<p>rebel, remain strong. You will never be able to avoid ignorance on this earth, even from your own family. However you can learn to overcome such pitiful signs of unacceptance. Your parents need to learn to accept you for what you are, and not what they want you to be. Dont let ANYONE take that away from you.</p>
<p>M&B, you are confusing nature with societal acceptance. There are as many gays in the Middle East as there are in the US...but in the Middle East, parents would eityher kill their children if they are gay, or die themselves of a heart attack. And those are the best-case-scenarios! LOL But let me tell you, I know at least 3 or 4 gays, and that's out of 40 or 50 people that I know well. So clearly, homosexuality is not unusual in the Middle East. </p>
<p>And M&B, sexual orientation is NOT a choice. I have never met a person who is gay that "chose" to be gay, it is a primal instinct which cannot be denied.</p>
<p>"However, science has shown and proved that those who are homosexual are such because of genetics."</p>
<p>This is absolutely wrong. The best that science has been able to do thus far is show about a 50% correlation between genes and sexual orientation--meaning that while there's certainly a strong argument for a genetic basis, it is by no means the only factor.</p>
<p>ctrain, ill enlighten you a bit about recent studies...</p>
<p>In the past 4 months, extensive scientific research has been done to study the mind and sexuality. Recently, scientists began studying more about pheromones in the human body (and no M&B, pheromones are not "pseudoscience" as you would like to claim). Pheromones have been studied all over the animal world, in both animals and human beings. If you do not know about pheromones, pheromones are the "natural scent" given off by the human body that triggers sexual hormones. Recent studies show that the homosexual mind is triggered by male-pheromones rather than female pheromones. Scientists have discovered, through these studies, that the homosexual (male) mind is triggered much like that of a female. The body naturally detects this pheromone (you obviously wont be able to tell) and it triggers sex hormones. Not only have they recently understood this relationship between pheromones, but also, scientists have had comprehensive studying of the brain (homosexual vs heterosexual). Just like the recent study on celebrities (certain brain cells are triggered each time you see the same celebrity), homosexual brain cells are triggered much like that of their female counterparts during sexual arousal. Science has already pretty much guaranteed that homosexuality is genetic (however, it is still not 100% sure that it is hereditary). Just like in humans, researchers have also discovered the homosexuality trait in animals (sheep, dolphins, dogs, farm animals, etc).</p>
<p>How is proving that men turn gay guys on proof that homosexuality is genetic?</p>
<p>Studies have been done on genetic twins, and when one twin is gay, the other is only about 50% of the time, far less than the near 100% correlation you'd expect if homosexuality were purely genetic.</p>
<p>Furthermore, think you grossly underestimate society's influence on sexual practices. Attractive qualities in a sexual partner are very much culturally relative, as are the frequency, manner, etc. of sexual intercourse. In ancient Greece many men in the upper crust engaged in heterosexual intercourse only as a means of reproduction, preferring homosexual sex as a means of pleasure; That is clearly a byproduct of cultural influence rather than genetic predisposition.</p>
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How is proving that men turn gay guys on proof that homosexuality is genetic?
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<p>Exactly. Digging into human "pheromones" (something still not even conclusively shown to exist) seems extremely dubious to be, but I suppose when it's all you have...</p>
<p>What I don't get is the jump from gays react to guys like women react to guys = genetic cause? Isn't it more likely the behavior is learned anyway? It certainly isn't any proof for genetic homosexuality. Think Pavlov's dogs (eg if you smelled the same thing every time before you had sex you would get turned on by the scent, as well).</p>
<p>As for the twin thing - you have to remember that those twins were raised in the same household in the same area of the same society (eg the true causes of homosexuality). If you seperated twins at birth I would be willing to bet my left arm that the correlation would drop even lower.</p>
<p>Also, Alexandre - If I'm not mistaken you (and probably most of your friends) were (if not born) educated and socialized in the US. How many of your homosexual friends lived and learned exclusively in the mid-east and still became gay? I'm genuinely interested in what your answer is - my guess would be 0 or very, very few.</p>
<p>I have two uncles that are twins and they are gay. Both went to different colleges and grad schools and both came out after college. It may be how they were raised, but how does that explain my mothers other brother and herself? It just seems odd.</p>
<p>M&B, you obviously are not a science major. Pheromones are real, whether you would like to leave your own sheltered world or not. Pheromones aren't like God. Their existence isn't debatable. There are several types of pheromones in animal bodies, those include alarm pheromones, sexual pheromones, trail pheromones. Sex pheromones are known to govern sexual activity. The only thing that is "debated" is if they truly govern human sexual preference, which now most experts are saying they do. </p>
<p>Ctrain, homosexuality has never been proven to be hereditary (passed down). There is a difference between heredity and genetic marks. What science has shown is that there are indeed differences in the functioning of the human mind between homosexuals and heterosexuals. It can be seen through brain scans and brain monitors. Your example is just like if a boy is born with a genetic defect, will this twin have it as well? No, not necessarily. I am not saying homosexuality is a genetic defect, but it is seen through the genes.</p>
<p>M&B, you completely misunderstand, as Alexandre has pointed out, social acceptance and nature. Many Middle-eastern countries have laws that if you are gay you must be executed. Now, would you want to "come-out" and die, or just suppress it and just live single? Social acceptance and tolerance is very different in Asia and the Middle-East. M&B, your theory is mistaken. In most parts of Asia (especially Taiwan, Japan, China), inter-racial marriages are still not tolerated. Many people I know in Taiwan do not understand how an asian could marry a black person and have the family live with it. Asia is such a homogenuous society, tolerance plays a much different issue there. You can't compare Asia to the United States. </p>
<p>No, it is not that there are 0 homosexuals in the Middle East, there could, however, be 0 homosexuals that are open about it.</p>
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Pheromones are real, whether you would like to leave your own sheltered world or not.
