top 6 or 7 Law schools. Another 10 went to NYU Law. Curently, there are 15 Michigan alums at the Chicago Law school compared to just 3 from Notre Dame. Also, there are currently 7 Michigan alums at Yale Law school compared to 3 from Notre Dame. Michigan actually has a proportional advantage in the top 6 or 7 Law schools. But for argument's sake, I will say they are even in terms of Law school placement. Michigan also has an advantage in MBA program placements and in terms of Medical school placement.</p>

<p>As for networks, Michigan has an edge...not in terms of loyalty (I would say Michigan and Notre Dame are equal in that regard), but in terms of size.</p>

<p>Finally, reputation. Michigan has a better reputation. That's why it is ranked much higher in most ways, from recruiter rankings peer assessments.</p>

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<p>Torn,
Again you have not given any proof aside from your words and your logic. You claimed that "top corporations and most graduate schools" prefer Notre Dame over Michigan. How do you know? You haven't even begun to look for a job yet.</p>

<p>I can tell you that at least for the business and engineering fields, your assumptions are WRONG. I don't think I need to convince you on engineering... Notre Dame is not known for its engineering. As for business, you claim that ND's alumni connection will give it the edge over Michigan. Well, Michigan has over 400,000 living alumni, and the alumni connection for the BBA/MBA grads are the strongest. That must be two or three times more than ND. You go figure that.</p>

<p>And I've already proven to you that grad school deans and department heads prefer Michigan, as is evident from the peer assessment score of Michigan's undergraduate program, 4.6 to ND's 3.9.</p>

<p>Btw, if the Michigan MBA's are getting the jobs, which campus do you think they will prefer to recruit when it's time to hire? Now, that's alumni connection. See, I can make unsupported claims as well as you can.</p>

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<p>Many of the 70 Michigan undergrads who decided to stay at Michigan had offers from the top top 6 or 7 Law schools.</p>

<p>That's speculation Alexandre</p>

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<p>Personally, I think this thread has gone on long enough, so this will be my final post. I would just like to say that Michigan is a fine institution, my older brother goes there and loves it. Many very bright students attend Michigan. However, when it comes to student quality, Notre Dame is superior. To gain admission to Notre Dame, one truly has to be a stellar applicant, many not so stellar students attend Michigan (as the stats and my brother's own anecdotal evidence demonstrate). In the world of Graduate school placement, I would say Notre Dame fares better in Law and Michigan does better for MBA's and Med schools. Pertaining to undergraduate salaries, it does not surprise me that Michigan business students have a higher salary than those from Notre Dame. One has to apply into Michigan Business to be accepted. Hence, only the top students at Mich are in the Bus. school. I would like to see the average salaries of those who graduate from ND and Mich from liberal arts majors. Both schools are great, and I doubt anyone will change anyone's mind as of now. That said Go Irish, and on behalf of my brother Go Blue!</p>

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<p>No Torn, it is fact. Michigan is one of the top 6 or 7 Law schools. It is very selective. As such, it is obviously that several of the 70 Michigan students who decided to stay at Michigan had acceptances into other top 6 or 7 Law Schools. </p>

<p>By the way, of the:
4 Michigan students who got into Yale Law, all 4 decided to enroll
100 Michigan students who got into Michigan Law, 63 decided to enroll
15 Michigan students who got into Harvard Law, just 8 decided to enroll
30 Michigan students who got into Columbia Law, just 15 decided to enroll
6 Michigan students who got into Stanford Law, just 3 decided to enroll
31 Michigan students who got into NYU Law, just 10 decided to enroll
18 Michigan students who got into Chicago Law, just 3 decided to enroll.
14 Michigan students who got into Duke Law, just 3 decided to enroll
18 Michigan students who got into Penn Law, just 4 decided to enroll
15 Michigan students who got into UVA Law, just 3 decided to enrooll
9 Michigan students who got into Cal-Berkeley, just 3 decided to enroll
15 Michigan students who got into Cornell Law, just 2 decided to enroll
40 Michigan students who got into Georgetown Law, just 4 decided to enroll
33 Michigan students who got into Northwestern Law, just 8 decided to enroll</p>

<p>I would say the 14 schools above all have a a legitimate claim to the top 10 Law schools. </p>

<p>Michigan had 250 acceptances into those top 10 Law schools above (not including Michigan) and since just 70 of them decided to accept those offers, it means that 180 turned down their offers. Obviously, many of those acceptances were to the same students. However, it is safe to assume that several of those acceptances were turned down in favor of Michigan.</p>

<p>Only 2 Law schools had a better than 60% yield. Yale (4 for 4) and Michigan (63 for 100).</p>

<p>I am attaching the stats for your perusal. </p>

<p><a href="http://www.lsa.umich.edu/lsa/detail/0,2034,12364%255Farticle%255F198,00.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.lsa.umich.edu/lsa/detail/0,2034,12364%255Farticle%255F198,00.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Clearly, Michigan students have options, and many who decided to stay at Michigan could have gone to schools like Harvard, Stanford, Chicago, NYU, Columbia etc... if they so wished.</p>

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<p>Notre Dame does not come close to Michigan when it comes to overal academics. As an institution, Michigan is far ahead.</p>

<p>They are not far ahead. In terms of hardcore academia, Michigan probably does hold an advantage. They do not blow ND away.</p>

<p>You haven't reported any statistics showing that UM undergraduates make more than ND undergraduates. If you can't account for 50% of the student body, then it's very speculative. I think that ND students hold an edge in this category, though I don't have the desire to look up statistics. I think someone else did. I'm almost sure that ND students make more. </p>

<p>Harvard Law, 2004-2005: 18 UM students, 16 ND students. Proportionally, I'm sure you can tell the difference. </p>

