<p>Hi everyone! I could really use some advice. I am the parent of 4 kids. Oldest is a Sr at Duke majoring in mechanical engineering. He was well known and well liked at our high school. He was student body president...etc. Second oldest is a sophomore pre-med student at Harvard. She was probably one of the best athletes to come out of our school plus student body VP, etc - oh and she is tall, blonde, and gorgeous - the complete package. Third child - junior in high school this year. Great student, great personality and is very popular socially. Excellent athlete but he is small in size and that has inhibited him. POOR test taker! Low SAT scores so far and because of the make-up of his class (many bright kids) he will be lucky if he is ranked in the top 10. He is as smart, if not smarter than his older siblings! Here is the problem....intense pressure to be like his older siblings. Everyone is talking at his high school about where he plans to go to college...the shoes he has to fill. HE DOES NOT GET THIS FROM HOME. We have always supported our kids with whatever THEIR goals were. I guess I should add that no one from our high school, which is in a small town, has ever gone to Harvard or Duke. He wants to go to a big school like his older siblings but he keeps putting himself down and saying he wont be accepted. Unless he really improves his scores, he is probably right. I need advice on how to keep him feeling positive about himself. I am not sure how to handle all the pressure he is under. I want to be there to help him and guide him to do what he needs to do to improve his scores without making him feel that pressure. He is such an awesome kid and is much more funloving at school. He tends to be more of the life of the party than the other two and everyone likes him. BUT it is like there is a cloud hanging over him and I want to make it go away. He told me yesterday that the kids are all starting to talk about it. They are telling him that he has to go to Princeton or Yale because of his siblings - otherwise he is a loser. It breaks my heart. BUT if I tell him that he doesn't have to go to one of these schools I am afraid that he will feel like I don't have confidence in him....so I feel like I am between a rock and a hard place. I don't want to encourage him to go for it, and I don't want to advise him not to. Do you all understand? He is a very special kid and suffered from chronic migraines that hospitalized him frequently from the time he was 5 to 15. He has finally outgrown them and becoming his own person. It has not been easy for him. What to do??? I should also add that he has a younger sister who is 11 who is a very talented actress and singer. She has a manager and agents in NYC and is very well known for her talents where we live. So...that also complicates things in some ways for him I am sure. More pressure to excel like his siblings.....
I am hoping someone has some advice because I feel like I am walking on egg shells.</p>
<p>I’d suggest that you start encouraging him to look into elite LACs that are SAT-optional, like Bowdoin. For a large school, look at McGill. Expand his horizons. In a positive way, not in a “you won’t get in to the Ivies/Duke/Stanford” way. (And maybe he will get in, if that is what he really wants.)</p>
<p>If he develops an interest in schools outside of the type that seems obvious to his peers in your town, when someone tells him he ought to go to Y or P, he can reply that he is interested in going to school in Canada, or that he’s interested in LACs like X. Something different. His own path.</p>
<p>I would also encourage him to keep his application choices private.</p>
<p>BTW, how bad ARE his SATs? Have you considered giving the ACT a shot?</p>
<p>I have 3 kids, and the first two are at Ivies. (Ironically, our second has severe chronic health problems, including migraines and seizures, and being at a top school is awfully difficult). Our school is small, and not high quality: just as in your situation, noone has gone to these two colleges , and much was made of the fact that they went to these schools (even though, frankly, we could have cared less).</p>
<p>Our third is not very interested in academics (though in our school. she does fine…mabbe top 25%, don’t really know, but her SAT’s weren’t great). When she went back to school this fall, an English teacher asked her what she had read over the summer, and when she answered, nothing (leaving out the fact that she was at an intense dance program all summer), the teacher said, “Boy you sure aren’t like your sister, are you?” Teachers have come up to me for years, saying “Can’t wait to get another (our last name)”. Then, they actually get angry at this daughter for not measuring up, or not paying attention. They think she is just being difficult. I am amazed at the insensitivity of some of these teachers.</p>
<p>We have had her evaluated, actually, in both 3rd grade and 12th, telling her it was to find out her learning style and the best kind of school for her. She wanted this evaluation, so it was not awkward. Evaluation found that she is a “slow processor,” who can do very well on testing, but only if she has sufficient time. She also has some possible ADD.</p>
<p>We haven’t pursued accommodations with SAT’s, because she really doesn’t care. She plans on dancing and not going to college right now. But it is possible that your son’s scores could be improved as a result of accommodations, if there is a learning problem of any kind. It may just show up on testing. If there is a big gap between his academic performance, versus his test scores, you could think about finding out why.</p>