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<p>In insects -laugh... Human pheromones are very much in question, whether you would like to leave your own sheltered world or not.</p>
<p>Even if they weren't - how do you get from guys turn gay guys on to genetics cause guys to turn gay guys on?</p>
<p>...:sound of crickets chirping:...</p>
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In most parts of Asia (especially Taiwan, Japan, China)
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<p>Yes, they must be just being supressed, right?</p>
<p>...but if 10% of the population is genetically determined to be gay, there must be hundreds of references to this opression in the 3000 year-old history of the area, right? I mean you'd think that if 10% of a huge population was opressed over the course of 3000 years someone would have said something (anything) about it. Or not...</p>
<p>Likewise with the Greeks - they wrote some of the most beautiful love poetry history has ever seen - about their male sexual liasons! Men were almost universally considered more beautiful (and sexually desirable) than women. The 90% of the population that wasn't genetically gay under your supposed definition (eg 10% genetically gay) must have been just acting? All the poetry, history, and plays suggest otherwise...</p>
<p>Nearly everyone could either be gay or straight; what you turn out as is a product of your upbringing, your society, and choice - whether or not you'll admit to seeing the white elephant in the room.</p>
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<blockquote> <p>Ctrain, homosexuality has never been proven to be hereditary (passed down). There is a difference between heredity and genetic marks.<<</p> </blockquote>
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<p>I'm pretty sure my original argument was that science hasn't shown any concrete proof that homosexual is entirely genetic/hereditary...
There have actually been studies that show distinct genetic markers on the X chromosome of gay men (i.e. the trait would be passed down from their mother's side). Not surprisingly, many of the men in the study also reported having an unusually large number of gay men on their mother's side of the family. All of this would seem to point to a genetic cause or a "gay gene," but again, the specific X-chromosome activity wasn't common to all of the men. In the study I'm thinking of I think it was present in 33 out of 43 men.</p>
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<blockquote> <p>Your example is just like if a boy is born with a genetic defect, will this twin have it as well? No, not necessarily. <<</p> </blockquote>
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<p>Actually, yes, yes necessarily. Identical twins share IDENTICAL genes.</p>
<p>Showing different brain functioning in homosexuals similarly does NOT necessarily indicate a genetic link. The different brain functioning could very well be socioculturally influenced. Brain scans don't tell you a thing about genetics.</p>
<p>In short, scientists don't know exactly why people are homosexual; I don't know either; neither do you, neither does Maize, neither does anyone else. The best guess is that sexual orientation--like most other complex behavior--involves a combination of genetic and environmental factors.</p>
<p>On a related genetics note, if a girl has a threesome with identical twins and gets pregnant, an exact match for the father cannot be determined because of DNA that is the same for the identical twins.</p>
<p>by just reading the title, i thought this thread was going to be about inter-racial dating, but this topic is also an important one to discuss. just a disclaimer: i am extremely tired, and it's already 3:30 am so my thoughts probably won't flow as well as i hope they would. at this point, it's really the thought that counts.</p>
<p>rebel- i think your parents are in a state of shock right now, and that's acceptable. making rude comments to your children, however, is definitely not. it's a sign of immaturity. if they're still dwelling on this after several months (for instance, if they're still acting differently towards you), you need to tell them that there's more to life than your children's sexuality. at that point, they would need to get over the fact that you're gay/bisexual and find something else to dwell on. </p>
<p>i love it when my parents are outraged, and i understand why bringing up a topic like this to your parents can really make them have second thoughts about how well they raised their children. i don't agree that you have to avoid discussing it with them at the appropriate times. if i were you, i would actually use it to my advantage. it's not like you're just making it up in act of rebellion (in that sense, i did not find that specific comment by maize offensive). it's your parents fault that they reacted that way, and their fault why you find yourself in a position to have to use your homosexuality as a weapon against them. if they had been accepting, you wouldn't have to do that.</p>
<p>i can't believe that some people are actually willing to die just so they wouldn't have to "make out" with the person of the same sex. i know the thought disgusts you, but if your life is at stake, you still wouldn't be willing to do it? no one even suggested that rebel wanted to "make out" with his friend. emotional connection and making out are correlated, but they are not the same. </p>
<p>people who give anecdotal evidence of people who were supposedly gay but became straight are not reliable. how do you know the person was actually gay? in such cases, the person realized that he or she is gay over time. the same is true for people who have same-sex affairs when they are married and already have children. they were able to have children because the thought of sex is what aroused them, not necessarily the female partner. the affair signals when he realized he was gay, or when he realized that he couldn't change just because of marriage.</p>
