<p>Marite, there was a day not so long ago, that bullies were sent home immediately, greatly inconveniencing bully's parents, but not wasting the school day for everyone else, including the victim. Parents learned a lesson, bully learned a lesson, and teacher was free to teach math and English. There are various ways to deal with problems; the challenge is to find the best one.</p>
<p>When my S was in third grade, a bully punched him in the nose at recess. The solution? S and the bully got to each lunch together in the counselor's office for a week or two so they could work out "their" problems. I was told the reasoning was that bully would discover that S was another human being, too, even though he didn't know anything about pro sports. Of course, I didn't know about this until it was over because my son is not a complainer. Sorry, Marite, I think most of the current approach to socialization is a crock.</p>
<p>Anyone out there want to suggest a great school that provides a terrific education in an environment that is user friendly? I'm just curious whether there are such places...where there is focus on providing excellent classes appropriate for growing adolescents....Preferably, somewhere down to earth with parents who are not busy helicoptering around their kids...ones with their own lives. I don't know of one (we're established I live in an odd area which has mushroomed around me..it used to be full of apricot orchards...now the groundwater is contaminated thanks to the semiconductor industry).</p>
<p>epiphany, no argument with that. My S's gc tells me they fill out a detailed school profile that gives a picture of the economic status of the student body. Does anyone read it? DK</p>
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I used to read email after email about bullies on the playground from outraged parents saying where are the teachers, and why don't they stop it, and so on and so forth.
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<p>The teachers aren't on the playground at recess because that's when the teachers eat lunch. Other people are supervising the playground, and they may not even know the students' names. This is unfortunate, but how can it be changed? The teachers have to have a lunch break.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, it's not the teacher who discussed divorce or being gay or straight. It's the kids (multiple). They must have heard about the girl's parents divorcing from their own. The poor girl did not even know the meaning of "divorce." It was the kids who insisted (correctly) that her parents were divorcing and it was a bad thing. Then they found out, again throught he parental grapevine, that her dad had come out, and taunted her with it. </p>
<p>Now, how did they learn all that? And why did they think it was a good reason to taunt a seven year old? I lay the blame at the parents' door on this one. Sorry, but parents sometimes are the problem.</p>
<p>You're right. But I was trying to suggest that parents have to share responsibility for raising bullies and unleashing them on the school's playground.</p>
<p>Midmo: Punching a kid in the nose is different from taunting a seven year old over her parents' divorce and sexual identity.</p>
<p>I think I live in such a place for the most part, but it's not perfect and I'm not sure you or someone else would call the education terrific. I'm not sure you can have what some of you think of rigorous--I would say nightmarish--and also have a relaxed, emotionally healthy environment with time for sleep.</p>
<p>Marite</p>
<p>I'm with you on the bullying stuff. One local school had a suicide and our legislature mandated curriculum on bullying. I think it's helped. Our elementary and middle school follow a Responsive Classroom program that all staff is trained in. Most of it is interwoven into the regular school day. More about respect and how people treat each other.</p>
<p>“If a kid is interested in math or science, I think he or she is at a serious disadvantage without AP Calculus BC and AP Physics/Chemistry.”</p>
<p>This is probably true, but I have a BIG problem with this. There must be hundreds of high schools out there that don’t offer those courses for a variety of reasons. Our HS has 100 kids/grade, maybe 20 per year take a challenging curriculum and I would guess no more than 5 per year would be able to handle Calc BC and AP Physics and Chemistry. We don’t have the budget to offer these classes, so it's a moot point. And most parents here are not savvy enough or have kids who are motivated enough or have enough money to do what is necessary to have their kids take these classes. Are you saying that kids from these communities are doomed before they even get to college? That says to me that colleges are not serving their clientele well. Here we have Harvard et al saying that they need to get more lower-income students, and colleges saying they want geographic diversity – well, those high-level courses sure aren’t going to be offered in many of those communities. Are we setting them up for failure? </p>
<p>GFG: In third grade, my daughter got no homework. Well, maybe an hour every other week. Seriously. That’s when I thought her education was dreadful and I envied those wonderful schools in the Boston and NYC suburbs. As I said, I’ve changed my mind.</p>
<p>Marite: But it doesn't matter if the offense was "different". The solution is the same: make the bullies' parents pay the price, not every kid in the class (and by extension, all the other parents).</p>
<p>On topic: there is an op-ed piece in today's NYTimes about using AP for college admissions.</p>
<p>edad...excellent points...is MIT replacing its admission criteria with something else...or just adding something on top of everything else? You have to have APs, scores, ecs, AND innovative and strong personalities. Whew. Send me Bill Gates, with a teaspoon of Steve Jobs and a pinch of Sergey Brin. It's amusing that none of those folks would have taken a hundred AP courses in order to get into MIT.</p>
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I consider the day spent on diversity/tolerance that took the place of the 3Rs very well spent.