<p>Most people would not feel comfortable or happy in an environment such as Notre Dame's.</p>

<p>Have you ever considered freshman retention rates or overall satisfaction polls taken of student bodies? This is one area where ND has a clear advantage over UM.</p>

<p>And by the way, alumni giving rate has nothing to do with alumni satisfaction or school spirit.</p>

<p>I think it has a great deal to do with that, perhaps 100% of that. But, who knows. Maybe because ND's student body is smaller than UM's, the # to reach ND is significantly easier to dial and make a donation. :<</p>

<p>As for the USNWR overall ranking, it is a joke.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/college/rankings/about/05rank_brief.php%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/college/rankings/about/05rank_brief.php&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>From the ranking methodology, it looks concrete to me. I might be taking a stab in the dark here, but maybe you don't like it because it doesn't favor your university? :> I think UM really gets hit hard by selectivity, retention, and alumni giving. Especially selectivity. If you live in Michigan, it doesn't require a miracle to get into UM. </p>

<p>And for people who want to look at LACs, Gourman is not for them. However, for those who are looking at research universities, Gourman is pretty accurate.</p>

<p>You previously stated that research universities get more love than LAC's in Gourman's rankings. So, I fail to see why you'd rely on it if it favors you, but you wouldn't if it didn't favor you. It's kind of reminiscent of your view on USNWR. Me, I don't go to statistics that please me. I go to the most accurate ones. Different philosophies, I suppose.</p>

<p>Michigan sent 156 of its 5,700 graduating class to top 5 Law schools, top 5 MBA programs and top 5 Medical schools. Notre Dame sent 45 out of its 2,000 graduating class.</p>

<p>Michigan: 2.73%
ND: 2.25%</p>

<p>Where did you get this information from, I'd like to know. Even if it is accurate, which I doubt it is, UM clearly doesn't blow ND academically.</p>

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<p>Alexandre, I wasn't saying Michigan law wasn't a top 7 Law school, it is. I was saying that their students don't place into law schools as well as Notre Dame students.</p>

<p>Interesting fact: According to that same website that you linked, ONLY 66% of Michigan Students GET INTO law school.</p>

<p>According to this: <a href="http://admissions.nd.edu/firstyear/statistics.cfm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://admissions.nd.edu/firstyear/statistics.cfm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>90% of Notre Dame students get into Law school.</p>

<p>Ouch 66% to 90%... rough</p>

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<p>TORN, Michigan places students into Law schools just as well as Notre Dame, if not better. As the website above shows, close to 150 Michigan undergraduate students enroll into top 10 Law schools annually and another 150 enroll into schools that are ranked between #15 and #30. I doubt Notre Dame does better, even when taking size differences in our undergraduate student bodies into consideration.</p>

<p>Notre Dame does in fact report that 90% of their students who apply to law schools get accepted but it does not specify for which year or groups of years. It varies significantly from year to year. With the exception of last year, Michigan has averaged about 85% successful placement into Law schools since 1995. Last year, close 1,200 students applied, compared to the usual 700-900 applicants in previous years. I suspect that has something to do with the unusually low placement rates. But I think that's a national phenomena. If you look at national figures, acceptance rates into Law schools were hovering at around 70% and it has dipped to under 60% this year. Maybe Notre Dame is reporting old data.</p>

<p>By the way Torn, I do not question Notre Dame's academic excellence for undergraduate studies. The top 30 or so universities in the country are all about equal when it comes to undergraduate education.</p>

<p>TERMINATOR, selectivity does not hurt Michigan in the USNWR ranking. According to the USNWR, Michigan's selectivity rank is 18th in the nation (Notre Dame is 21st). What hurts Michigan is the 85% graduation rate (roughly 10% of Michigan student's body are in over their head because of Michigan's admissions policy toward URMs) and alumni giving rates (400,000 alums just aren't that easy to reach). If you drop those two criteria from the methodology, Michigan jumps to #10 or #11 in the nation. </p>

<p>I do not like the USNWR overall rankings because of several reasons...one of them because they rank Cal, Michigan and several other elite universities way below their deserved spot simply because they are state funded. But I also think that the USWN is full of **** and hot air. Like I said, Penn and Duke should not be ranked above Stanford and MIT. Washington U should not be ranked ahead of Cornell, Chicago, Johns Hopkins, Cal and Brown. I find the USNWR lacking in several ways.</p>

<p>And Michigan DOES blow Notre Dame away in terms of hard core academics. It is not even close. Michigan is ranked in the top 10 in every field of study save Chemistry. Notre Dame is not ranked in the top 20 in any field of study. There is a clear difference.</p>

<p>As for salaries of alums, all the numbers I have seen show that Michigan has the advantage in terms of earnings. And the two studies I saw (one by Fortune or Forbes and the other by the Petterson University Guide) both had Michigan as the 4th highest paid/wealthiest alumni base per capita (Notre Dame was ranked 6th in one and was not ranked ahead of Michigan in the other).</p>

<p>Harvard Law, Michigan 18, Notre Dame 16. True enough. But annually, Michigan sends between 125-150 (133 last year) undergrads Top 10 Law. Notre Dame? I can guarantee it is lower than 60. </p>

<p>I got the 2.75% and 2.25% figures from a study conducted by the WSJ. I am providing you with the link below. </p>

<p><a href="http://www.wsjclassroom.com/college/feederschools.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.wsjclassroom.com/college/feederschools.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>This study is very incomplete. It would be far more telling if they looked into acceptance rates into top 20 graduate programs rather than just the top 5 programs. And it would be even more telling if they added enrollment into top graduate programs of Engineering.</p>