<p>ok i guess i can see some positive things about frats...i just dont know about binge drinking and such things, but i wouldnt mind joing one that the son of momwithquestion is in.</p>
<p>Why do I think hazing is good? Because it ensures that everyone in the frat wants it badly enough. It helps to ensure that everyone who is in will be dedicated - if they toughed it through hazing, they obviously want to be in with me. It also helps bring a pledge class togather, as long as its done correctly (Don't believe me? Then why does the military use hazing to bring units togather?). I liken it to water polo summer practices during high school (effectively our training camp) - hard, brutal, but a good experience in retrospect. It weeded out those who didn't want to be on the team badly enough to care, and made those who got through it a closer, tighter knit unit. Same concept with hazing in frats, as long as it doesn't get ridiculous or disgusting. If you want to think that I need to "prove" myself, go ahead. I personally think that intelligently designed hazing is an effective way to bring people togather and weed out the people who don't care that much - ensuring dedicated fraternity members. A lot of people don't agree with me, and I can respect that - there are plenty of valid reasons not to haze.</p>
<p>I'll concede, to some degree, the elitism - I enjoy knowing that I have done/do things that other people couldn't and can't. I definately think I am tougher and smarter than most people, and have the evidence to back that up. If that makes me a bad person, then so be it. I have zero problems admitting that - elitism isn't bad as long as its based on the right things and you can back your talk up.</p>
<p>FYI, I'm going to be pledging a fraternity that doesn't haze at all (not that anoyone really gets away with that much hazing up here). I have nothing to prove; I certainly could have rushed/pledged the few frats that haze even mildly up here if I had something to prove. Instead, I rushed and am going to pledge the frat I fit in best at.</p>
<p>EDIT: Just to be clear, and in case you didn't read my previous post, "normal" hazing is the kind involving booze/physical exertion (running, pushups, whatever)/mental or emotional toughness (talking trash to pledges, etc). Intelligently designed hazing is hard but keeps a solid saftey margin so as not to push anyone over the edge or anything. I'm certainly not advocating dangerous levels of hazing (i.e. making a pledge chug a handle or something stupid like that, making pledges run 20 miles in the cold, being so mentally harsh that someone cracks). There is a safe level, and as long as done correctly I stand by my statement that hazing is an effective deterrent to people who want to join just for the parties/who aren't really interested in/dedicated to the frat.</p>
<p>Lucifer, I would not call activities like physical training hazing at all, and can agree with you about the benefits of that. What I consider hazing I see no point in whatsoever - I don't see what it proves to anyone if you eat a stick of butter covered in tabasco sauce except that you're desperate to fit in.</p>
<p>Riley, you're absolutely right. Had I gone to any other school I looked at before deciding last year, with the possible exception of UVA, the chances of me pledging a fraternity would be almost none. I would not do it at northeast/big city schools because there are so many alternatives (nighclubs, bars, other big parties) that there is no point - with the exception of the great living circumstances and food some frats provide relative to dorm living and cafeteria food.</p>
<p>But here in the rural south, other than mostly unsuccessful events the university holds (they had the date doctor come speak today, that was pretty interesting), there is NOTHING to do. Good bands and DJ's would practically never go anywhere near Lexington if it weren't for the frats. Over 70% of the population is involved in Greek Life and almost all the big events - homecoming, holiday weekend, even parents weekend - are controlled by the frats. You argue that it is the school's fault that it does not offer suitable alternatives. I disagree. I think the school has much more important things to focus on than throwing parties and being an alternative to frats. And if they did start throwing parties, I doubt they would come even close to the frat parties, which are improved by the competition between the 15 frats or so for attendance. I am an officer in a school-funded organization that offers alternatives to frat activities and while those are fun to attend, they rarely get the attendance good frat parties get and are best only as a change of pace.</p>
<p>Put simply, in the rural south, frats are necessary for a school to have a good social scene. That is why I would be very much surprised if schools like mine ever decided to get rid of frats, their value would plummet as people would not be able to bear living here for four years with such a poor social life.</p>
