<p>The ‘meaningful research’ part is important, as is a realistic assessment of the student’s chances. The Common Data Set (or whatever it’s called) is a great resource - but often parents do not listen to what their kids are telling them, or the counselors. In my generation, getting to college was easy. Apply and a few months letter show up. Sure, the elite schools will always be elite. My roommate applied to CalTech and they sent him a postcard with “dear XXX, you’re not good enough, don’t bother” or some such but getting to even very good schools was not a problem. There was no craze for HYPS, elite LACs, and the like to the extent that it is now. </p>
<p>Today competition was far more intense and expectations are even higher. Many parents grab the rankings and go from there. While there is some validity in this approach, mostly fueled by parents’ fear that only a top-10 school guarantees employment and return on investment, a more realistic question to ask is this - if we truly become a society where only the top school grads have a chance of real work and the rest of us are delegated to the Illium Works then what is the point of going to college altogether?</p>
<p>^^I highly doubt it will come to that! It’s not a secret that kids do manage to get jobs every day and do manage to rise through the ranks of the workforce out of their “local schools” and as a previous poster enjoy their colleges and their four years just as much as anyone else. I just refuse to be part of the hang wringing and chest beating. If that were the case 2,990 and then some colleges would soon be out of business.</p>
If this is the list of schools that most interest you, I’m afraid I can’t agree with those who are telling you that this is enough schools. Several of these schools are reaches for all applicants, and your credentials, while very good, will not put you in the top tier of applicants at those schools, especially the Ivies. I think your instinct–to apply to more reaches in the hopes of getting admission to at least one–is correct, at least if you really want to go to that kind of school. No amount of research on “fit” will alter the fact that Ivies reject the vast majority of applicants.</p>
<p>As far as visits, I think they’re useful, but I don’t think that they constitute your real problem. I also agree with others that you need to press your dad to explain exactly how finances are involved here. If he won’t pay for you to go to Princeton, there’s no reason to visit or apply.</p>
<p>When I was applying to schools, applying to five was the rule of thumb…so perhaps the OPs dad is coming from that perspective which is out of date.
OTOH applying to 10+ is not necessary either, as making very careful selection of a well researched list will go along way. </p>
<p>Also, the OPs academic stats etc… may be “matches for some schools”, yet many of those schools are reaches–and without a hook–the stats just aren’t there…
It is possible that the parent does not want to spend money looking at schools if the OP doesn’t have the stats etc…some of those schools have admit rates of less than 10%.
We also don’t know if the financial picture is driving part of this…those schools are spread out</p>
<p>OP–You need to create a chart with your stats and the schools admit stats (common data set), as well as the financial tings, tuition etc.
When my spouse created the financial spreadsheet and realized that the COA of the schools “on the list” was ranging from the 40s-50s…it was a wake up call that things had changed in 25 years! haha</p>
<p>OP, you, your parents and your GC need to come up with a good list. Do some great research online-- so that if you do visit schools that the time and travel is fruitful.</p>
<p>Five or six is enough as long as two of them are real safeties. Given the OP’s stats, I’d say he has one potential safety - UIUC, which is also his instate flagship and thus (given his financial situation) also a financial safety. He has stated, however, that he does not want to go there, which makes it (IMO) not a true safety.</p>
<p>OP – my dad wasn’t 100% supportive about my college search back in the day either. He wanted me to go to the school which was walking distance from my house. The problem was that the school would be too easy for me academically and wasn’t as prestigious/well-regarded as the schools I knew I could get into. (Luckily, I will admit I had my mom to back me up in the entire process.)</p>
<p>I applied to the schools I wanted to apply to. If my dad didn’t like it, so what. I would be the one going to school and whatever loans I would have to take out would go in my name anyway.</p>
<p>My mom and aunt took my cousin and I on a college tour of Southern California. My mom was supposed to go to the East Coast with me, but she was unable to go last minute and my dad had to end up taking me. Him being forced to go really changed his mind. He fell in love with my first choice school (but I was rejected) and was able to discuss with me his fears about me going away to school. Perhaps your father, too, has some of these deep-seated fears and you should put yourself in a situation to talk about it.</p>
<p>When I decided on USC – which, also, I think you should look into because it has a great engineering program and is a more “match” school than the Ivies you listed given your stats – I again got into a situation where my dad was forced to come to admitted student day with me. He was VERY reluctant for me to go, but once Orientation rolled around, he slowly warmed up to the school. Now, I think my Dad is more of a Trojan than I am! He’s also probably the most excited that I’m going back to USC for grad school.</p>
