my extremely bright daughter did an extremely stupid thing

<p>I don't know if a less articulate kid would have been at a disadvantage. My experience with similar committees is that sincerity and contriteness count for a lot more than articulateness. </p>

<p>The counseling sessions sound like a good follow-up. I don't know about the probation when she's home. She is an adult. I don't know if under the circumstances I would put any more restrictions on her than I would an adult guest in my home. In addition, truth is that most of the time, she is living at college, so there's not much that setting extra restrictions at home will do to help keep her out of trouble.</p>

<p>Another vote of confidence here for you, mumbe. Very glad to read your most recent post (#140). You continue to behave wisely and to parent in the true sense of the word. </p>

<p>We have all learned from your experience and the caring and wise posts which have come from it.</p>

<p>RE: whole concept of kid, legally, emotionally. This is totally off-topic, but I have recently been reading & researching about the 8th Air Force in WWII - several of my uncles served during this time in various arms of the service. I can't help but be struck by the vast difference in what was asked of so many 18-19 yr old men (& women, mainly in their homefront capacities, but also in service) at that time, & what is typically expected of 18-19 yr olds today.</p>

<p>And many of those who served would have simply been out getting a job & marrying, if there had been no war, because college opportunities only existed for a privileged few of their generation.</p>

<p>You daughter has survived some bad choices and the consequences of them, but in the whole scheme of things, it's not a really horrible experience, it simply feels that way! She stood up for herself in the hearing & she knows now exactly what is expected of her at this college - understanding that IS being an adult imo. I think she'll do fine from here on in.</p>

<p>Re: 18-19 year olds during WW II. One has only to travel to Nebraska, Wyoming, etc. and meet kids who have grown up on ranches/farms. Driving at 12, doing work that matters to the family business. Or travel to other parts of the world. Expectations differ in time and place and they certainly do limit results.</p>

<p>I am glad that the thing is resolved as it was despite some questions about the college's system. I agree fully that you do NOT want to have had this taken to a true court of law where it might well turn out that your D ends up getting accused/suspected of selling drugs which has very serious legal ramifications, not to mention becoming part of the public record. Hopefully, she learns that one of pitfalls of drugs is the type of people you end up dealing with along with the illegal drugs.</p>

<p>The school actually did the best thing for this girl - by keeping this in the context of the college/university system and policy - they do have ways of resolving these types of issues - and that info is available - if asked about. This was not a court of law - it was a hearing with a committee - who - like a court of law - give each party the opportunity to voice their experience - in their own words - and the committee made a decision based on the information that was presented to them and per their policy. It was great that she had the support that she had tho prior to doing this - I am sure it made a huge difference for her. There are actually schools that this would have been presented to a committee of the students peers - who would act in the schools interest - and abide by policy that is established - instead of a committee of profs, school admins.</p>

<p>Had this issue been taken to the courts of the land - she would have been legally charged - and if she lost - it would be on her record forever - she would have had to answer that dreaded question YES on applications - (have you ever been arrested for any drug related............) - it would have effected her federal financial aid for a year - and it would have been a totally different type of experience.</p>

<p>Being on probation for a period of time will have a positive effect on this girl - and she will chock it up as experience and learn from it. Her reaction will make her realize the changes she will have to make - and she will be forever grateful that it was not a worse punishment - it is one she can live with and learn from. And thank goodness the school she goes to has the tolerance and policies they do have - other schools would not have given her the opportunity to stay there. So I am sure she will never do this again - or anything even close to it.</p>

<p>MOM - take a deep breath - it could have been alot worse!!!</p>

<p>As a libertarian, I would like to ask what this person has done wrong that has everyone upset? She has an absolute right to do what she wants, as long as she is not harming others. How about freedom as the only way to learn...</p>

<p>The college, in this case, really had to take some kind of action. It would be one thing if the girl was observed buying dope - in this case, she was caught on tape - presumably a tape that was used to expel/press charges against the seller. Would be difficult for them NOT to go after her. </p>

<p>Second, in my opinion, too much parent involvement/lawyers/advocates do not necessarily help the student. At a minimum, you have to be extremely careful - the results may not be what you expect. In a case I'm familiar with at our local university, a student accidentally started a fire with a joint he'd pitched in the trash. Because the campus police were researching the fire, they had to document how it started. I think the result was that the kid was kicked out of the dorm for the rest of the term. That's when the parent decided to get himself and his attorney involved. Demanded that the case go to the next level of review - which was a judicial board made up primarily of student peers. I cannot remember the ultimate punishment - but it was far worse than the original punishment. The kid was either kicked out of the dorms for good or expelled. Point is - the parent/lawyer made the situation much worse. It's important to realize that student affairs (the dept that usually handles this kind of thing) get phone calls from parents all day long making demands of one kind or another - some reasonable, some unreasonable, some downright crazy. It is never the case that parents call up to say how wonderful things are going. And as a result, student affairs people often regard parents as a pain in the neck.</p>

