<p>"So why are we giving the color of one's skin so much power? "</p>
<p>Irish, what I think it boils down to, is that you're not grasping the power of race, particularly how deeply it is engrained in society and individual consciousness. You're reducing race to skin color and not considering the deeper social aspects.</p>
<p>If there are deeper social aspects, I am saying that should be considered on a case by case basis, but you are right, I don't believe that everyone of a certain race has those deeper social aspects. There is a belief that anyone who is a minority is at a strong disadvantage in this country, and it sounds like you agree with that. I reject that assumption. Is there some racism, I am sure there is, is it worth 300 SAT points, I think it isn't in most cases, but perhaps it is in some. </p>
<p>"you're not grasping the power of race, particularly how deeply it is engrained in society and individual consciousness." </p>
<p>Ingrained in that statement is the assumption on your part that you are right and I am wrong. Who knows who is actually right, because at the end of the day, it is impossible to know. I am open to the fact that in some cases, yes, perhaps someone deserves 300+ SAT points of a boost, but not across the board. </p>
<p>Would you agree that in some cases, even just a few, a minority applicant may have had more opportunities than a white applicant and perhaps in some cases a white applicant deserves more consideration than a minority?</p>
<p>mojojojo69, haha wow you were quick to reply, you must be really attached to this forum, 2,000 posts, get a life faggot...come by NYC and talk like that homey, instead of behind a computer screen.</p>
<p>Dignity in the discussion, please! There is no need for that. It contributes nothing.</p>
<p>Irish,
No, I am not saying you're wrong and I'm right. Your responses HAVE consistently ignored the concept of race and you seem to have the typical interpretation of it. Ethical questions are, however, a matter of personal opinion. </p>
<p>Have you been reading my responses? I am for diversity across the board. Also, I thought we had established that standardized tests are flawed and that the application process is much more subjective than that. Also, you're repeating the same arguments over and over again. Yes, in some cases minorities have had more opportunities than whites, and I would say if you have a poor white kid, yes give him consideration. I am also saying that in terms of minorities, it's not simply about disadvantage, it's about what perspective that person brings. BEcause minorities are so traditionally underrepresented, I think the voice of the "wealthy minority" as you say, is unique. </p>
<p>Also, I was troubled by your post earlier when you described your minority friends as being "white". I don't know who your friends are, but one of mine read that and thought it was extremely offensive. We're both graduating from Notre Dame and we should know that. Saying that someone is practically "white" means that they're not black...but what is black? Does that mean that they're from the ghetto? Less intelligent? We should challenge that type of thinking, no matter what our political orientation is. </p>
<p>Finally, I'm starting to think that the main beef people have with AA is that they feel like someone "more qualified" is missing out because these damn minorities are taking their spots. Why do so many whites feel so entitled? People argue that they're against AA because it doesn't lead to equality, but I really think it's white entitlement at work. Just my opinion. Take it or leave it. </p>
<p>Lastly, I think we have engaged in a healthy debate here, even though we're not going to agree. I wish you the best.</p>
<p>This will be my last post on this thread just because certain posters on both sides are getting too nasty. It is pretty obvious who they are. I do thank you Princess and everyone who has honestly debated me on this, I appreciate it. So here are my final responses.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Your responses HAVE consistently ignored the concept of race and you seem to have the typical interpretation of it
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I am not ignoring race, I just view it differently than you. I think things are much improved in the last 30 years and that eliminating AA is the next step to becoming a color-blind society. However, it is hard to know if you are not a minority I suppose.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Yes, in some cases minorities have had more opportunities than whites, and I would say if you have a poor white kid, yes give him consideration. I am also saying that in terms of minorities, it's not simply about disadvantage, it's about what perspective that person brings. BEcause minorities are so traditionally underrepresented, I think the voice of the "wealthy minority" as you say, is unique.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I agree...dang I hate saying that :). By the way I have been reading your posts and I repeat the questions that I feel are unanswered. I also forgot that we had agreed that the SAT is crap earlier on, so I apologize for that.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Also, I was troubled by your post earlier when you described your minority friends as being "white". I don't know who your friends are, but one of mine read that and thought it was extremely offensive. We're both graduating from Notre Dame and we should know that. Saying that someone is practically "white" means that they're not black...but what is black? Does that mean that they're from the ghetto? Less intelligent? We should challenge that type of thinking, no matter what our political orientation is.
