<p>Bear in mind, the wildest kids are the ones whose parents are in total denial, thinking the kid is tucked in for the night long after she's climbed out the window. And those are the kids who drive drunk and stoned,cuz they can't call their parents for fear of shocking them into reality. I feel sorry for jamimom's neighbor and his kid tho cuz now he will NEVER get a straight word out of his son. Never. Good luck to him guessing what he is and isn't doing from now on, there's no trust. Do you think those kids will stop drinking now or something? Believe me, the kid's furor will manifest itself in serious **** from now on.</p>
<p>Crruncha22, what do you think the neighbor should have done? Permitted the party to go on? Kicked them out drunk so they could drive in that conditioned? Tried to wrestle the car keys from them or prevent them from leaving? Those kids were perfectly willing to risk their lives and others' and though an argument could be made that it is Darwinism at work to let them go, I think there could have been innocent victims out there. To me the choice was very clear. </p>
<p>And knowing the wildest kids around here, having had a few of them myself, I can assure that no such relationship exists. There are plenty of parents out there who support the process. Right up until the police haul them in for being involved. The propensity for this kind of trouble does seem to be in the basic nature of the child but those parents who watch dog seem to get less trouble simply because there is less opportunity. Yeah, my kid has and will get the slip on me, but if the doors were wide open, the opportunities widen. Speak to any police department and they can give you the profile on the families and kids that are the worst offenders. They are definitely not the parents who are proactive. Total denial and eyes shut, maybe. And kids are not such cause and effect cases. I was on my nephew so closely, that there were times I know he hated me, but it did reduce his opportunities for trouble until he grew up a little bit more. And then he figured it out. He could have easily ended up in jail (the teachers, neighbors, everyone predicted he would be) instead of medical school had we not stayed right on his case and put him on a very short leash. The problem is that it takes a lot of time and trouble to do this, and many parents are conflicted and do not have the time. But I would have no hesitation in calling the police on my own children if I feel I have lost control of the situation. It would be madness to permit wild teenagers to run an adult's life.</p>
<p>Calling the police is the only legal option I can think of.
If he has underage and drunk people at his house, calling the police is the only way that he won't be assumed to have permitted that sort of behavior.
If one of those teens leaves the house and gets in an accident, it would be the neighbors fault and he can legally be charged</p>
<p>That's how I see it, Emeraldkity. And if they are the sort to be drunk and crashing a party, they are not going to willingly hand over the car keys and give their parents' name and info to an adult that doesn't have the club literally over their heads. I really saw no choice. They would have bolted, and the potential of someone innocently getting hurt would have occurred. There are some situations that are just over anyone's head, and that is when you do have to call the authorities. I am not one who loves the police or feel they necessarily have kids' best interests at heart, but you do have the weigh the possible damages.</p>
<p>In a situation like that (calling the police on the kids) you have to remember that everyone along the line has some discretion in how they deal with a situation. The police can make the decision to simply drive the kids home and hope they learned a lesson; the judge, should it go that far, can decide that it's a one time offense and ensure that a kid doesn't have a permanent record.</p>
<p>jamimom, thanks for your post. H and I lost control of a kid- not only was he sneaking out, he had figured out how to defeat our alarm system with magnets. We had to take drastic measures and S had to spent a little time in a wilderness program. We felt he would be dead or in jail if we didn't act quickly. Now he is a top student-athlete at a top prep school. People ask me if it was hard to do what we did. My answer is, "No. We saved his life."</p>
<p>I was really shocked when a set of parents who had one of the nicest most responsible girls in the class, volunteered for the senior class to have an "overnight" at their cabin for 3 or 4 days after graduation ( they would not be there)</p>
<p>Several of the parents didn't think it was a big deal, several students withheld information from their parents about the lack of chaperones and it only came out when it was discussed during a graduation planning meeting ( with parents).