<p>The point is – dads are stubborn and you should probably have a talk with your dad where you are calm, provide financial facts on how much a visit would cost and do not let it turn into an argument. Also show your dad this thread and statements from admissions at your top schools as to how important campus visits and interviews can be. He is probably just nervous and afraid and masking it through his negative emotions.</p>
<p>If he still doesn’t budge, see if there’s a close friend or family member also planning a college trip and go along with them. You don’t need a parent to visit schools!</p>
<p>You don’t need to see a school you know you will like to apply. I like the earlier suggestion of proposing attending admitted student days for your top three choices if given admission.</p>
<p>No disagreement - I am talking about the **perception **versus the **realities ** of the job market.</p>
<p>My first job 26 years ago straight out of Directional State University was in a very (very) prestigious industrial laboratory. Took me a month to figure out that if one did not have the degree from the anointed schools one was largely not deemed worthy of employment or serious career growth prospects. Nearly 1500 researchers and nearly all their output in the 3 years I was there was conference papers. The company went Chapter 11 a few years ago after the staff was trimmed from 1500 to a tenth that. That’s what perception is all about. In practice, I could hold my own but pedigree was as important there as in the Westminster AKC show…</p>
<p>The best quote I have on the subject was from a one-time officemate with a doctorate from Carnegie Mellon. He said, in his view, the difference between top 10 schools and the rest is not really at the top; the good students from CMU are good. The good students from Directional State U, well, they are good pretty much - not equal, of course, but good enough, give or take. The difference is that CMU’s ‘bad’ students are still darned good, whereas the ‘baddies’ at Directional State U are ‘bad, period’.</p>
<p>UIUC is a fine engineering school, and if it is an admissions and financial safety for the OP, then the OP should have no academic regrets going there.</p>
<p>However, if the OP does not actually want to go there, then the search for a safety school becomes significantly harder. Maybe Minnesota, Cal Poly SLO, Virginia Tech (OOS schools whose OOS tuition / costs are not that high), or Alabama (generous scholarship offers for high stats applicants)? Finding a safety with comparable engineering academics to UIUC may be difficult.</p>
<p>After looking at the schools the OP has a preference for </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I’m also going to suggest that, because of the lack of ECs, they should consider dropping the Ivies (except Cornell) and Duke and pick up some stellar non-Ivy schools to apply to that align with their stats. </p>
<p>It may change the dad’s mind if they apply to good schools they would definitely be admitted to; it is quite possible the father doesn’t want to arrange visits to Penn/Princeton/Columbia/Duke if the OP isn’t a 100% shoo-in. (Which, sorry to say, they aren’t. No one is a shoo-in for those schools, anyway.)</p>
<p>I suggest the OP consider:
Harvey Mudd
Cal Poly SLO
Georgia Tech
UT Austin</p>
<p>He should visit UIUC at least and prepare to be impressed by the facilities, labs, & engineering buildings. New Siemens Center. And my favorite is the Math Library–I forget the name of it, but it’s cute, old, and castle-like. I thought “This place appreciates math!” :D</p>
<p>The OP says he is concerned about the heavy Greek scene at UIUC. I just looked at UIUC’s common data set. According to the CDS, 79% of the undergraduates at UIUC are NOT fraternity/sorority members. </p>
<p>OP, I have to second the posters who have brought up finances, it’s really crucial that you know how much your parents are able/willing to contribute before you spend much time putting together a list and negotiating visits. Whether (1) your parents haven’t come to terms yet with how much they can contribute or (2) they’ve figured it out, but haven’t shared it with you yet, it’s a big mistake to put off resolving this issue. If you’re right, and your parents are ok with coming up with the likely $20+K per year you’ll need as an OOS student at UMich for example, then that will be a wonderful thing and you can focus on fit; but if there’s been any misunderstanding on this point, then you’ll be glad to get the facts in time to help you craft a list of real options. This is important for everyone, but it’s crucial for someone who might apply to 5 schools instead of 15.</p>
<p>For the first half of D2’s college search, we thought money wouldn’t be the deciding factor (although we have a very different financial situation than your family); when I finally got up the courage to run the numbers regarding how much we could contribute and my daughter seriously considered how much debt she was willing to take on for undergrad, it turned out money was a huge factor for all of us. If the difficult conversations and soul searching had happened sooner, we could’ve saved the expense and stress of applying to and visiting so many schools that provided very predictable aid packages (which none of us were willing to pay for).</p>
