MIT Admissions Dean warns About College Entrance Stress

Parents Forum
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<p>marite</p>

<p>I'm glad to hear what you say about AP Calc. My S is taking it, though he doesn't love math and the teacher is useless, because he tought he had to for colleges, but he absolutely refused to take AP Bio, even though the teacher is excellent, because it involves tons of work and he has no interest in Bio. He opted for Advanced Topics in Physics and Chemistry instead. I'm hoping it wil sound rigorous enough for ad coms.</p>

<p>And in talking with friends who have kids recently accepted to excellent schools, the kids did not take every AP offered by the school, just some. But the colleges could be more clear about this. Back to the OP topic, how clear is MIT about this?</p>

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<p>Remembering back to third grade, my son actually had to write a research paper. It was actually a great assignment and not nearly as onerous as it sounds as it was staged over an 8 week period. The topic was cold desserts. He had to include three locations, three animals, three plants, three illustrations and a bibiliograhy. I was kind of sorry that the NYS testing that got instituted between kids meant that my younger son spent most of third grade writing short essays comparing two stories.</p>

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<p>Cold desserts?</p>

<p>He got to write a paper on ice cream?</p>

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<p>"Cold desserts?"</p>

<p>Darn it! </p>

<p>Usually I do my little mantra, "Desserts is stressed spelled backwards."</p>

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<p>"Back to the OP topic, how clear is MIT about this?"</p>

<p>I don't know about MIT, but when I went to the presentation by Ivy League admissions officers at our high school's College Night they all said they weren't interested in seeing all APs. They were interested in seeing APs in the subjects you were interested in. They said two or three per year was plenty. Now it's possible they were talking out of both sides of their mouths, but that is what they claimed. :)</p>

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<p>From the MIT webpage: "Overall, you should try to take the most stimulating courses available to you. If your high school doesn't offer courses that challenge you, you may want to explore other options, such as local college extension or summer programs."</p>

<p>So just stressing by taking a lot of AP's may not be enough. Kids may need to enroll in a local college just to get enough advanced coursework. Dean Jones may speak about de-stressing the college acceptance process but that may not translate into any real improvements.</p>

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<p>If my son's schools really only wanted to see APs in his areas of interest, I wish they'd have said it. I'm sure he'd have chosen a different AP than Calc for senior year (also taking AP Gov and loves every minute of it).</p>

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<p>Contradicting all I have said here :), I do think that there is more play in what's considered "rigorous" enough than we sometimes think. My S opted out of a fourth year of language for reasons not important to the conversation. I really worried about this, and when I asked the GC if he'd still be considered as "most rigorous" she was non-commital. I do think, in the end, she pulled out all the stops for him, and he was accepted to Columbia. So, agreeing with Marite, you maybe don't have to take everything offered. But, would it have gone differently if the GC had perceived a lack of rigor for this decision?</p>

<p>I also really liked the fact that Columbia does not ask for AP scores on its application. From this I assumed that this is not important to them, and they only use them post-acceptance, for credit and placement, the way they are supposed to be.</p>

<p>There's a column in the NYTimes today,
<a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/21/opinion/21labrecque.html?_r=1&oref=slogin%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/21/opinion/21labrecque.html?_r=1&oref=slogin&lt;/a>,
in which a prep school leader makes the same point:</p>

<p>
[quote]
We are pondering issuing a call, in light of the Harvard and Princeton announcements, for an embargo on the reporting of Advanced Placement scores until students have matriculated. Reporting scores at that time would level the playing field ever so slightly for students who do not have access to the Advanced Placement program. And freed from the pressure to report scores for admission, skilled teachers would be able to develop intellectual acuity in ways tailored to the students they teach.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I think this would be a good step in the right direction.</p>

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<p>Regarding GFG's post #428, AP Credits can earn "acceleration" at college (the option of a semester-early graduation). My D was offered that decision in her freshman year last yr. at an Ivy, toyed with it, decided against it. Also some of her distribution requirements were waived, though again, she chose to increase her options rather than decrease them in that subject area. She was one of those students that took as many high school AP's in areas of personal interest that she could handle, because she enjoyed the challenge & those classes contained more of her true intellectual peers, whereas other classes did not.</p>