My daughter didn't even tell me about it, even though the daughter was one of her friends, as she wasn't planning on going ( she had other plans) and she didn't feel comfortable with the idea. But since those kids were unsupervised and they were on the parents property, the parents could be liable for making it possible for them to be under the influence. From what I have been told, even if the parents didn't even know that the students were there, they could still be held liable.</p>
<p>The way I see it- kids who push boundaries- want there to be some boundaries that push back. Otherwise they have to keep going farther and farther out there with their behavior. Teens in someways are 3 going on 30 going on 5, they are looking for firm rules, perhaps flexibilty within those rules, but still they need something to slam up against.
Mostly I never had to establish firm boundaries because my oldest most often operated within my comfort zone, but it is a lot easier if you discuss and decide on your boundaries before hand than deciding after the fact , that something isn't acceptable.</p>
<p>cruncha, you're young and like so many young CCrs, your assumptions are extreme. </p>
<p>Most likely, that boy will simmer down and realize his father made the best judgement at the time. If they love each other, they can heal most rifts in their relationship. There is no reason they cannot reestablish an understanding.</p>
<p>I never hear a word about the times I've lowered the boom on my Ss. And I like to lower the boom in public because teenage embarrassment is a marvelous deterrent. Once, we went to a going away party and came home at 11 pm to discover the house slightly discombobulated. We wondered, but we weren't sure. S was in bed (hmmmm) but had no alcohol or smoke on his breath.</p>
<p>The next morning, we looked out the kitchen window and saw reams of white paper towel stuffed into the bushes at the rear of the property. The kids thought the towels would be 'hidden' in the bushes. Because it was dark. (Probably half were NMSs).</p>
<p>Long story short, a big group of kids surprised my son with a going away party. He knew a few kids wanted to come--but not the forty that showed up. Besides a bit of hard labour, we made S call the fathers of all the girls and apologize for hosting a party with no adult supervision. He wasn't happy but he got over it. We weren't happy, but we got over it. It didn't affect the long standing frankness and love in our relationship.</p>
<p>I agree with Jamimom. I don't think parent behavior is the absolute predictor of long term health but realistic, proactive parents MIGHT have a better shot at arresting potential trouble.</p>
<p>Jmom, my 16 year old came home a half hour late on Saturday night. We were steaming until we found out that he had walked five miles. His eyes were coming out of his head. A (drunk) boy at the party got very lippy with the father of the host. The father, an ex-cop, asked him to leave. The boy started cursing and spitting. </p>
<p>Next thing my son knew, the boy's friends picked him up and threw him into the back of the police car that had been called. S was absolutley buggeyed that any kid would speak to an adult in that manner. Especially such a BIG adult.</p>
<p>Cheers
I dislike that kids have to grow up faced with such circumstances.
I'm sorry your kid had to walk 5 miles, late at night. I would have been so upset, would get him cell phone next day.</p>
<p>He has a cell phone. Lost it. He has a car but left it at another kid's house. The kid who said he would drive him home refused. I think the scene at the party was so wild, he wanted to get out of there quickly.</p>
<p>We live in a relatively safe part of the world. He's nearly 5-11/165#. He was fine. </p>
<p>Heck, he may be tramping through Africa in two years time. I'd better get used to his independence! Thanks for the thoughts....</p>
<p>mumbe- still thinking of you and wondering how things are working out</p>
<p>well, i dont know what to say to the original post...im not a parent, (im a freshman in college), but i can tell you she just made a dumb mistake...the drinking and public intoxication...hate to rbeak it to ya, but that happens to a lot of us (fortunately never me)...the marijuana...well, many of us are naturally curious, but buying is always dumb...</p>
<p>p.s. if youve raised her right, which im sure you have (as she is now scared put of her mind), she will be smarter in the future...im sure there were times in high school when she drank and managed to get home fine...we can be pretty responsible without the 'rents knowing it</p>
<p>Here's the resolution (I'm still recovering from this episode, so I've been brooding for a couple of days on whether I even feel like talking about it):</p>
<p>She had the hearing, with the chaplain/religion professor at her side. They had spent a couple of hours discussing what she would say and how she would say it. That part went well, apparently.</p>
