<p>cangel -- so, this being a thread regarding "morality" -- are you suggesting that coed bathrooms are immoral? Really?</p>
<p>I also note emphasis on sex and drugs to define "morality" -- and I agree with Tarhunt that focussing on private and/or consensual behavior limits the discussion. Some parents have noted that community service seems to be on the upswing (encouraging!). Political activism, of course, hasn't yet reached critical mass, but I'm optimistic.</p>
<p>D's college borrowed an honor principle from Hollywood -- be excellent to each other. Any better suggestions?</p>
<p>We all should look back 20-30+ years and consider how we conducted ourselves in the college environment. I suspect that few of us were virgin tea tottlers. I know I wasn't! Yes, I had a few binge drinking episodes that I am not particularly proud of but I did limit it to just a few times(2 or 3 if memory serves me). And any relationships with gf's was far from being platonic, but was restricted to those I considered gf's.</p>
<p>Hopefully the OP would not have considered my conduct shockingly immoral. I know I do not consider it such with our son.</p>
<p>Realistically, I know that there will be alcohol, drugs, sexual behavior, etc. at any of the schools my son will attend. Back in my day, dorms were just going co-ed, birth control pills were readily available and the drinking age was 18 in some states. I certainly experimented and did some dumb things, but I never lost respect for myself or for other people. Knowing my son as I do, I expect he'll experiment, but I know he'll be respectful of himself and others. Maybe that means different things to different people.</p>
<p>No Celloguy, I don't think coed bathrooms are "immoral" - behavior is or is not immoral, not bathrooms. I think they are stupid.
At Yale at least, they seem to be there because it is too expensive (I suspect) to have coed freshman floors otherwise - and being coed by room, if not by bed, is a social experiment at Yale. A few recent and current Yalies I have talked to were not too thrilled over those arrangements - tolerant, but not thrilled.</p>
<p>Personally, I have always thought co-ed by floors or wings was about as co-ed as I was interested in for myself. USC seems to be similar, with single-sex bathrooms, which to me seems a lot easier for everyone. They do have some dorms with suites with their own bathrooms that are co-ed by suite, with both genders on the same floor.
Never appealed to me to see or be seen by other sex while in the bathroom.</p>
<p>And that HiMom, is how I think most of the kids feel. It is a little different when they are seniors or juniors and a group of friends of both sexes elect to share space. It is different if there are single sex bathrooms, even on mixed floors.</p>
<p>"We all should look back 20-30+ years and consider how we conducted ourselves in the college environment. I suspect that few of us were virgin tea tottlers. I know I wasn't! Yes, I had a few binge drinking episodes that I am not particularly proud of but I did limit it to just a few times(2 or 3 if memory serves me). And any relationships with gf's was far from being platonic, but was restricted to those I considered gf's.</p>
<p>Hopefully the OP would not have considered my conduct shockingly immoral. I know I do not consider it such with our son."</p>
<p>I do not consider this shockingly immoral. It's the casual sex devoid of any meaning towards the partner that I find shocking (and extremely selfish)! I truly think this has gotten much worse than in our day (I graduated in 1986), and people are so brazen about it.</p>
<p>To set the record straight, I got a PM from someone with a freshman at Yale, her child does have single sex accomodations as a freshman. Maybe they have changed the policy, because that was not what we were led to believe a couple of years ago. Mea culpa.</p>
<p>
[quote]
However, using others as a chattel (for sexual pleasure only) ranks up there in the immorality scale.
[/quote]
Curiousmother, you are entitled to your opinion, but assuming that appropriate precautions are taken against spread of STDs and unwanted pregnancy, I have never seen anything "morally" wrong with two consenting adults having sexual relations with and without emotional committment, as long as both have the same viewpoint. Whether I choose to participate or not is a different matter.</p>
<p>Again -- you certainly have a right to your opinion, and to any religious views that guide them. But your view of "morality" is not the same as all others. Extramarital sex of any sort between consenting adults is not a crime, and I would expect my now-grown children to make choices that show respect and concern for their partners.... but other than that, the choices are up to them. </p>
<p>I don't know whether you are expressing your views or your daughter's. Brown -- or just about any large secular college (and many large religiously-affiliated colleges) - are places where tolerance is expected, and no one will win any friends passing moral judgment on others over issues of lifestyle. If your daughter would prefer a more conservative campus environment, I would suggest that she focus the search on small, religiously-affiliated colleges with clear rules and expectations for student behavior.</p>
<p>I, for one, hate the idea of coed bathrooms. Anyone wanting a well written, graphic description of the goings on in one of them should read Tom Wolfe's novel about a bright, young girl's initiation to college life.</p>
<p>I'd also note that my daughter's all-women dorm at Barnard has co-ed bathrooms on every floor.... as well as single-sex bathrooms. As far as I know, the type (coed vs. single-sex) is clearly marked. This is simply to accommodate visitors -- there are not enough men there regularly to justify reserving bathrooms for exclusive male use, but when the male visitors are there, they do need to have a place to go. I assume my daughter probably uses whichever bathroom is closest to her room; knowing her, I doubt that she cares whether there are men in there or not. (It has nothing to do with sex or morality; probably a lot more to do with the fact that she grew up in a household where she shared a bathroom with her brother.)</p>
<p>calmother- I think the key is "USING others". To me, this does not infer that the partners are on the same wavelength regarding the relationship. I agree that if two adults want to "hook-up" (as they now say) without any emotional attachment, there is nothing immoral. The problem is when one partner lies or misrepresents feelings in order to secure the hook-up. (side note- I have a VERY platonic business friend who insists on trying to "hook up" when he comes to town. By this he means have lunch or coffee.....)</p>
<p>We grew up sharing bathrooms with our folks & there were boys & girls going in & out of all the bathrooms. Still was glad we did not have a co-ed bathroom where folks go to shower & do their "toilette."</p>