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<p>Well, it appears that those topics must have been discussed by the teachers. That is not their role. I know there are many kooky & nasty parents who pass on those traits to their kids. Let me deal with how my kids are taught to react to them, please.</p>
<p>I think if you punish bulllies, the frequency of bullying decreases. If there is some sort of crisis or situation that has spiraled out of control, then notify the parents & let them handle it at home as they see fit. Much like a notice about a head lice epidemic, a notice about your situation could have been sent home. "You sould be aware that there has been some hurtful taunting and developmentally inappropriate discusssion of homosexuality swirling around at recess. You may wish to discuss this with your child. The children responsible have been punished and will be suspended if their behavior continues." Now on to the three Rs.....</p>
<p>Re: kooky parents -- At an 11 year old girl's birthday/slumber party, a mom in our town allowed Texas Chainsaw Massacre to be viewed. So I know they are out there. I avoid them like the plague.</p>
<p>I'll take less rigorous, bethievt...I don't think rigor and excellence go hand in hand. I'm interested in where you live (PM me if you prefer). I'm really genuinely interested in places that put the needs of the child first (not just say they do and slam them with hours of homework).</p>
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Marite: But it doesn't matter if the offense was "different". The solution is the same: make the bullies' parents pay the price, not every kid in the class (and by extension, all the other parents).
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<p>By sending the kids home so that the parents can instill more of their bigoted ideas, probably sharpened by having to take care of junior?</p>
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Let me deal with how my kids are taught to react to them, please.
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<p>You had a seven-year old being taunted by a whole group of kids. Her parents going through a very difficult time themselves; and the girl was very fragile emotionally. She was in no position to defend herself. She did not even know what was going on, what the meaning of divorce was, let along gay. I know all that because my S, same age, had no idea what it meant. He came home still in a fog about the meaning of gay but knowing that the take-home message (and it literally was a message to take home) was that he should respect differences. I hope the bullies took home the same message to their parents. At least, they stopped taunting the girl and she could go on with her learning. So what if my S missed out on one day's of learning if it helped that girl?</p>
<p>Apologies from the digression. Back to topic now.</p>
<p>"One local school had a suicide and our legislature mandated curriculum on bullying."</p>
<p>Substitute these words after "our school had":</p>
<p>--a lot of really fat kids, so our legislature mandated curriculum...
--a lot of kids whose parents drink too much alcohol, so...
--a lot of kids who watch R-rated movies as youngsters so...
--a lot of kids whose parents use bad language, so...
--a lot of kids who engage in sexual activity by junior high, so...