<p>Then she was ordered to "testify" (this isn't a real court, so I am not sure whether it amounts to "testimony") against the other kid, the seller. She was understandably reluctant, but felt she had no choice. And the chaplain adviser was not allowed to attend this one. </p>
<p>At that event, she told her story, again, at which point the seller announced that it was she -- not he -- who was doing the selling, and that he was completely innocent. At that point, she just lost her composure. Angry. Humiliated. She said she started yelling at him, calling him a liar. She was convinced that what he said was going to cause her to lose any chance of probationary status.</p>
<p>When all was said and done, however, she did get the probation that she was praying for. She and I have talked a lot, and she seems to be adamant and sincere about straight-arrow behavior, almost to the point of paranoia. I believe her. I believe she was scared to death that she was on the verge of losing a lot of things that she held dear -- and didn't realize how much they mattered to her until this happened. </p>
<p>I'm still not sure what to think about the school's process for handling this situation, though. My daughter probably was more fortunate than some others would have been because she is very articulate and because we found her the right person to act as an adviser (the chaplain). She swears to me that she was never told by the university's hearing officer that she even had the right to such counsel, and otherwise would have gone into the hearing entirely on her own. Something seems cockeyed here -- whether the school failed to notify her of that right or if she was just too upset at the time to absorb it, I don't know. </p>
<p>And I also am not sure what to think about the whole concept of a kid -- she's legally, emotionally a kid, no matter how you view it -- having to defend herself solo before the Big Institution; her chaplain/adviser was not permitted even to speak at the process. </p>
<p>I did track down a local lawyer who has both defended students against college charges and also has represented a university in its (private) prosecution of student offenders, and she said she's never heard of this particular kind of system. She researched it online, and said she has some doubts about the constitutionality of some of its aspects. </p>
<p>But it's done, and the result is acceptable, I guess.</p>
<p>I need to repeat how grateful I am for the kind thoughts and suggestions that so many people posted here while I was gripped byh parental paralysis. The good news is, she's back to being a student again. A good student. And -- really-- a good kid. As if that were ever in doubt.</p>
<p>Thanks for taking the time to update us.
I doubt that there's anything unconstitutional about the system. Without breaking the law by resorting to things such as torture, the college is entitled to use whatever system it wants as it handles on campus students accused of disciplinary violations. Heck, I imagine that instead of bothering to give her any kind of hearing or second chance, the college would have been within its rights to have kicked her out right after the incident in which she was publicly drunk.</p>
<p>The college's deciding to handle both situations itself kept your daughter from having to defend herself in the city's legal system. I can't imagine that you or she would have preferred to have her case tried in the city's court system. That would have been what could have happened.</p>
<p>I have not been in a situation in which I served on campus committees for students who had drug problems. However, I chaired a departmental committee for students having problems such as libel and cheating. There really was no need for students to bring counsel into such hearings. The committees were made up of professors who were not out to get the students, but simply wanted the students held accountable for their actions.</p>
<p>The one case I saw in which a student insisted on having her mom witness the hearing was a situation in which had very blatantly stolen something from the Internet and passed it off as her own. The student's behavior in inviting her mom to be present appeared to be the student's attempt to try to manipulate the comittee into giving the student a lesser punishment than the student's behavior deserved. The mom took time off from work and drove quite a distance to come to the hearing, and very naively appeared to think that the committee was out to get her innocent daughter.</p>
<p>The other situation that a student brought in counsel was one in which the student brought in her mom plus a lawyer. It was another case of blatant plagiarism in which the work that the student handed in was word for word work that had been published elsewhere. There was nothing that her lawyer could do for her except, frankly, tick off the various profs who had to deal with the extra red tape of answering lawyer's inquiries that would have been appropriate in a court of law, but weren't appropriate for this kind of campus matter.</p>