<p>MoWC, I have always had many male friends & enjoy keeping/catching up with them. Never used the phrase "Hooking up" with them, but have not had problems keeping in touch. A few have very jealous spouses who have decided to have them end all contact with females including me, which I don't understand but respect. To me, it's all about people having common expectations & understandings. I personally believe sex is a lot more emotionally laden (especially for females) that people expect or realize, which can cause a lot of pain than expected.</p>
<p>As for consenting adults having casual sex, though 18 is legally an adult, this can be an explosive thing. Most break downs I have known that occur at college involve emotions going haywire during sexual relationships. Who of us have not known someone emotionally devastated by one of these things going wrong? The college years are also peak years for all kinds of mood disorders, neuroses and psychoses erupting. Throwing casual sex into the mix of some kids whose hormones and emotions are in a state of turmoil is really an explosive situation. Without even going into the morality of casual sex,which is a very personal matter, students should be advised of how dangerous his can be. You can hurt someone very badly, and so be hurt yourself, so powerful this is. There are those out there on the brink of breakdown, and this can not only push them over, but in a big, dangerous way. Respect, courtesy, awareness are all important when getting involved in sex. True, for many, the psychoses is bound to come out if it's in those genes, but how it manifests itself can make a difference in fallout to all around them. Sex is an area I would discourage college bound students from jumping in with all cares abandoned. For even the most permissive folks, I would advise caution and awareness of the hurt and damage that can occur in the powerful emotions that can arise in such situations.</p>
<p>I went to UCLA, which is neither a "party school" nor a "social wasteland."</p>
<p>There were parties. Drugs. Sex. </p>
<p>But you know what? I participated in none of it. This isn't to say that I spent all four years of college never consuming alcohol or having sex, but I never drank only to get drunk and I only had one monogamous relationship throughout school. </p>
<p>And I wasn't rare. Most of the people I met were not libertines, looking for the next bottle or partner. And I think that this can be said of most schools, despite the lamenting otherwise. If you look for trouble, it will find you. If you avoid it, it will avoid you. </p>
<p>I don't get why this is any different from everyday life? I know plenty of people who get wasted at bars or clubs that never needed to go to college to do so.</p>
<p>Co-ed bathrooms should really be a non-issue. Most of the bathrooms people use in the world are co-ed. I'm sure it's difficult for a few weeks if a kid has had his or her own bathroom at home and suddenly has to share with strangers, and doubly difficult if the kid is modest and some of the strangers are of the opposite sex. But that is something that human beings can get used to.</p>
<p>As far as I can tell, there is no more casual, meaningless sex now than there was in the early '80s. Maybe less of it. And a lot less of it compared to the late 18th Century (if you believe de Laclos, Casanova, and da Ponte). One of the other things that has not changed much (as far as I can tell, etc.), is that young men and women both talk much more cavalierly about sex than they feel or behave. That creates misunderstanding sometimes, and heartbreak, but it was ever so.</p>
<p>One thing has changed: You-know-what is now part of what used to be called "heavy petting", as opposed to what used to be called "something only prostitutes and very committed, adventuresome girlfriends would do". In other words, an activity which used to carry a great freight of meaning doesn't anymore. But I don't think that's a fundamental change in morality; rather, it's a minor shift of the semiotic sands.</p>
<p>I agree with a lot of the previous posters. I do not see drug/alcohol use or consensual, casual sex as immoral. Students at Brown will see these things as commonplace. Many choose not to participate in one or all of these activities, but few will condemn them. As someone stated early on, if your daughter makes it clear that she believes people who do these things are immoral, she will find herself alienated from many of her peers. If she absolutely can't deal with casual sex or substance use, she should look into schools with strict codes of conduct (Wheaton, Brigham Young, military academies, etc.). For schools that tend to have less of this behavior, you can look into Catholic schools such as Boston College and Notre Dame. At most schools she is going to have to deal with alcohol, drugs, and sex on a daily basis. She can choose not to take part, but she needs to be prepared to tolerate it. Are these fears of yours shared by your daughter?</p>
<p>My school has co-ed bathrooms unless someone on the floor objects (there are single sex floors and rooms with private bathrooms available). I live in a suite, so I don't deal with this issue, but I don't think it's a very big deal. A lot of it is proximity: with single sex bathrooms someone has to walk down the hall to use the bathroom or shower even though there's one right near by. People don't seem to have a problem with co-ed bathrooms, and I think students get used to it quickly.</p>
<p>I don't understand the set-up of the co-ed bathrooms. Are they just like any other hall bath with just toilet stalls and shower stalls? Or are the showers in a more private enclosure with a dry dressing area? I know son mentioned that last year with a hall bath (all boys) there were some boys who seemed to have a great deal of problem with the communal bath with all boys--can't imagine how they would have handled having girls in there too.</p>
<p>I see your point. However, I keep on thinking back to what a Brown student said he did on a typical Saturday night (I read this in Campusdirt.com). It said something like, "I'll pregame in my dorm room, then I'll go to some parties and drink some more and then back to my room for some good a**." This sounds like he's putting sexual relations on par with drinking alcohol. It's all about him, forget anyone else. I find this morally corrupt and I cannot imagine anyone who wouldn't. I believe this kind of behavior has long term negative consequences for both the boy and the girl. If you treat another human being so flippantly in bed, how does that translate to the rest of your life? I cannot compartmentalize like you. Just because the negative impact may not be outward (STD's, etc.) does not mean there's no negative impact.
I do realize that I may be influenced by my religious upbringing, but I cnnot rap my arms around saying that having consentual sex with whomever does not affect you somehow. We are not dogs for crying out loud!</p>