[/quote]
.</p>
<p>I am sorry to have offended, that was not my intention. I certainly wasn't trying to say that one race was from the ghetto or anything like that. What I was trying to say is that I have friends who are of a different race than me, and the lines have been blurred so far that they really are no longer there. That is a good thing. I said it in a poor way apparently, and I apologize for that. I hope you know that I wasn't trying to say that people who are a minority are less intelligent or from the ghetto, quite the opposite. I have been fighting this whole time saying that we are at the point where AA isn't needed, that a hand up is unnecessary (this is probably not coming out well but I am trying). I am not saying that minorities are lowly and need help, I am trying to say that they are at a point where I don't think they do! </p>
<p>Also, I hope in this case and in the future you give me the benefit of the doubt. I apologize for your being offended, but assume the best in people.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Finally, I'm starting to think that the main beef people have with AA is that they feel like someone "more qualified" is missing out because these damn minorities are taking their spots. Why do so many whites feel so entitled? People argue that they're against AA because it doesn't lead to equality, but I really think it's white entitlement at work. Just my opinion. Take it or leave it.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I don't think race has anything to do with this, and I will be blunt..I have a lot of trouble seeing people with Ivy League test scores and grades getting turned down here and seeing someone else get in. I said it, that is hard for me. Is it white people being entitled, I don't think race has anything to do with this. I think it is people that did the very best that they could, working their ass off, and still not getting in. It may be making up for injustice, it may be just, but it is still hard to swallow. Put yourself in the person's shoes. Say you are working as a doctor, and as a darn good one. You do your job as well as you can, have stellar reviews, in fact you have the best reviews in the department. You have the most seniority, and the job you have been waiting for just has come open. However, you get passed over for it because they wanted someone who has six fingers on one hand and you only have 5 (random example, I know). You were born with 5 fingers, you couldn't help that, and you have worked your butt off. You feel entitled to that job, absolutely, and it isn't because you have 5 fingers but because you paid your dues, you got the peer assessments that you needed to, and there still wasn't a darn thing you could do but sit there and get passed over. That stinks. That isn't white people feeling entitled to me, that is students who have worked hard, who would die to go to Notre Dame, feeling like they got the short end of the stick. It may be fair, who knows, but I can tell you I felt the same way when I got rejected. Call me entitled, I felt the same way. I don't think that makes me racist, it is just in AA someone is not going to get their due. Perhaps we owe it to the minority, but don't we owe it to the non-minority non-legacy as well if we are accepting people with lower stats? I know you aren't going to like this, but that is how I see it.</p>
<p>I wish you the best and I am sorry to leave the debate. I just think it is getting too nasty. If you wish to respond to any of these points, shoot me a PM and perhaps we can come to an agreement, lol, who knows. As for now, I agree to disagree if you do as well.</p>
<p>whew! I'm exhausted reading all these posts. Definately shocked at some of the put downs and name calling and impressed with the true debates. It's nice to see a 5 page discussion on something other that admission stats.AA is an emotionally charged issue. WHen I read the 60 year olds comment I couldn't help but think about women's issues back in the day. Certainly ND wasn't open to women in the sixties and enigineering was hardly a field many women considered. College was a privelage and then usually it was to be a nurse teacher or to meet a husband.Hopefully we will continue to evolve and some day AA will be a thing of the past because we will all see ourselves as equal.....someday</p>
<p>you guys are all racist. each and every one of you. including myself. aa sucks. white people suck. we all suck. get over it. thread closed.</p>
<p>"you guys are all racist. each and every one of you. including myself. aa sucks. white people suck. we all suck. get over it. thread closed."</p>
<p>You, rohan, have issues...</p>
<p>What makes you think you had a place? White priviledge mentality? Life holds no guarantees...count your blessings.</p>
<p>ddjones007---seriously, CHILL OUT! It's called sarcasm, a satire of how the dialogue on this board truly reflects on human insecurities about how to approach racial lines. the boundary that separates equality/chance and reverse discrimination is ambiguous to all of us. This applies to anybody of every ethnicity, and the posts on this thread have shown that it's too hard to come to an agreement. It was bound to create controversy, which it did, and so now it's time to shut it down. There's no need to flip out, learn to appreciate a sense of humor.</p>
<p>Wow this thread has gotten nasty. I think at this point we should just agree to disagree</p>
<p>i just started reading this thread and haven't read it all but most of it, i would like to place my input... before adding my input i want to say that I am a white catholic from an upper middle class family... i am one of the least racist people you will find pretty much all my best friends are minorities (black, asian, and mexican) </p>