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<p>Heck, no better thanks than to go to church services on the Sabbath. The more time spent with Bible-studying, church going crowd rather than the beer-drinking, pot-smoking crowd--the better (although I realize that there is probably an overlap).</p>

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<p>The vast majority of colleges in the US are private institutions that students choose to attend ... and when they choose to attend they accept the rules of the school ... and that's the deal unless those rules are unconstitutional. As someone with libertarian leanings a school like BYU would be tough for me to attend ... as they have pretty stringent rules against many things that are legal outside BYU ... but that is the deal that students accept when they go to a private school. That said, if the process or rules are of the school really bother people there is nothing wrong with students (or others) working to change them ... but a private school gets to pick if it changes things or not.</p>

<p>I am with you, 3togo and Topcat. If the university had just turned the entire case over to the authorities, the students could well be facing hard time. An expensive criminal attorney would be in order. And if the kid who was selling had a good lawyer, the tables could well be turned so that it was not clear who was selling. Even if the student were expelled from the university, it would have been a far less severe punishment than what the legal system could have delivered, not to mention the possibilty of a criminal record. And expulsion would not have necessarily been such a bad thing. My concern now if for how the student is going to be able to toe the line with the notoriety. If anything comes up and she is involved, you can bet that she will be the first to be called up to the carpet. Just as the police have their regulars they question when anything happen. If this were my child, I would recommend to her to get a fresh start elsewhere.</p>

<p>one of the things that I wrestle with constantly are the mixed messages our kids receive. many parents view drinking and marijuana as rites of passage.... which is inconsistent with the law. It is against the law to drink under the age of 21... and it is against the law to have and/or buy drugs. when we were younger (back when terradactyls roamed the earth) the ramifications for drinking were minor.... today the ramifications are huge. I disagree with mensa160's viewpoint that she can do whatever she wants as long as she is not hurting anyone. The issue is that each drink or each joint dulls judgement and an individual can cross a line and potentially harm someone without intending to...that is why we have the laws to try and provide boundaries to prevent kids from getting into trouble. New research just this week talks to that portion of the brain that controls risky behavior as not maturing til age 25 or so. Kids will take the riskier path if with other kids until they reach 25 or so when they have enough confidence in themselves to choose what is best for them and/or what is right. There is a saying: Good judgment comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgment! </p>

<p>There has been a recent death of a college student here in New England....night before his 21st birthday, parents spoke with him, cautioned him not to do anything stupid etc, be careful yada yada yada....next day, celebrated with friends (involving alcohol and or drugs supposedly) and he died overnite. I do not believe this kid thought he had lived enough. The problem with substances is that too much of some makes you incapable of rational thoughts/decisions. When we tell kids they can die, they think we are exaggerating. The heartache of raising a kid for 21 yrs and to lose them in a nite of celebration is just too hard to imagine. </p>

<p>I appreciate this parent's posting this thread because extremely bright kids do extremely stupid things ALL the time. Our job is to help them face up to it and get on with their lives in a positive way, learn from it and be thankful that they escaped without injury, or hurting someone else, or a greater assault on their reputation. If we are lucky, then perhaps then can lead others by their choices too. That would be great. This experience will build mumbe's daughter's character....and hopefully it will give her better judgment!</p>

<p>mensa160
As a libertarian, I would like to ask what this person has done wrong that has everyone upset? She has an absolute right to do what she wants, as long as she is not harming others. How about freedom as the only way to learn... </p>

<p>Not meaning to sound disrespectful - but.......This nation is based on laws and being an abiding citizen - These laws, rules and regulations are an excepted part of our society - and as a part of that society - when one agrees NOT to break these laws/rules/regs - and then does - there is a consequence - absolute freedom to break laws/rules/regs without expecting any recourse is not a freedom that we enjoy - nor should be. Your comments are by far in a very small minority - IMHO</p>

<p>Thank you JeepMom! It does not matter if we think smoking a joint is ok and do as you wish, etc. What matters is that there ARE laws of the land and there ARE rules at a college and while we may disagree with those laws/rules, they are what they are and that is the system. Change the laws if you want but in the meantime, if you get caught, you will have to deal with whatever the consequences are. We can argue that smoking a joint is a private thing or not a big deal (as an example) but still, if you are caught, then you have to deal. Nobody is going to listen to "I can do whatever I want!" Now, with teens, we as parents hear "I'm gonna do what I want!" a lot but they need to learn that parents have rules, schools have rules, society has rules. You can do what you want and break the rules but just make sure you know the rules and are ready to deal with the consequences. You have a choice. </p>

<p>I am glad for the OP that her D's school dealt with it as they did (could have been far worse in terms of expulsion or involvement with the police) and they realized that teens do make errors in judgement and hopefully it is a wake up call to think before making such choices in the future. Thankfully this did not get much worse. </p>