<p>I agree with annasdad, a school you don’t want to go to isn’t a true safety; D2 hated the instate public financial safety everyone suggested, so in the end it wasn’t a useful safety for HER. I think it’s helpful to have more than one safety if possible - D2 applied to two financial safeties in addition to our instate flagship (one with guaranteed merit aid, and another we thought likely to be generous for her stats), and made a point of visiting both (one of them, a couple of times!); although they were very different, she decided she could go to either school, even though they weren’t her first choices initially. In the end, those were the schools that made the final cut, and I’m glad she had a choice. </p>
<p>And finally, re: college visits - I was convinced they would be realy useful while D2 was skeptical and I think we were both right We limited visits to schools within 1 day’s driving distance, except we let her choose one school which required a plane ticket. I do think showing interest by visiting/interviewing (and arranging a local alumni interview when we couldn’t vist) did help my daughter at some schools, so I hope your father will reconsider; if financial issues are on his mind, who knows, having a financially realistic list of schools might help.</p>
<p>You cant possibly know which college you want to go to without visiting several to find out what exactly you want in a college. You pay thousands of dollars to get that education! When you fond the right college…you will just know it! Not only by what they have to offer you, but because it feels right. For the next four years of your life that is going to be home. You cant just pick a college at random and hope its everything you wanted it to be. It just doesnt work like that. Your dad needs to be more understanding…this is for you not him. This is your future. You need to sit down and tell him how you feel. Explain that every college has a lot of different things to offer…things that could determine your whole college experience. Online pages or a peice of paper wont be enough when you decide the right college. You need to get out their and visit colleges with your desired major.</p>
While I respect that you obviously got ‘that feeling’ regarding your college choice, please understand that not every student does…in fact very few students actually have that defining moment you are describing where they stand on a campus and realize they are ‘home’. My son didn’t. He was very torn between his top two choices, both excellent universities. I happen to think he made an excellent choice, but it was a very difficult decision. There was no wrong choice for him, no obvious ‘one and only’.</p>
<p>I actually think it’s a far better idea to visit AFTER you’ve been accepted, and apply based on your interest in programs and interest in location. That way, you don’t get delusions, let downs are easier, and you’re actually comparing colleges. That’s how I made my decision.</p>
<p>I actually agree with your father. Honestly you get a better feel by talking to people and reading college reviews than on the glorified sales trips the colleges put you through. I only applied to two schools (got into both) and visited both of them because they were within driving distance.</p>
<p>I suggest that you pick the school you are most likely to go to (no longshots) which is both close and affordable and see if your father will pay for a visit. If not, no worries, the sales pitch the schools throw you is very unlike actually going there, and it really helps very little.</p>
<p>I agree with your dad as well, to a certain extent. After going on numerous college visits, I can firmly say most of them were a huge waste of time. Just read up on different college review websites (Student REviews, College P R Owler, etc.) to get a feel for what people like and dislike about schools. Take them with a grain of salt because most people actively posting things about their school have something bad to say. However, this can also work for you because you know a school is right for you when you like what others complain about (as far as things like social life and location; for example, if people are complaining about a big Greek system in a rural area but you know that’s something you want, that can only help your app decisions).</p>
<p>Most top schools couldn’t care less if you visited or not because they assume (correctly) that chances are you will go to their school if accepted. Top schools have great yields and don’t need everyone and their mother to come visit to pick up a full and strong incoming class. I don’t know your stats, but certain “just below the top” schools do want to see your interest because they often lose a lot of kids to better schools or better scholarships at not-as-good schools. One of these that comes to mind is Lehigh. They seriously had like 5 or 6 questions on their Common App asking about whether you visited, toured, talked to an alumnus, etc.</p>
<p>The one thing that I would seriously confront your father again with is the 5 school limit. It’s ridiculous, really. Try and settle half way and get 7 maybe. But as far as visits go, never visit your reaches. You will most likely, and naturally, fall in love with them and get crushed if you don’t get in. If you end up being able to, visit match schools if they have a reputation for looking at interest, and then visit your safeties. You’ll feel a lot better during the time waiting for acceptances when you know you’ve got a school that you really like and know you’ll get into.</p>
We limited visits to schools within 1 day’s driving distance, except we let her choose one school which required a plane ticket. I do think showing interest by visiting/interviewing (and arranging a local alumni interview when we couldn’t vist) did help my daughter at some schools, so I hope your father will reconsider; if financial issues are on his mind, who knows, having a financially realistic list of schools might help.</p>