--a lot of kids who parents vote for the party not currently in power, so...</p>
<p>Okay, the last one was facetious, but all the other problems are real in this town. But there are only so many hours in the school day, and being poorly educated is the most important underlying factor in much of the anti-social behavior that makes school such a drag for so many kids. I say solve the underlying problem first.</p>
<p>Sorry, marite. But giving a lesson on respecting differences will not change anyone's behavior if it is not coupled with punishment for those who don't. Especially if these kids come from homes where bigotry is part of the family culture. </p>
<p>Did your son need the lesson? I'm sure you had been teaching it (and leading by example) since his birth. The fragile girl was no doubt MORTIFIED that she was the subject of this day-long event. I fail to see how this is the best solution.</p>
<p>My kid did not need the lesson, so for him it was a waste of time. But lots of kids did need the lesson, because they had done the bulllying. The girl was in no way mortified. I believe that she was glad the session was held, and she was in fact reassured that a lot in her life would stay the same (her parents would still be her parents, etc..) And, as I said, the kids stopped taunting her. Our school turned out to have a fair number of kids with same sex parents, and we never heard afterward of kids being taunted over this issue. </p>
<p>Schools are far more affected by mandated testing--which is not their fault. When 10th grade MCAS are held, all other grades are affected as well because classes have to be re-configured, teachers are needed to proctor, etc... and the MCAS last a whole week. Ditto for APs which last two weeks. In K-8, there are MCAS in practically every grade and in an ever expanding number of subjects; and they are not the only tests kids must take. None of those are the schools' choice.</p>
<p>Education in the U.S. is diverse in every way. There doesn't seem to be a standard curriculum -- the closest would be AP or IB -- and kids really do not have the same opportunities. It is a noble goal to open the most selective colleges to kids who are bright enough, but may not have had the same educational opportunities as kids from more savvy environments. It is the right thing to do. But I am a little concerned for those kids who are not prepared for the rigor of such colleges.</p>
<p>Marite, I'm with you regarding the seven year old who was being harassed. Some life lessons are too important to sweep under the rug. I was appalled when S1 came home from 1st grade and asked me what "gay" meant. Not what I consider appropriate playground chat.</p>
<p>Forcing teachers to limit their teaching to the 3Rs denies them a chance to take advantage of teachable moments. And in stressful situations, addressing the issue that causes the stress might help to get the kids back into a state where teaching of the 3Rs would be effective.</p>
<p>When my son was in first grade, the mother of one of the first graders used to bring her younger, obviously mentally retarded child with her when picking up her daughter (which is perfectly acceptable, of course, and was something the mom could not have avoided even if she had wanted to). Many of the kids were frightened by the disabled child. Some teased the normal sister. The mom made a point of talking with the kids and parents whom she knew, but she recognized that kids she didn't know were also upset. She asked the school whether she or someone else could visit the first grade classrooms to explain a little bit about disabilities. The answer was no, because "we can't waste class time teaching disabilities awareness in first grade since that topic will be covered in the third grade curriculum." A teachable moment was missed.</p>
<p>Even worse example: when my kids were in elementary school, a horrible automobile accident in which two high school girls were killed occurred directly across the street from the elementary school playground. For weeks thereafter, teenagers hung around the site, crying, reminiscing, and leaving flowers and other mementos behind. (The site was on private property, the owners of which decided to permit these activities, so the elementary school could not prevent this from happening.) The kids saw all of this activity from the playground at recess. In addition, one of the teenage victims was buried from a funeral home located on the other side of the school. It was one of the biggest funerals the town had ever seen, far exceeding the capacity of the building. On the day of the service, which occurred during school hours, hundreds of weeping teenagers congregated outside the funeral home building, on the street, within easy view of many of the elementary school classrooms and the parking lot.</p>
<p>Every kid in that elementary school knew that something was wrong. Some knew what had happened; others were bewildered. All were upset. Strange rumors flew. For years afterward, kids avoided the side of the playground nearest to the accident site on the grounds that it was haunted by the spirits of the dead girls. If forced to go into that area (for example, as part of an organized game in gym class), some would vomit. </p>
<p>The teachers never mentioned anything about the situation because it was "not in the curriculum." Somehow, I don't think this was the best way to deal with things.</p>
<p>Someone stated, If a kid is interested in math or science, I think he or she is at a serious disadvantage without AP Calculus BC and AP Physics/Chemistry.</p>
<p>This is just a silly statement. In fact just the opposite may be true. A student who has not taken these HS courses will have to take them in college instead where the material may be more challenging, the instruction better and the laboratory work both more challenging and better. While not taking these courses in hs may put the student a few subjects "behind", his competencies in these base subject may in fact end up being much better. In fact, some AP courses are so poorly taught that it is advisable for some students to retake the courses as a college freshman.</p>
<p>In addition, the student will be a year or two older and the resulting maturity may work to his benefit as well.</p>
<p>I am not suggesting holding a good student back in hs. Not at all! I am merely challenging the assumption that AP courses are the end all and be all for college bound students.</p>
<p>I've been told by parents of several science-major kids that there were no courses at kids' colleges elementary enough to not pose huge catch-up difficulty in chemistry and physics because we don't have AP.</p>