<p>Susan</p>

<p>If anything comes up and she is involved, you can bet that she will be the first to be called up to the carpet. Just as the police have their regulars they question when anything happen. If this were my child, I would recommend to her to get a fresh start elsewhere.</p>

<p>Most kids learn from experiences like this big time - and then move on - by going thru this experience and seeing light at the end of the tunnel - she will move on also - and, I am sure, with the sense of a new lease on life and a new perspective. A fresh start elsewhere could send the message that it is ok to run away from these types of reality - they have to learn to live with their mistakes and move forward. We as parents need to look back at own lives and realize that we too were not perfect in every respect - many of us made similar mistakes and learned from them and moved on - as our kids will also.</p>

<p>Many times it is a hard lesson learned that wakes us up - and NO this kiddo is not a bad kid - just made a bad choice - as we all have at some point in our own lives. Colleges are not ''out to get our kids''!!! They are educating them and this is part of that education sometimes - the new found freedom that these kids experience can be overwhelming for many resulting in making some poor choices - no matter how we parents have tried to teach or to protect them - they need to learn some things on their own terms - just as we did. Don't expect perfection in our kids - as we were not perfect ourselves.</p>

<p>Running away is one thing. The OP's D went through the judicial process of the school and saw it out. She can now make a decision to stay or go. i would not consider it a running away issue to leave. This is not her first incident here, and for whatever reason, she is having issues with the environment. I just worry about the old "three strikes, you're out", and unfortunate things do happen. Sometimes a fresh start can make the difference. It can be a fine line, however, between making that fresh start, and running away, and it's something the OP and D have to decide themselves.</p>

<p>Leave the college? That seems a little extreme. I doubt there will be much residual from this incident provided the girl doesn't get caught again. Her fellow students will probably shrug and move on. And unless the administration suspects that she's got bigger problems, they're not going to focus any special attention her way. There's a lot of marajuana and alcohol on college campuses. This kid just happened to get caught in a situation the school couldn't ignore. </p>

<p>I recently heard a presentation by a student affairs professional who had worked at a major university in Canada as well as several in the US. When asked what the most striking difference was between US and Canadian universities, he said that the drinking age of 19 in Canada allowed him to focus on serious substance abuse problems instead of wasting a lot of administrative time on lots of kids who were having a good time and being reasonably responsible. I'd be interested in research - but I'm not convinced that the 21 drinking age is a good thing.</p>

<p>Mumbe, Thank you for sharing your daughter's story. I have learned a tremendous amount from this that I will keep in mind if either of my kids ever is in a similar situation. You have done a very good job in this case, in my opinion, and deserve a pat on the back.</p>

<p>If this had happened in high school - would you tell/suggest this student make a change of high schools - most likely NO - the student would be expected to swallow the pill and move on in the same school. Changing schools is a bit drastic - IMHO - staying there and facing your life - and maybe with a new and improved attitude from the experience - to me - is the better thing to do - it can certainly add to the maturity level of a person walking a line for awhile - and can certainly put themselves on notice - and to put this behind them and move on.</p>

<p>Situations like this happen ALLl the time - and if the student is over 18 - you - the parent - may never even have a clue that it has happened to your student - unless they have been booted out of the dorm or expelled - I would be very careful where to judge this particular student - cuz it could be yours.</p>

<p>I think I would. It would depend very much on the details of the situation, and the feel I got for the environment, but, yes, I would likely have the kids finish out the year in good graces, and then start anew. This way the records are transferred very likely without a mention of the incident, as colleges do not keep track of that stuff most of the time. My nephew got into all kinds of troubles and went to a number of colleges. Had he stayed at Pitt, where he could have continued academically, I am not sure he would have gotten the recs of the med school committee. Also, it is very difficult to divorce oneself from the very people and situations that put you on the hot seat to begin with. And if you are just unlucky and happen to be too close when a bust or something happens, the fingers can point easily at you. Why take that chance when you can start anew? My close friend's daughter's friend at a select boarding school was involved in an incident that really got her into trouble. She got through it, packed her bags and went to another school. That they took her was a sign that the incident was not on her record; behavioural issues rarely are, and a couple of years later she went ivy to college. She really did not want to be the subject of a thorough rec that these schools tend to give their students when they write for the adcoms. In her case, it was a smart move, as the kids she was with all of the time, all ended up in further trouble, and some of them were thrown out, later. Once you have this problem on your record, there can easily come a point when the school is done with you even if its not really your fault. Just as that "dealer" blamed the girl for doing the dealing, someone else can dump on you, and with a track record of two substance abuse issues, who do you think will come across as more believable. She has a good chance of walking the straight and narrow for a while because of the shock value of what happened, but the chance of a relapse in the same environment to me is higher than if she picks her company a little more carefully wisely at a new locale. It's difficult just to give the old crowd a cold shoulder. It takes alot more strength and resolve than most of us have.</p>