<p>lucifer - What is the role of frats/sororities on a college campus compared with the role of a military? I don't think frats/sororities are facting coups or need to protect themselves from life threatening attacks......right? I won't debate the techniques used in the military to establish a chain of command, train a group of individuals to act/react as "one" and/or establish that willingness to risk one's own life for country, but, surely the same need for mind and behavior control is not on a college campus. Ay! Don't we want the complete opposite of that type of thinking on campus???? What is it that you expect from your brothers - sounds like much more than friendship and a group to identify with. I hope you are not disappointed. Do you want your brothers to die for you, die for the frat? I am so concerned about your comments!</p>
<p>Intelligently designed hazing to ensure dedication to a social group???? Is that reasonable or rational? I suppose that kind of thinking is what has led to the deaths from hazing. Students believe they can design hazing activities to keep pledges just under the safety line but they cannot control for everyone's individaul response to physical or mental stress. Or, they just want to see how "dedicated" the pledge actually is. </p>
<p>There is never a positive to elitism, lucifer......a real man or "brother" looks down only to pick someone else up.</p>
<p>Dima343 - you have my sympathies for the environment you are in. If 70% of students are in Greek life and there is nothing else to do - well, you certainly can't be faulted for joining the Greeks. As with my own son, I would not want you to sit at home waiting for NYC to come to you! I hear what you are saying about entertainment from the school. I think it is only the biggest universities that are able to sustain an interesting social life. While visiting WM recently I found the campus quite dead at night, the list of daily events limited to an a capella event. I would be miserable mysefl. I wish you luck with this school - are you happy enough to stay there?</p>
<p>You know...frats are one of those things where I just don't really 'get it', so to speak. I've thought about it and I've read comments in this thread and comments elsewhere and all of that still never manages to answer my questions. I can't really find a reason for someone wanting to join a frat except for the obvious-but-dismissed reasons: partying and elitism. </p>
<p>People will say that they join for the close friendships, but you can make close friendships and just as many (nobody has 70 "best friends", don't delude yourself) by other means and many people do. Unless of course you are for some reason incapable of getting people to befriend you simply for the sake of simple friendship and not because you're both members of the same organization and you're therefore "supposed" to be friends. People will then also say that they were friends with the guys in the frat before joining and that's why they joined, which implies that in order to continue being friends with them you have to join (being friends without joining doesn't seem to be an option) which makes me question the initial "friendship" and brings us to elitism again. And let's not even begin to pretend that you can't do community service by yourself if you are so inclined.</p>
<p>So either I'm missing something here or that's really all there is and people just like to pretend otherwise.</p>
<p>I never said hazing should be done as hard in fraternities as it is in the military; that said, it serves the same purpose in both - assuring that people are dedicated to their unit and each other. Hazing isn't what instills a "chain of command" - it is what forces a group of people (be they pledges or marines in training) togather and lets them know that, under pressure, they can rely upon one another to deliver. Do I want to know that my fraternity brothers have my back no matter what? Absolutely. Again, the "die for you, die for your frat" is a matter of degree, not type. I know that when I join next semester I'll be willing to sacrifice for my future brothers, and I'd hope (and think) they'd do the same for me. </p>
<p>Deaths from hazing result from a variety of things. Some involve ridiculous, stupid hazing that serves no purpose and is simply dangerous for the sake of being dangerous; there is a big difference between forcing pledges to do pushups and run miles and forcing them to swim freezing lakes and act as human sponges for various bodily fluids/excretions. The kind of hazing I support - the kind that tests one's mettle - need not be dangerous and is without doubt not disgusting.</p>
<p>I didn't mean to say that I hate my school. I love my college and pretty much everything about it. I thought long and hard about where I wanted to go to school and I know I made the right decision. I did it for many reasons including the location (I wanted to see what life was like outside the NE and outside big cities), and so far everything has worked out wonderful and I am very happy here.</p>