<p>Our family cultivated interest in books like “Beyond the Ivies” and “College that Change Lives” with all of our kids. "Cool Colleges, " and “Creative Colleges” as well. Our older kids would have been fine at our state university, or, in one case, at a music conservatory. It sounds like your family is similar and is not focused on hyper-competitive college admissions.</p>
<p>So, what to do with the rest of the world? I talked with the English teacher, about her comments. She is actually an insightful person and was embarrassed. I talked with the principal about the problem in general, for many younger siblings. Our daughter’s friends joke about the expectations put on her, and she is lucky that any joking about which Ivy she is going to are made by friends who truly understand the situation, and who value her for being kind of alternative.</p>
<p>When our youngest was 8, she began dancing. She now dances professionally at times. This has saved her in so many ways. She has actually skipped her senior year and got her GED, so she could dance. So our situation is different from yours (maybe more like your youngest), but I am sending sympathies your way. </p>
<p>I don’t know what’s wrong with people sometimes, I really don’t!</p>
<p>Yes, my three are different and many teachers think that siblings will be “similar.” If I were the OP I would look for very different colleges. Definitely some of the well respected SAT/ACT optional NE schools but what about entirely different regions of the country? Perhaps if your son expands his mind into other regions of the country it will be unique and he will ‘own’ that experience (of leaving the region) in a different way that can’t be compared to his siblings that are lodged in the NE. The other benefit is that while HYPetc. are certainly known outside the NE region it’s just a really different attitude once you leave that region. It’s more “how cool is that, or how nice” compared to “worship or envy” so your son, if he moves outside the geographic region, won’t even have that HYP envy to deal with. Look at some of the interesting colleges that “get” HYP caliber students who don’t want HYP…Colorado College is an easy example because so many kids want to go to Colorado. Colorado gets it’s share of HYP caliber students but also attracts smart, fun-loving kids…that’s just one example, the forums are full of examples like this, I’m just throwing that one out there as an example. California, another state that has some very good private colleges and…it’s California, it’s also got a lower HYP envy-factor… and then there are the stand-by Ivy-esque reputation colleges these days like WashU or Carlton that are out of region but garner the same “devotion anre respect” as the Ivies and popular Mid-Atlantic colleges.</p>
<p>Well when he first started talking about colleges he would always say - ‘there is no way I am going to an Ivy’ and he would talk about going to a big sports oriented school because he loves to follow teams…but it all started to change this fall and the Ivies and Duke started creeping into the conversations. I think he WANTS to go to H or Duke but is afraid of failure AND all the pressure from everyone. His scores ARE low…610v, 650m, 520w but he has only taken the SAT once. I know he has a very high IQ because my 3 older ones were tested when they were younger so that they could participate in a G and T program. In fact, I think he had the highest IQ. My dh and I are happiest that our kids are all kind, compassionate, and respectful of others. We want them to find their passions and excel at the things that make them happiest. I dont care where he goes to school as long as it is the right choice for HIM…but I feel like he is putting pressure on himself as well as experiencing it from others…I know full well that he could handle H or D if he got in and maybe that’s what I should tell him but be real about the fact that his scores might prohibit him??? I will certainly take the advice about not mentioning the schools he is looking at. My hope is that he will find a school that is not as competitive to get in that he just LOVES. The other complication for him is that he has no idea what he wants to study and his siblings knew and are very focused on their goals. It is hard to look at schools when you have NO IDEA what you want - this is new for us. On one hand he is thinking Babson for business and on the other an IVY type for pre-med!!! ARGHH!</p>
<p>He has not taken the ACT yet, but he will! I don’t think he is going to fair much better with this one either because he didn’t score well on the Plan test which I believe is the precursor to the ACT. </p>
<p>My ulitmate goal is that he feels great about himself and doesn’t compare of judge himself by his siblings. The problem is that the other 3 all have these BIG reputations where we live and I feel like everyone is watching him to see what he is going to do. I hate it! You are right…people just don’t understand their comments. He is often called by his brother’s name at school…</p>
<p>momofthreeboys - good advice and yes, he is already looking at some CA schools…didn’t think about CO…great idea - he loves to ski! I guess the key here is to just encourage him to ignore the comments, keep his list of school choices quiet, and explore some of the other schools that are not so ‘high profile’ but just as worthy in giving him the education and experiences that he desires.</p>
<p>This is a tough–.
