<p>I have been following this thread as someone who never liked the Greek system for just these reasons - I have a hard time with how kids are invited to pledge and also with the humiliations that can go with the pledging process. My S however, is interested in exploring Greek options next year, on campuses with a significant but minority Greek presence (like 30%).</p>
<p>Clearly there are many CCers who found their own Greek experiences to be very positive - enough to hope their S or D also goes Greek. I would be interested in seeing some posts from moms or dads who were Greek themselves, but now have a child experiencing this rejection. Does it make you rethink your attitudes on the Greek system? </p>
<p>Also, does a Soph who tries again next year have a hard time emotionally, as other sophs (their peers) are already in and may be particpating in the choices/initiations?</p>
<p>I rushed my first year at UVa, and pledged a house. I also deactivated my third year, in disgust. Long story--but in a nutshell we had always been the "oddball" house full of sisters that made significant academic and leadership contributions to the school. We were the only house that took Engineers, Nurses, and Architecture students deemed "too busy" by the other houses. We had the first female prez of CLAS and the first female prez of the A school in our house. We also took second and third year rushees and we were also one of two houses that took Jewish girls. Yes--back in the 80s, being Jewish would get you bounced from almost every house. One of my roommates was Jewish and rushed with us. I cut every house that cut her, which didn't leave me many either--but how could I join a house that wouldn't take one of my good friends based on a religious belief? I came to realize that even if my little piece of the system was different, it was part of a larger whole that was quite ugly. The more I got involved with ISC and the more my sorority tried to morph into the others, the more disgusted I got. And quite frankly, that's too much money to waste and too much integrity to lose. What finally put me over the edge was rush my third year. It is just as ugly on the other side when you are trying to defend someone that everyone else wants to cut.</p>
<p>My husband joined a fraternity and had a much different experience. The fraternities had more distinct personalities, and their rush was different. None of the making the rounds and cutting. Of course we had dry rush, and the fraternities didn't. ;)</p>
<p>Curiously enough, when my son was looking for schools he always asked what kinds of things were available for Non-Greeks. Big Greek schools were scratched off the list. His University does have some fraternities and sororities, but more people don't join than do. They have rush the sophomore year. He actually has some friends in a frat, and said he "might" consider joining, but he's already set up his social agenda. If he doesn't join, that's fine with me.</p>
<p>It seems that today the Greeks at many schools are coming under fire. They have poor relations with the University and the surrounding communities in some cases, drinking issues in others, and the hazing just scares me to death. I'm sure for every bad story there is someone having a wonderful experience with the Greek system--but if none of our kids join a house I'll be quite relieved.</p>
<p>Fredo, I want to begin my reply by sending big hugs to your daughter. Coming from a part of the country where Greek life is the norm at college, I can imagine how disappointed and left out she feels - 70% Greek, I also know from personal experience how YOU feel, a big hug for you too.</p>
<p>Now, for the rest of us - come on guys, aren't we overreacting just a little bit?! Fredo and her daughter understandably feel awful, but we know that this is not the end of the world for this wonderful and talented young lady. Greek life is not the source of all evil on college campuses, neither is it the answer to freshman social life for everyone. It is what it is - a group of college social clubs that vary from campus to campus in their selectivity/exclusivity, atmosphere, and relevance to the overall social scene. They seem to have in common an abundance of alcohol, a tendency for their members to do stupid things that they might not want to remember when they are 35, but remember with nostalgia at 55, and a great deal of bonding which can be a very positive force for a lonely teenager. </p>
<p>I will definitely have my daughter read this thread, in chronological order, to drive home the message that going through rush is taking a chance, that the most difficult rush processes are the ones we are the most familiar with - where girls and guys go down BEFORE FRESHMAN ORIENTATION, and go through this weeding process! You can have a happy ending, or you may go through an unhappy learning process. It would probably behoove you (I am not trying to attack or belittle your daughter, Fredo, just drawing some conclusions from her experience for other kids out there thinking about rushing) to get to know as many girls as you can in sororities, both to increase your chances of a bid, and to decide if the whole sorry business is for you.