<p>i think we have to first define what makes kids "disadvantaged"... it is not their race that makes them disadvantaged so why should race have anything to do with the college selection process? Affirmative action simply by race, in my opinion, is discrimanation. i keep seeing people referring to our history as a reason for affirmative action--our history is done and we've learned from it. none of the african americans today have faced the horrors of slavery and i have not put anyone under the horrors of slavery so what is the need to "make up for it" with affirmative action</p>
<p>a disadvantaged child, in my opinion, grows up in a poor neighborhood and b/c of that receives an inferior education to middle and upper class children. if tax dollars were all pooled together by state and distributed equally to each school, then we would not have anyone who begins academically "disadvantaged" and there would be no need for affirmative action and then ND could accept entirely by merit which I think should be the case. </p>
<p>like many have said, what about the white child growing up in the ghetto? where is his advantage? people have said that they take in consideration one's socioeconomic background, but this doesn't even compare to the way they consider one's race. </p>
<p>i agree that those who are at a disadvantage deserve more opportunities so why not work to get rid of that disadvantage rather than trying to even it out by preferential treatment. people need to stop justifying affirmative action with our nations history. in this generation, our history is sad but over with--it should not be justification for a white getting rejected and a minority getting accepted with lower stats</p>
<p>lastly, for those of you who think this is about "white entitlement"... what about when blacks were discriminated against and couldn't receive the job they wanted that they worked so hard for? they got upset and they changed it, which it should have been changed, but isn't it a little hypocritical now to allow minorities to have a headstart when they were fighting for equality in the first place? in my opinion, MLK jr. would not want blacks to have a headstart he would want blacks to have the same opportunity to get into ND and to get in through hard work</p>
<p>one last point, for those of you who argue affirmative action is to make up for our nations history, then why aren't i involved in it? i am an irish catholic--a group who was greatly discriminated against by the KKK and the average white protestant in generaly. i am not reaping any benefits--affirmative action has good intentions, but i disagree strongly with the argument that it makes up for our nation's history</p>
<p>i really hope i didn't offend anyone, those are just my opinions... i'd like to hear what you guys have to say... like i said, my minority friends and i talk about this peacefully all the time so i hope this thread can stay peaceful!</p>
<p>Interesting discussion</p>
<p>I'm kinda curious about OP's stats as s/he says there is no way s/he couldn't have gotten in with his/her stats...</p>
<p>i am actually shocked i didn't get in, but I think it's totally wrong and inappropriate to "blame" it on a "minority taking my place"... this is the most competitive year EVER! I am honored to be 1 of just 500 on the waitlist.</p>
<p>but yeah, now that you mention it, what are your stats, takethecake?</p>
<p>I'm not taking any sides on the issue, but I just have a response for rohan.</p>
<p>I know you think you're comment was sarcastic, but this is a message board. That means all we can do is read text. If you can read sarcasm without hearing a voice, all the more power to you, but I, and many others cannot. I'd just say to watch what you type, because you may think you sound sarcastic, but it doesn't always come across that way when we can't hear the tone of your voice.
I'm a very sarcastic person myself, so when I type things I have to watch myself, because I know that my sarcasm doesn't come across through text. I just ask that you watch what you say.
I don't mean to sound rude or anything. This is just a polite request.</p>
<p>I'm sorry you didn't get in yet, jvon2432.</p>
<p>^ hey he still has a chance.... they said that they are probably taking off the waitlist</p>
<p>He still has hope</p>
<p>To make it clear, I'm not offended in any way for what's being said in this debate. So if you are as smart as you all claim to be, I hope you can infer from this first sentence that I'm a minority and that I'm a current student at Notre Dame. </p>
<p>The reason I'm posting this message is that I think it's ridiculous to say you were not admitted here becuase Notre Dame decided to give me a place instead of you. The fact that you might have a perfect SAT score or a 4.0 G.P.A. doesn't guarantee you a place here in Notre Dame. Neither did I. I believe that what's important when it comes to admissions is what you have to offer. And no, you don't have to be a certain skin color. But diversity matters. And no, you don't have to be from a different country to be diverse, there's enough diversity in everyone's background, education, religion and customs.</p>
<p>Finally, I cannot believe how anyone can say minorities are taking white poeple's places here at Notre Dame. There's not a big minority presence here. So, even if this happens to be true, at least you're member of a certain type of minority! </p>
<p>And, for your information, last week my history professor, who happens to have graduated from Duke and is the current head of the history department, told me it was a pleasure to have me in her class since I had demonstrated her that my english was the best in the class. And yes, I was the only minority in the class and yes, I got an A.</p>
<p>Thanks for the lesson on what sarcasm is rohan... I am, as always, amazed by your shining brilliance... Golly, I used some myself! Darn, I'm a quick study...</p>
<p>Seriously, rohan, sarcasm is no excuse for just being plain rude, particularly when make comments as inappropriate as the ones you made in an already heated debate.</p>
<p>There is intelligence. There is wisdom. There is a difference.</p>