- I strongly suggest your son take the ACT. It is a different type of test and I do think its helpful to kids with certain learning styles (kinectic??). I thought that was a bunch of mumbo jumbo, until my own kid had much better success with the ACT than SAT. Considering schools which are SAT/ACT optional is also a good way to go. But don’t rule out the ACT test, you may be pleasantly surprised.</p>
<ol>
<li> Talk up different types of school. Some kids really like the atmosphere of large state universities like U Mich, Ohio State etc. So even if he is not sure what he wants, he can have his “school friends” believe that he’s not interested in the Harvard/Duke route and wants to be in a different environment.<br></li>
</ol>
<p>we were in a bit of a similar situation. D # 1 at Ivy–d # 2 at SUNY. Though d # 2 is doing great and really enjoys her experience, I think she has a little less self confidence due to her sister being an Ivy grad- or worse she things we have less confidence in her abilities. It is a tough situation to be in.</p>
<p>i’m reading the posts that were put up since I wrote this response. His m/v are 1260 ? That’s not low. Not stellar- but definitely a very solid score. Not everyone gets 1400/2100 on these tests.<br>
As he loves skiing- maybe it’s not a bad idea to check out colorodo college or other sports oriented State U’s where skiing is an important component as well as having solid academics with a strong business department. A large state U will give him the opportunity to go pre med or business. He’ll decide after he gets though a semester of two of college under his belt. A school like Babson may not work if he decides to go the pre-med route.
I don’t know about the skiing aspects- but UNC? U Wisconsin? U Mich?
Those are all solid schools and many kids would be ecstatic to be able to attend them.</p>
<p>If Colorado sounds interesting look also at the University of Denver (and then there is always Boulder). I have only one caution tale about Boulder we have literally had dozens of friends send their kids to Boulder and not one of them has finished up there. I personally like Colorado College first and the University of Denver better than Boulder for kids with Colorado-interest. If he doesn’t know what he wants to study the smaller schools are generally easier to “find oneself” as you aren’t entering into a specific course of study and have a year or two of gen-ed/liberal studies stuff.</p>
<p>I feel for you, my D1, graduating this year, is a teacher’s dream student - hard working, accomplished, dedicated, top of her class. D2 is also very smart but not nearly as dedicated or passionate about school. We actually had an opportunity to move that put us in a different HS district within our county so D1 stayed at hers that she loves and D2 started at the rival high school. I think she was excited to not have to worry about teachers expecting her to be like her big sister in sports or school and she has flourished at the new school. Academics are still not her passion but she’s so much more comfortable in her own skin. S3 will likely go to D2s highschool and I’m not worried because although they too are very different, many teachers never realize they are related (common last name). </p>
<p>It’s so tough though when the oldest blazes a trail that intimidates the younger ones. For us it helped too when D1 stopped and showed D2 some areas where she has had to work harder, that not everything was a cake walk, and there are some areas where D2 outshines her. That really helped when D2 was still in middle school admist the mean girls and usual early teen self doubts.</p>
<p>I think there is a bit of a misconception with large state U’s- but I can only speak of SUNY from experience. Students have a bunch of general ed/ liberal arts classes that they must take. They are strict with those requirements. So don’t assume that one doesn’t get a broad based educational experience at a large state U.