<p>One of the things I was most worried about coming here was the social life, I did not expect there to be one so far from what I considered "civilization." But thanks to the Greek System, I have been proven wrong and I love the social life here. Because of the high percentage of Greeks on campus and because there are so many frats for so few students, our Greek system is designed so there is a frat for everyone and our frats in general are not nearly as hardcore as those at big schools with smaller percentages of Greek students. This means that frat-life is not all about parties and that everyone is welcomed into at least one frat - I know of no guy, even those that stayed independent, that did not get a bid somewhere (though some did have the grades to rush so it didn't matter). Also you may not be able to have 70 best friends but how about 40 great friends (about the number of actives in a frat) and ~10 best friends (your pledge class, the people you live with). My choosing to live in a frat house next year was no different from an independent friend of mine choosing to live in a suite with some of his friends. Also, I could well be friends with frat guys without joining the frat, I have friends at several different fraternities as well as independents, but my best friends are going to be at the fraternity cause we'll be living together, eating together and organizing parties, community service, and other frat stuff together.</p>
<p>BTW, BlahDeBlah, there's not much elitism involved when pretty much everyone else is Greek too.</p>
<p>PS: I am not going to argue that vicious hazing does not occur anywhere, I'm sure it still does. I personally have not experienced it. But do you really know you're getting all the details when the media reports "hazing deaths." I'm not saying hazing deaths and serious injuries don't occur and it is absolutely horrifying when they do and I completely disagree with hazing as putting someone's life in danger is not the way to see if he's good enough to be a brother. What I am saying is that the media often has an anti-fraternity stance and some articles on "hazing incidences" only get one side of the story when in reality it could have been something the pledge did which no brother ever told him to do. For example, I know of one kid who got a bottle of alcohol from his frat as part of a ceremony and he and others drank it but to prove himself he decided to drink it all right away instead of taking his time and ended up getting quite sick. The frat did not encourage him to do something stupid like that and no one else did it but I am certain that had he died, all the blame would have fallen on the fraternity and it would have been called hazing.</p>
<p>your not cool enough for the frat</p>
<p>do you frats offer "better men" programs or something like that, because those seem to be pretty cool, i talked to my friend at sdsu and he said he loved it, i so them and it actually didnt seem that bad as long as your with level headed people, plus i think hazing is stupid if its degrading in anyway</p>
<p>BlahDeBlah I have always had the exact same thoughts.</p>
<p>lucifer - I understand what you are saying and I think it is like moving to Mexico or moving to France, or anywhere different - you adapt to the culture. In the South, frats are part of the culture. It sounds ilke you have given this a lot of thought and are comfortable with your environment. My sadness re: my own son joining a frat is that I feel it is a fork in the road that leads to another "person". If he had chosen a school without frats he would not spend four years entrenched in a frat culture. Every experience we have molds us, whether it be college in the south, college in Maine, the army, whatever, and shapes us in a different way. Just not what I had hoped for, for my son.</p>
<p>Actually, sorry, I meant to reply to Dima343. </p>
<p>Lucifer, you truly do scare me and only serve to reinforce my idea of who joins frats and why. Good luck to you and I hope your brothers turn out to be all that you wish them to be.</p>
<p>We have one frat here, SPE, with the "balanced man program," it just started up this year and I have my doubts about it working. They are actually recolonizing after the national organization disbanded them about 3-4 years ago, they were a regular frat back then.</p>
<p>Note:
Matt Pearlstone, a Cornell student, whose screen name is Lucifer11287, as noted on facebook, passed away on March 17, 2006 after attending a fraternity party at UVA.</p>
<p>Obituary/Guest Book
<a href="http://www.legacy.com/STLToday/DeathNotices.asp?Page=Lifestory&PersonId=17112389%5B/url%5D">http://www.legacy.com/STLToday/DeathNotices.asp?Page=Lifestory&PersonId=17112389</a></p>
<p>First off, the Lucifer11287 who posted a few days ago is now dead? Am I missing something?</p>
<p>Secondly, Dima, we have SigEp too. They actually came and talked to our sorority last night at meeting, explaing their "balanced man program", and asking us if we could recommend any of our male friends. I dunno about the whole things...</p>
<p><3,</p>
<p>Izzie Bear</p>
<p>Unless you didn't read the links........you have all the info we do. Sad, Sad story.</p>
<p>HOLY CRAP!~</p>
<p>it's HIM, who died!!!!!!!!!</p>
<p>OIMGOMGOMGOMGOGM</p>
<p>yes i go to UVa. i didnt know matt's sn is the same as his username on CC!</p>
<p>sad but true, which makes it more sad..i know so many people like this guy</p>
<p>I just can't believe I was talking to him less than a week ago and then he died an hour away from where I go to school . . .</p>
<p>But if he died of alcohol poisoning, let it be a lesson, you could never be too careful. I take pride in always being smart about my drinking but I made a mistake like that once this year too and realizing that I could have died, I am now insanely careful anytime I or any of my friends drink - I've even kept the empty bottle to remind me.</p>
<p>Please be careful guys, college should be the time of your life but not the end of you life.</p>