<p>why do many people who finally realize they are gay commit suicide? the suicide notes reveal that they simply couldn't deal with the stigma society placed on them for being gay. they speak of their struggles in trying to become straight. it is not doable. also, how are straight people able to argue with gays on this issue? how do they know that gay people can become straight, unless they are in the gay person's shoes? </p>
<p>in cases where people claim they became straight, a probable cause of their temporary confusion is that they were molested as a child by a member of the same sex. consequently, their adolescent brains can't help but think sexually about members of the same sex-- even as they grow up (that's either the reaction, or they are traumatized by the thought of sex altogether). my friend told me-- that's how i know. it's a matter of fact that many molested children are born straight. the molestation puts them in a confused state, even though they are naturally attracted to members of the opposite sex. in this case, thinking sexually about members of the same sex does not make them gay, because "thinking about" doesn't necessarily equate "fantasizing."</p>
<p>finally, rebel, i admire your courage for telling your parents. i think i am bisexual but i don't yet have the nerves to confront my parents. i once questioned our religion, and they thought i was possessed. </p>
<p>i hope you have friends with whom you can share your frustrations. when you said you thought you loved the other person, i know exactly what you mean. i don't know why i love the person i love. i just do, and it came naturally. (of course, this very much depends on whether i even know what "love" really means). however, as sad as it is to admit it, i would very much prefer being straight, because my situation has cost me quite a few friends. people also have preconceived notions that are hard to erase. and i constantly worry about what my parents will think of me. in the end, you will know who your true allies are. it's amazing when you finally reach that point.</p>
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Yes, they must be just being supressed, right?</p>
<p>...but if 10% of the population is genetically determined to be gay, there must be hundreds of references to this opression in the 3000 year-old history of the area, right? I mean you'd think that if 10% of a huge population was opressed over the course of 3000 years someone would have said something (anything) about it. Or not...
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</p>
<p>Actually, if you know anything about the history and culture of China, it's perfectly reasonable for homosexuality to be completely surpressed. Most people aren't even educated well enough to have made any sort of historical record. The people who were educated are under tremendous pressure to be successful, and admitting that they were gay certainly would hinder their chances. Also, it is apparent that as Taiwan becomes more westernized (I live in Taiwan), more and more people are willing to admit that they are gay.</p>
<p>Also, in Japan, many Samurai warriors were known to practice homosexuality.</p>
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Also, it is apparent that as Taiwan becomes more westernized (I live in Taiwan), more and more people are willing to admit that they are gay.
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<p>As Taiwan becomes more like the US, more people become gay.</p>
<p>...and you're using that as an example of society not influencing the prevelance of homosexuality?</p>
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Most people aren't even educated well enough to have made any sort of historical record.
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<p>10% of the population isn't oppressed for 3000 years with no mention of it anywhere. If it were just the case that it was a lack of education why were other oppressive behaviors documented and remembered in folklore etc?<br>
The oppression of the Han under the Qing, The oppression of all Manchu's under the Hui (I think - I could be mistaken on that one). The violence when the Khanates began to dissipate. The extermination of Buddhism and Buddhists by Xuanzong dynasty in 845 (hint Buddhism was a much smaller population subset than what people claim homosexuality is - it was almost completely eradicated, so why does this event remain in history?)</p>
<p>Suffice it to say, everyone, it is NOT a choice. Why do gay teens have such a high rate of suicide? The most common cause of suicide among teenage boys is because they are gay.</p>
<p>People who have trouble coming out feel worthless and unsupported. They cant explain why they are like they are and many of them would give anything not to be like that. Whether the causes be genetic or not, it is not a conscious choice. It is what I can only imagine must be an unfathomable burden.</p>
<p>By the way, Maize&Blue, and environment cant "make" you gay all of a sudden. Its not like people go to college and then all of a sudden they "turn" gay. Homosexuality invites so much scorn that people stay in the closet, many for their entire lives. In some cultures, admitting to being a homosexual is the same as signing a death warrant. In others, it is the same as being in exile.</p>
<p>When people go to college, all of a sudden they find themselves in an environment removed from their parents and their parents' expectations. Moreover they find themselves in a more open and accepting environment. All of a sudden, they can stop hiding what they have known for a long time.</p>