I’ll admit, I’m more partial to a university environment than a LAC. I just think a LAC can be too small and too confining. But I’ll admit- that is my own personal preference. My kids didn’t like the LAC environment either for the same reasons.</p>
<p>btw- i think the type of learning style i referred to in an earlier post is kinesthetic vs. visual or auditory. The ACT vs. SAT test may be more suitable for kids who have certain learning styles.</p>
<p>I have a son who recently graduated from Duke…and I realize that following Harvard and Duke is a lot for your lovely third child. But in spite of what he has to endure following his sibs, not everyone in the USA is as preoccupied with the tip top status colleges as certain pockets of America…get him out into parts of the USA where other colleges “count”…take a week’s trip and have fun visiting and absorbing with him. Most Liberal Arts colleges would be thrilled to get him and many are delivering a better education than more famous colleges. </p>
<p>Where I live, people think Duke is a “state school with a good basketball team” but that VA Tech is tops. And to tell the truth, my VA Tech nephew just landed a dream job in DC as an engineer with a very average GPA while my Duke son is still searching for his next move. Networking is part of the college experience, too in your adult life and some colleges have incredible cache in the work force with job connections. Try getting a job for instance with any military school background…VMI grads often have excellent entree into masters programs with SATs from high school for starters lower than your sons. OK…I am not pushing the Citadel or VMI but my Dad is a VMI grad and like many…he didn’t pay for his graduate degree.<br>
My alma mater Furman, may be easier to enter but delivers a very rigorous education in a beautiful place. You may not realize that Greenville, South Carolina is a booming town with many people speaking French (michelin) and German (bmw) but it is a place that would welcome any son from the North like yours…they would love to diversify geographically. My friends went to Harvard, Duke, UVA, Yale, Vandy, Stanford, U of Chicago, Northwestern, etc for grad school from Furman. And those are just my friends I can name who attended my wedding from Furman. Only a couple of them had SATs over 1400 when they started undergrad studies. Have you looked at the University of Richmond? </p>
<p>I would definitely think outside the box and pull together a list of colleges that would be thrilled to get your son, as well as a couple of reaches.<br>
Is your son willing to go to the Midwest? Is he willing to go to sporty LACs? They do exist…Wake Forest is very sporty and a very tough school with very good outcomes. Bowdoin is one of our favorites, Colby is a place where you will get a great education among great people, what about Virginia Tech or Clemson if he is interested in a department of study where they excell…they have broad curriculums? </p>
<p>You can’t change the atmosphere at your high school where the top 25 schools have taken over the dreams of his peers, but you can expose him to the reality that many regions in the USA value graduates from the colleges that are also excellent.</p>
<p>I have a suggestion for your son: Colorado State Universtiy in Ft. Collins. Large state university, many choices of major so he would be able to decide later, such a great college town, and skiing nearby! I visited my D there last June, and no kidding, I would move there tomorrow if circumstances were right. I just loved it. There is an amazing vibe there, everyone so friendly and happy. This could just be a different sort of choice for him–I’m off to Colorado, everybody! </p>
<p>He could also look at University of Colorado, but I like CSU better. UMich not a good choice for him to apply out-of-state with 1260 SAT, and it’s not near skiing either.</p>
<p>Why don’t you try being honest and direct with him. Not “You’re never going to get in to Duke or Harvard,” but "I sense that you are feeling a lot of pressure to live up to your sibs. That’s totally unfair to you. Let’s talk about how to handle it and what we can do . . . "</p>
<p>As I see it, the kid has four quite separate problems:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>What can he do to improve his test scores enough to make him a viable candidate for top-level colleges? (Understanding that even if he does that, it doesn’t guarantee success, or that that’s what he really wants for himself.)</p></li>
<li><p>Where does he want to go to college that he CAN get into, at the match level and at the safety level? Every kid has to face this issue at this point in his life.</p></li>
<li><p>How does he deal with the expectations of friends, classmates, teachers? Most of whom, of course, are not being malicious at all – they see him as a bright, successful student, and why shouldn’t he follow his siblings’ footsteps? They have no idea his test scores are an issue, and probably no idea they are making him uncomfortable.</p></li>
<li><p>How does he deal with his own expectations, sense of inadequacy?</p></li>
</ol>
<p>All of those things are things that can be discussed rationally and openly. HE knows he has those problems, YOU know he has those problems, and he SHOULD know you know he has those problems. Not talking with him about them runs the risk that he thinks (a) you’re not discussing it because you’re so disappointed in him, (b) you think he can’t handle the truth, and/or (c) it’s completely on him to deal with things.</p>