Kiddo, if you're out there reading this, you began your college search with no Greeks as a criterion, and ah, ended up at a school with 50% of eligible students going Greek - it is not necessarily good or bad, it is a choice, you need to learn as much as you can about the system at your school, and decide if that choice is for you. You know I decided NO in my day, but I already belonged to the largest, most exclusive coed frat on campus, I didn't need anymore friends. Good luck.</p>
<p>Cangel,
The great thing about our school is that no freshman is allowed to go greek (the have to wait until fall /winter rush giving them a chance to see if it is for them. </p>
<p>while there is a large grrek presence on campus, most of the activities and events given by the fratrs/sorors are pretty much open to everyone</p>
<p>"The rejected face unnecessary trauma; but, worse (or at least to my way of thinking it is), the accepted learn that it is socially acceptable to inflict it."</p>
<p>Mini, You make it sound as if they enjoy it or don't care because they have endured it themselves. I hated Rush on all sides. I felt it was an unfair way to evaluate someone, but unfortunately you do have to evaluate because there are more girls than there are spots and each sorority has a unique mix of personalities, priorities and values. We didn't interview each individual with the intent of wanting them as our friend. We looked at how they would fit in with the whole and how they would contribute. In the process, good people get passed over, partly because it is such a contrived way to get to know someone and partly because there are a limited amount of spots. For all the bad things said about Fraternities, they at least know how to do Rush in a more humane way. Can we please just keep the criticisms of Rush from becoming a global condemnation of sororities?</p>
<p>Sybbie, thanks, that has been my impression. I hope if our girls want to rush that they are successful and happy, if they choose not to rush that is great, too. I ache for Fredo's daughter, and as Lizschup says rush is probably the absolute worst thing about sororities. I would just as soon K not rush, for a number of reasons, but I have emphasized the importance of getting out and meeting people early on, becoming involved in campus life, and making friends everywhere you can - in activities, in the dorm, in class. I have sent you a PM.</p>
<p>This thread really tore at my heart. I know what rejection for one's child feels like (though not concerning sororities).</p>
<p>Mini - I tend to be on your side (don't flame me, other guys! Apparently many of you have had great experiences with sororities).</p>
<p>Bowdoin has done away with frats and sororities and taken over the houses. It now assigns people to these "social houses" randomly. The students do NOT have to live there, nor do they have to "party" there - they can go to events at any social house, as most events are open -- it's just a bit like the Yale residential college system (only without HAVING to reside there). </p>
<p>My niece actually doe svery littlle with her social house, other than community service projects. I see more and more NE schools doing away with frats and sororities.</p>
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<p>My niece actually doe svery littlle with her social house, other than community service projects. I see more and more NE schools doing away with frats and sororities<<</p>
</blockquote>
<br>
<p>That is the downside of the administration trying to legislate/fiat students' social lives. Don't misunderstand me, I'm not at all keen on frats and sorors, basically I think they are a bad idea. But, trying to tell a bunch of 18-20 how they are going to socialize, how could anyone who has ever been a parent think that would be successful, maybe over a long time, but in the short term? Look at Williams - they get so much bad press about out of control drinking, which to me is one of worst things about frat life, doing away with frats didn't do away with drinking.
Colleges and universities are really in a Catch-22 with this issue, we as parents need to have long heart-to-hearts with our kids before we send them off, about all the ups and downs and trade-offs of college social life, arm them to make good decisions.</p>
<p>The residential houses of Yale and Rice make more sense to me than Bowdoin's approach, simply because they intensify and codify the dorm experience, rather than sort of superimpose this "artificial" social life. I cannot express well why it strikes me as being different, it just somehow does feels different - maybe because the kids are together all the time, maybe because it "has always been that way"? I'm sure there are students at Yale and Rice that never feel comfortable with their fellow house members, just by bad luck of the draw.</p>
<p>I completely understand where you are coming from Cangel - but honestly, there is no legislating social life by fiat. Students are merely assigned to a house, precisely as they are assigned to a residential college, only they aren't forced to live there. Don't get me wrog - my niece has enjoyed the service projects, etc., but she also socializes many, many other ways (with her sports team, with some of the voluntary clubs she's in, etc).</p>
<p>Oh no, I didn't mean they were continuing, I just meant that when the Greek orgs were disbanded the admin tried to substitute something, apparently with mixed results. DD looked into Bowdoin a little, and it seemed like a great school with a wonderful student life (who wouldn't to live with 6 of your best friends in a house by the sea your senior year of college), just the "house" experiment, by all accounts was a yawn, less than successful. Maybe change like this needs lots of time, who knows?