<p>Regarding symphonymom's comment about privates & certain publics being similar in intensity, she's right. In fact, the kind of "AP-abuse," shall we say happens in our area more prevalently at publics than rigorous privates. I think that's a combination of a couple of things: greater disparity between AP's & non-AP's at some publics, and less oversight (because of the size of school & size of staff) with AP permission. At smaller schools a GC or an Academic Dean often has a more ongoing & more intimate knowledge of courseload & individual student ability, & will put a limit on # of courses. It is quite common in large high-rent publics for students to be taking "all" AP's both Jr. & Sr. year. Personally, I think that's insane. </p>

<p>Which brings me to a recent comment of mathmom's. Where I first saw the push for AP's, it came from the high schools embodied by student bodies with very aggressive parents, not as a push from the colleges. I won't go further than that, so as not to flame, but I actually (for a change) do believe the college reps when they say that 2 or 3 is the expectation. However, when they see students with 10, undoubtedly that elevates the admission standard.</p>

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<p>Mathmom said,
[quote]
They were interested in seeing APs in the subjects you were interested in. They said two or three per year was plenty. Now it's possible they were talking out of both sides of their mouths, but that is what they claimed.

[/quote]

I do think that this is true, or at least it was for S1. He never took Honors English in HS -- stuck to the track between CP and Honors. He's actually a very good writer and his highest SAT I score was verbal, but it's not his interest area. He did take AP Bio, AP Chem, AP Physics and AP Calc BC and did very well in the classes and on the AP test.</p>

<p>He also did the AP for his foreign language, which means that he doesn't have to study it any more in college.</p>

<p>I just wish S2 hadn't gotten on the Honors English track -- it's hard to convince him to back down. I really think that most kids excel -- or just enjoy more -- a particular path, either humanities or math/science. I think both of my kids had to make a choice: hum or math, music or sports. They do actually need to sleep sometimes!</p>

<p>By the way, S1 drove with his permit for a year before we allowed him to get his license, right before senior year. S2 is on the same path. I also never allowed either to drive TO school -- they aren't morning people, and I value my life! ;)</p>

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<ol>
<li>diversity and tolerance</li>
<li>disability awareness</li>
<li>bully-proofing and conflict resolution ("I messages)</li>
<li>stranger danger, internet safety, physical privacy and related topics</li>
<li>drug and acohol education/peer pressure/refusal skills</li>
<li>self-esteem development</li>
<li>minority-specific social issues</li>
<li>the every-changing food pyramid and healthy eating</li>
<li>recycling</li>
<li>conservation/ecology--S learned about whales every year, but now I think they're into lizards and Darwinian creatures of the Galapagos Isands.</li>
</ol>

<p>GFG: sounds like my kids' elementary school to the letter! Which is why I pulled D out, although I forced poor S to go through the 5th grade, when it mercifully ended, because I thought he would benefit from the social interaction. As for the argument of many that some of these topics MUST be taught because otherwise some kids would not be exposed to them in their worthless homes, that argument does not wash with me. The more you do for people, the less they do for themselves. If schools take it upon themselves to teach character, manners, tolerance, awareness, whatever, what on earth is left for parents to do? We will be obsolete. Except that we have to spend the evening teaching math facts and how to read non-fiction because those topics have been squeezed out of the school day to make room for socialization. Off-topic! Sorry.</p>

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<p>GFG: Agree 100% with your frustration over nonsense state-mandated NJ curriculum. And like you, I consider DARE a harmful addition to the schools. (Did your kids get the coloring book with the pedophile on the park bench?) You can't make this stuff up! But speak up at a PTO or BOE meeting and you are shouted down as an "ostrich" with you head in the sand. Only a DARE officer is qualified to understand my kids and relate to them and determine whether or not they are sniffing glue or popping pills, it seems. And this must take place during school hours, of course, displacing math class. </p>