<p>OP: I think you are doing an awesome job.</p>
<p>Hugs to your son. If you keep stressing how much you love him (which I know you do) eventually all will be well. You can tell him that people think inside a box, which is boring, predictable thinking, and innovation, creativity and perseverance are the predictors of success.</p>
<p>Find what he loves most and help him go for it. </p>
<p>That’s all anyone needs.</p>
<p>I am going to throw Bard into the mix.</p>
<p>Yes, find those SAT optional schools and don’t look back.</p>
<p>It’s tough with such high achieving siblings, but helping your boy find HIS special niche is such a wonderful life lesson that in the end I know all will be well.</p>
<p>As far as the surrounding comments, I understand because when our two applied from a small town, the school and general community didn’t know about schools in-between Harvard/Yale (hadn’t heard much of “Princeton”) which they worshiped and the state publics and CC’s with which they felt comfortable. When S-1 got into Amherst College (#1 or #2 top Liberal Arts College as per USNWR for years) most people said they didn’t know much about UMass Amherst but they wished him well.</p>
<p>Since you can’t change the knowledge base of the surrounding community, all you can really do is remind your son that the world is a HUGE place beyond the confines of the town he grew up in. Part of that realization is that your family is excited about a wide variety of colleges, not just the 2 his elder sibs attend. </p>
<p>Try running a search for the word “fit” here at CC and see if some threads interest you to read; even show some to Son if you think appropriate. There is an important theme throughout CC that there’s a right “fit” of college for each individual. Some of the books mentioned by other posters above in this thread indicate that way of thinking. </p>
<p>Our third child took the advice of the above posters – went into his own field (Screenwriting) far from the Northeast, so he’s in California at a school with SAT expectations that he could produce, but in a department that’s distinguished within the University. SAT’s were a factor but not THE factor in his application there. He is thriving and nobody – including his two older sibs with higher SAT’s – would dream of measuring him by the same yardstick. </p>
<p>Your challenge is to find a wider range of types of schools; get him enthused along with you; invest in a tutor plus a serious setaside time for tudy/prep time before the next sitting to bring up his SAT or ACT scores to maximize his chances everywhere. </p>
<p>If you can enlist the voices of the older brother and sister to express what they know about a wide range of colleges (if they do), their encouragement will mean more to him even than yours. You know your family, but if you can enlist them in this campaign to bring up his spirit, they’re potentially a great alliance.</p>
<p>Your youngest is already demonstrating a different path, and you can point out to him that in word and deed you support her enthusiastically. You’re walking the walk as a parent who supports 3 different pathways and will be excited for him when he comes up with the 4th pathway within your family.</p>
<p>There are so many ways for him, from “Colleges that Change Lives” to a joyful experience at a state college with features that enthuse him. I’m not sure he needs to leave the Northeast to find that, BTW, so don’t assume he has to apply only West of the Mississippi to get some breathing room here.</p>
<p>And finally, on those test scores: I would get him a private tutor to improve his SAT or ACT scores, check into the SAT Prep section of College Confidential; look up the xiggi method there. A lot of improving the scores pertains to understanding how to take the test. He should also work at SAT or ACT practice books at home and use the practice tests on the Collegeboard website before taking the test the last time. Points come up with practice and preparation before the test sitting. When I see a writing score as you mention, I can almost guess he doesn’t know the expected paragraph structure of THAT test (explained on the College Board site and test prep books) or read examples of the difference between an essay worth 6 vs 8 vs l0 points. On the writing, the multiple choice counts heavily, but he can study hard for subject-verb agreement or identify which grammar issues he carries to bring up points. This can all be done without grinding him down over it, I believe. The other choice of SAT-optional colleges is excellent as well.</p>
<p>ETA: Hooray, Mythmom, I’ll see you Bard and raise you a Hampshire. There are so many ways to find a happy next 4 years. Props to JHS, too, for getting to the heart of the matter, recommending an honest conversation about the basic feelings.</p>
<p>As for expectations, I really think that every time someone says to him he has to go to an ivy, he should respond, ‘actually I’m seriously considering going to school in Colorado/Ca./Fl./Canada/UK/wherever…’ He needs to put the idea out there that the ivys may be great but he wants something totally different that he can’t get from the ivys. If he says it enough, people will at least start to consider the idea and it will make his life much easier as a senior; it will be rougher if people are expecting him to go ivy and he announces next year that he’s going to Univ. of Florida and then has to deal with people who are rude enough to say ‘i thought you were smart enough for the ivys.’ Anything he says then will seem like a justification. (I’m not saying he should have to justify anything but the reality of HS is that sometimes students and teachers just cannot let their preconceived notions/expectations go and it’s hard for a younger sibling.)</p>