Is there excessive drinking at Bowdoin, we didn't get that impression, at least less press if it is going on?</p>
<p>There is drinking, as there is at almost every college, but it apparently gets no press because it is not excessive. My niece does not drink at all and is still having a blast - people who DO drink respect her decision, and she has plenty of friends who don't.</p>
<p>"The rejected face unnecessary trauma; but, worse (or at least to my way of thinking it is), the accepted learn that it is socially acceptable to inflict it."</p>
<p>Mini, You make it sound as if they enjoy it or don't care because they have endured it themselves. I hated Rush on all sides. I felt it was an unfair way to evaluate someone, but unfortunately you do have to evaluate because there are more girls than there are spots and each sorority has a unique mix of personalities, priorities and values."</p>
<p>Okay, but how does that serve the university's ends OR those of the student, or serve ends that couldn't be better served in other ways? I am willing to grant that the damage done - not only to those rejected, but those who do the rejecting - may be inadvertent, unintended, or not well-thought-out, but it doesn't make it any better because of it. You're saying you hated RUSH, on all sides, you agree that it is a contrived way to get to know someone, you agree that it hurts, and yet you still think it is worthy of your participation. You must think that sororities are very good things indeed.</p>
<p>Since I lack the proper double-x chromosome to be able to evaluate that, I guess I'll have to leave that for you.</p>
<p>Mini,
The end that it serves is that it makes social life at a large university a little more manageable- not so overwhelming. I know everyone loves to bring up getting involved in an extracurricular but not all kids have one. Yes, you could meet those needs through other methods like residential systems, but I don't think any large state schools are going to embrace that idea anytime soon. Yes, I do think sororities CAN be worth going through all that for. I have posted before in the endless fraternity thread about my experience which was exceptionally good. It is not for everyone and not all experiences are positive. There is a unique bonding that takes place in sororities that I don't think you can find on a dorm floor, living in an apartment with several people or in extra curriculars. It is not a forced friendship and you certainly don't end up liking everyone. That is not to say that it is better-just that it is unique.</p>
<p>I shall admit upfront that I LOATHE sororities..so I'm not exactly unbiased. </p>
<p>When there are 25,000 students on campus, even if two thirds become Greek, there are lots of people who aren't. But when you go to one of the "pretty, white and Greek" schools, with an undergraduate student body under 3,500 and more than two thirds of students join--the situation at Fredo's daughter's school-- there aren't as many options. </p>
<p>I learned to LOATHE sororities as a high school student in the Midwest. I watched what happened to kids a few years ahead of me at my high school when they went off to college. A lot of whether you got a bid was determined by your high school reputation. There are SCADS of people who are legacies and many more who know people who are already in sororities from their high school days. </p>
<p>Fredo's daughter may well have walked into a situation in which she was competing against girls who attended high school with girls who are already in the sorority. Even when they don't actually know them, many fall into the group of "people we can check out"--I mean some of those rushing will have mutual friends with members of the sorority. They will have made a point of getting to know some of the girls in the sorority as soon as they arrived on campus. "Hi, I'm Cara, I'm Annie Smith's sister. Annie's told me SO MUCH about you. She LOVED working on the high school yearbook with you." There are some "pay backs" involved too--I mean the real life younger sister of one of the brothers in a fraternity may be rushing while the real life younger brother of one of the sorority sisters is rushing that frat. The bottom line is that lot of the spaces are actually unofficially taken before the first rush party. </p>
<p>I'm sorry your daughter's hurting, but she should realize that there's a good chance nothing she did during rush mattered all that much if she didn't have an advocate in the sorority before rush started. Undoubtedly, many of those who were asked to join did. </p>
<p>And, again, just personal opinion, there's NO reason why any school with fewer than 1,000 students in a class should HAVE a Greek system.</p>
<p>jonri makes a good point: at a big state school of 30,000+, if the rush process doesn't work out, you can hide pretty well about the 20,000+ who are not Greek. At a small school, there's less room to hide. </p>
<p>Cangel: you make a good point (as does jonri) that one of the ways to have a successful rush is to meet as many girls ahead of time. The process can be tougher if you're shy, retiring or quiet. I have heard time and time again that the reason girls get cut is simply because noone knows much about the rushee or really remembers her. Finding a way to stand out really helps as well.</p>
<p>My own rush experience was a mixed one. I rushed fall frosh year and dropped out when the house I had my heart set on cut me (ironically, it's the same house my D wanted). In spring of soph year, a new sorority was colonized on campus and I decided to join so I could help create the type of sorority I wanted. I was happy in that sorority and made a few friends but I think I probably could also have stayed independent and it would have been fine. </p>
<p>But I had been through the experience of a bad rush and I tried really hard to prep my D for what might happen. I didn't think it would be as tough as it was - I have to admit that that took me by surprise. She's doing okay now and trying to keep a positive mindset. She's obviously disappointed but trying to accept that this has happened for a reason. </p>
<p>I still think sororitites can be a good thing. Rush is horrible - no getting around it. But the bonding experience is a pretty powerful thing and if you find the right house (it's all about the fit - does that sound familiar?), it can be a wonderful experience. Rush is just a risk with no guarantees. </p>
<p>Thanks for all the positive thoughts and hugs.</p>
<p>As a woman who rushed sororities in the 70s, when Jewish girls could only join a Jewish sorority I know the feelings that rush brings. So many hugs going your way. My daughter will be rushing next fall and I dread the process. I too remember the feelings that I clicked with a certain house, only to find that they didn't accept Jewish girls. I know that sororities are FAR more open now....we pledged girls of different backgrounds even then...but the premise of rush is finding people that you can be sisters with after knowing them 15 minutes is ridiculous. So, Fredo to your daughter hugs and the knowledge that she will be successful because she is a wonderful caring person. If your daughter's school has informal rush (it used to be done during spring when I was in school) your daughter might consider that if she still wants to join. </p>
<p>Now I must remember all these wise words for next September when my daughter (who will be a 2nd semester Freshman because she started Spring semester) rushes.</p>
<p>Thanks, Texastaximom, for your post. Your loyalty to your roommate and concern about excluding people really resonates with me - as a person, and as a person who also happens to be Jewish. </p>
<p>It is interesting to see all these posts from people who like the system but don't like rush. </p>
<p>Can anyone tell me how frats do it? Is it very different? I realize that drinking alone will make it different for wet frats, but how else is it different from the sororities rush?</p>