<p>I think the 3rd grade homework you describe is excessive. My 5th grade son couldn't complete that assignment in 15 minutes.</p>

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<p>Well said, midmo. And the more schools take over parental teaching responsbilities, the more conflicts arise over the approach to take. You cannot teach many of these topics properly without instilling a value system. Your values are not likely to be the same as mine. Other than insisting on kindness and respect, the schools should back off & let the parents parent. Punishing a bully is much more effective than dragging the whole darn school in for an assembly about bullying.</p>

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<p>"...believe the college reps when they say that 2 or 3 is the expectation. However, when they see students with 10, undoubtedly that elevates the admission standard'</p>

<p>Epiphany, I don't think it necessarily would raise admission standards. I expect that when colleges see the nature of my son's diverse public high school, they will come to the correct conclusion that it was AP or nothing for high ability students in core subjects. When they look at transcripts from schools with fewer challenges, with respect to satisfying diverse curricular demands, they will come to different conclusions about how students chose their classes.</p>

<p>My S spent the 4 years of middle and junior high at a small fledgling independent school that did no tracking, except for some small differences in math. When S and many of his friends jumped ship and returned to public high school (for long involved reasons specific to that school), some chose to place their kids in non-AP English because it wasn't their strong suit. Without exception, those parents and students regretted that decision. What a waste of time. As another anecdote, my S has a good friend who moved here from a central European country a few years ago. He took regular track English because he figured that sounded like the wisest move. No, it wasn't. He was the best student in the class, and he too moved on to AP. </p>

<p>You have to live it to know it.</p>

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<p>edad:</p>

<p>Unfortunately, the college websites sections on high school preparation mix up a description of expectations and advice on how to construct a high school curriculum that is challending. In many parts of the country, APs are not offered by schools. What to do in such cases? The college websites suggest looking into community colleges as a possibility--not a requirement. But this suggestion is not clearly explained; so parents may feel that their children <em>should</em> take community college classes in order to stay competitive. I don't think that was the colleges' intention to make them feel that way.
The Harvard Extension School acts as the community college for many schools in the Boston-Cambridge area. This is probably why our school does not offer that many APs (14 altogether, including a couple of semester-long ones). Students who have maxed out of advanced classes in a subject can take classes at the Extension School. This happens a lot in math/sciences . If a student wants to study a language that is not offered at the school, that student is also allowed to take classes in that language at the Extension School. I think that is the sort of thing the college websites are suggesting students look into.</p>

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<p>Our large average suburban school district (in the mid-Atlantic region) does not offer as much acceleration in math as many other schools (such as many of the ones discussed on this thread). The highest level math class is Calculus AB and Computer Science A is also offered (although the teacher does not know the material, so it is mostly self-taught). It does not offer AP Chem, although it does offer both Mechanics and E/M AP Physics C and AP Bio (neither of my kids took AP Bio). APs in English (2 years), US and European History, US Government, Psychology, and Environmental Science are also offered. There are none in foreign languages. </p>

<p>My son, who is talented in math and science, was admitted to four of the HYPMS schools, with Calculus AB as his highest math course. He had nine APs altogether, very high test scores (including 5s on all APs taken before senior year), attended summer enrichment programs (CTY for two years and Governor's School), ranked first in his class, and had a bunch of ECs including sports, but did not have any world class achievements or talents. He attended Stanford, and at Stanford, a 5 on the Calculus AB exam gave the same placement as a 4 or 5 on the Calculus BC exam - into Linear Algebra - so he was not "behind" by only having the Calc. AB.</p>