<p>If I were you, I wouldn't express to my daughter my doubts about the campus system. I would put the emphasis on the fact that she made some mistakes, and is very fortunate to have gotten off so lightly. I'd also try to help her think through actions she can take so as not to get into that kind of trouble again.</p>
<p>She may need to, for instance, find a new group of friends or join some new activities or get counseling to work on any issues of depression or shyness that have perhaps encouraged her to use alcohol and drugs to get social acceptance and confidence.</p>
<p>mumbe - thanks, also, for filling us in. I am glad you are over the crisis phase. And I think Northstarmom has made some very wise points in her last two paragraphs. I hope they will work for you.</p>
<p>Whew, Mumbe! Who was ever so glad to hear about a kid getting probation? I'm glad for you and for her.</p>
<p>Hope the Chaplain is getting thank you notes and cookies. Actually, I think the experience of doing the first interview with him and the second on her own was nearly ideal. It gave her a sense of what it means to have protection in those sorts of meetings. I doubt she'll forget that lesson.</p>
<p>Also, she sort of saved herself in the lion's den. Of course, she put herself in the lion's den--but the fact that she was able to save herself will be a big confidence booster. You should take heart too.</p>
<p>These kids have grown up in a couple of wildly prosperous decades. Who knows what is in store for them. They might need tough reserves in the future. Your daughter found a bit of survival instinct in that meeting. Another great lesson.</p>
<p>Mumbe -- I'm so glad she got another chance. I agree with Northstarmom about letting go of whatever you feel about how the college handled the situation. The fact is, your daughter now knows what the consequences of her actions are and will be at this university. That is a good thing. It's too early now, as the panic is still receding, but it may very well be that you and she will look back in a few years and think the school did her a favor by taking her first adventures seriously. Her focus is back where it belongs, you helped her a lot, and now the responsibility is hers. At the very least, she also now has a relationship with the campus chaplain and perhaps will continue to seek support there.</p>
<p>I strongly agree with NSM about keeping the doubts about the system to yourself - your daughter got, frankly, the best possible outcome, and it is in her best interest to absorb this lesson and grow from it - she should never be allowed to feel like the victim.</p>
<p>I know you have your daughter's best interests at heart, and I think from what you have said that she is ready to learn from her error. The situations that NSM outlines are more often the norm - the parents take the child's side no matter what, bail them out of everything - you have resisted that trap so far, don't fall into it now.
My DH teaches high school, and he sees it all the time, whether it is a function of our guilt as parents for working, or the "victim" culture of our society, or a lack of appreciation for authority, or whatever, but parents are always bailing the kids out, insisting that it is the teacher's fault, even when the child is blatantly in the wrong. It has gone so far that good teachers become cynical and bad teachers can't be dealt with. Please don't think I am belittling your concerns, or accusing you of bailing out your daughter - I think you have handled a difficult situation with wisdom, grace and love, don't undo all this emotional pain by letting her even think of ducking her responsibility in this, her future is too important.</p>
<p>A generation ago I worked as the secretary to a college judicial council, probably like the one you're describing. I think when colleges handle matters like this in-house, it's usually to the student's advantage. Clearly they could have called the police since both behaviors (underage drinking and buying pot) are illegal. I don't think you can expect to have it both ways - 'constitutional' rights and the informal, more lenient outcomes of a college judicial system. Now that it's behind you, you can breathe a sigh of relief. It looks like d. has 'smelled the coffee' and everything is in place for her to behave more appropriately and to continue to do well at school. Good luck!</p>
<p>I just want to add -- or clarify -- that I'm not trying to point any fingers at the school here. My daughter did, indeed, dig herself into this hole, and she absolutely had to face the consequences. My point, I think, was that a less-articulate kid would have been at a disadvantage in this system. But, on the other hand, a less-articulate kid probably wouldn't be at this college, anyway.</p>
<p>It's been handled. It's done. We move on, though that process will include a layer of "probation" when she comes home. I can't imagine that she'll even blink when I lay down the tighter curfew rules and my expectations. (And by the way, she is supposed to begin counseling sessions with the religion professor, who is a trained, credentialed pastoral counselor.) </p>
<p>Again, thanks.</p>