<p>I’m a middle child and I’m married to a middle child and I have close friends and professional colleagues who are middle children. My sympathies to your son. Folks like us have a lot of work to do to identify their “place” in the world.</p>
<p>Agree that a candid conversation is in order where you acknowledge that other people expect things from him and that must get old and tiring. And remind him that you only expect him to be true to himself. And that you love him for who he is and not what he accomplishes. And tell him that your job for the next 10 months is to help him find a couple of colleges which he will love and where they will love him back and where, with a lot of hard work (all college is hard work) he will thrive and do well.</p>
<p>And you can tell him that if those colleges have famous sports teams or great ice cream or a well known poetry slam or produce more award-winning oboists than any other college in America- that’s good enough for you, as long as it has the elements he’s looking for and you can afford it. You are not looking to impress his teachers or his friends or your friends or his siblings- you are going to help him identify the schools where he will thrive and really challenge himself.</p>
<p>Lather, rinse, repeat.</p>
<p>There are hundreds of colleges that would love to admit your son. Your job is to help him weed through that list and find the ones that he’d love to attend.</p>
<p>I have not read all the posts, but I had a DD who was the star of the school, academically, math/science/language awards, athletically MVP of all three varsity sports, team captain, played internationally etc. The school loved to brag about her, D3 says there was not a single week where D2 was not mentioned at the assembly for some great thing or another.</p>
<p>D3 is a confident person and chose to differentiate herself from both of her talented older sisters, D1/D2 were math/science, D3 had chosen to embrace humanities. D1/2 were athletes, D3 would not play any sport her sister did- coaches cajoled her to join team A or B, to no avail. The worst, though, would be things like the school cross country run, D2 won it every single year, D3 walked it to avoid comparisons. D3s classmates still had to spend time telling her how amazing D2 is- why??? why do you tell me something I know???</p>
<p>Anyway, D2 had options for great famous schools back east and out west. D3 chose to apply to one small LAC with merit aid (so not on the “radar” of famous tippy top schools), got in and loves it. Once again, there is simply no comparison, this is her FIT and she told every one. no one could say, “oh didn’t you get it” D3 researched schools, wanted a private small school and applied only there, rolling admissions, in in October with their top $10k+/annually merit award.</p>
<p>So, no comparison to be made. I tell my kids they are incomparable, but people are LAME!!! I can understand the obtuseness of students, but I would expect more of teachers!!</p>
<p>Schools with merit aid for 1200+ SAt:
Baylor (TX)
Whitworth (WA)
Chapman (SoCal)
just to name a few
check out these privates that may offer merit aid
University of San Francisco
University of San Diego
Point Loma
Gonzaga
Pacific Lutheran</p>
<p>Or these more famous privates that may not offer aid but could be exciting
USC (got your sports there)
Reed
Lewis & Clark
Whitman</p>
<p>Unusual publics:
University of Victoria
University of British Columbia</p>
<p>I would not bother to pay OOS fees in CO/CA if for the same money or perhaps less after merit, he could choose one of those smaller LACs</p>
<p>Remind him, too, that it is his life, not his HS friend’s life and there is no scoreboard in life, even if others choose to be impressed by things he has done or not, he is the one who lives with it, who must derive satisfaction from it; he needs to do what he wants, not what others think is cool. True empowerment will be in making a choice that fits him- he is as smart as the others (like mine) but perhaps not as driven for grades (like my D3) so why put himself in a situation filled with people like them, he doesn’t want to be like them!!!</p>
<p>My D3 took her weeder course for her major, hated it as it was so difficult, then aced it, was one of two As and has been the darling of the department ever since. She is having a wonderful time in most of her classes and experiences. I think she is actually enjoying it more than her sister at the famous school as that kid had to work hard all the time, with her usual drive to stay ahead of the pack.</p>
<p>Okay reality check from a parent of 2 average students. His SAT’s are not that low so he will have some great options. Maybe not Harvard but still pretty impressive. I came from a family of eight kids and the oldest went to the Naval Academy. All around amazing kid. For my parents it was like hitting it out fo the park right from the start. From there on down we were all pretty much average students, but at the end of the day all 8 graduated from college and all 8 have successful careers. I never felt the need to live up to my oldest sibling, my parents really took his success in stride and made as big a deal out of his graduation as they did mine from a state university.</p>