<p>My daughter is not math/science oriented, and has a wide variety of talents, activities, and interests, but, again, has no "high level" awards or achievements or spectacular talents. Her highest math course was Honors Calculus - she was in the "Honors" math sequence but not in the "super high Honors" math sequence which is one section for the most talented math students, and she was not recommended for AP Calculus. She had 6 AP courses (in English (2), US and European History, US Politics, and Psychology) and additionally did an independent study of AP Art History under the supervision of a teacher. This came about because they share an interest in Art History, and was totally outside of anything officially having to do with the school (it was not on her transcript). She agonized as to whether to take the AP Bio (to look better on her transcript), as many of her peers near the top of the class did, but decided to take the less time- consuming AP Psychology as her fifth academic class as a senior, so as to have time for the independent study as well as all of her activities - music, art, school clubs, etc. She had a total SAT in the high 1300's, with a math score in the mid-600's, and a higher verbal score, and graduated in the top 2% of her class (11 of about 750). Her AP scores were one 3, five 4's, and one 5. She was admited Early Decision with a substantial Merit Scholarship to an excellent (~top 30) LAC. In retrospect, ED was not a good idea for her (I think it was partially my fault as I was unnecessarily worried that she needed the extra boost of ED). Her grades were excellent as a freshman and she loved the academics, but she was not happy at the school for a variety of reasons. She was accepted as a transfer to one of the most highly ranked LACs, where she is now a sophomore. </p>

<p>I may have included too much detail here, but my point is that students can be admitted to the most selective colleges without taking the excessive schedules described by some parents in this post. And, in the case of my daughter, she did not take APs in the subjects which were not of interest to her (math and science). Both of my kids worked very hard in high school and took advantage of opportunities within their school as well as on their own, beyond what their school offered. But their transcripts were not nearly as accelerated as the ones decribed by GFG, Symphonymom, and others, and they did fine.</p>

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<p>GFG's and SS's litany of elementary "coursework" is echoed in our region. PC to the max -- at publics anyway. And taxpayers wonder where their money goes. The "alternative" (social) courses would be easier to swallow if learning in the basics were happening at our publics, but it isn't happening, that's the point.</p>

<p>edad and others, I've wondered privately what you said publicly on the previous page, I think: Are these greater entrance requirements (from MIT), or different ones? I do think the point is that MIT's goal is to make them different, not more. And for some hope on the horizon, maybe? In the most recent admissions cycle at one of the very intense peer high schools (public) named on this thread, not a single senior was admitted to an Ivy (or to MIT,I believe). Students (and their very pushy parents) were shocked. Students took max AP's, stuffed their academic programs to overflow, & assumed that the elites woud be impressed. These students are mostly enrolling in the flagship publics (which do award for quantity).</p>

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<p>Midmo:</p>

<p>Well, the families of the many kids who taunted the first grader must have done a wonderful job instilling values in their kids.--NOT. I wonder where these first and second graders picked up their homophobia. Could it be their own homes? Perish the thought! So should the teacher have let them driving the poor kid to tears because schools should not take over the job of parents? I consider the day spent on diversity/tolerance that took the place of the 3Rs very well spent. The kids did stop taunting the girl. </p>

<p>I used to read email after email about bullies on the playground from outraged parents saying where are the teachers, and why don't they stop it, and so on and so forth. I hope none of the outraged parents had kids who were involved in the bullying. Parents, too, can talk from both sides of their mouths.</p>

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<p>midmo,
With regard to your reply to my comments on 2-3 vs. 10 AP's becoming a de facto admission standard,
I agree that colleges may understand the disparities within one school & among different varieties of schools, although I would not necessarily count on their having a lot of time to investigate differences that are not obvious. But I still think that sidesteps the question of their being in general a larger average # of AP's taken across the board. Like xiggi, I don't think AP's should be, in themselves, a determinant for college admission -- without confirmation of what the course involved (other than prepping for an exam), what was expected of the student, what the student produced, etc. It should be about how the student excelled qualitatively in that environment, given what the environment had to offer.</p>

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<p>Marite: I'd vote for punishing the bully. Very simple. If kids see there is a consequence for their actions, they'll adjust in a hurry. I would not want a teacher discussing anything about being gay or straight or coming out or getting divorced with my kids in the first grade!</p>