<p>"The SUNY schools can and does much more than cater to "marginal students" - it seems quite clear that in the context of New York higher ed options, SUNY's reputation of mediocrity and the label of "safety" needs an overhaul.</p>
<p>As a parent of a "marginal" student, I can tell you with absolute impunity that SUNY no longer caters to that group. The stats are going up at almost all the schools, and the percentage of admits is going down. There is no sure bet SUNY for "marginal" students. That said, I think CCers have an elevated idea of what "marginal" students really are. I'm talking about the dead-on average, not the average CC student.</p>
<p>SUNY Albany, Cortland, Plattsburgh, Oneonta, and New Paltz are all for average students (B to C+ averages). Anything below that you should consider a community college.</p>
<p>"I am talking about the very smart lower middle to middle class kid (with income well under $100K in today's dollars) who previously would have wound up at SUNY. Those kids are no longer at SUNY --they do not have to be."</p>
<p>I totally disagree with this statement. Those are the kids at SUNY. It's the slightly lower kids who are going to the non-elite private schools and getting some merit money. The SUNYs are all bringing up their stats. Some faster than others.</p>
<p>"It is the New Yorker making well under 200,000, but in the 100,000 range that is not able to afford the elite private, and is also not seeing a great financial aid package. I know people in this category attending Sunys today."</p>
<p>The kids in those financial ranges who also have good stats are going to SUNYs. The kids with the 1000 SATs aren't going to SUNYs anymore. They're either going to non-elite privates or they're going to CUNYs.</p>
<p>"The ones at SUNY today are not the best of the best --they are siphoned off. Back when I went to SUNY, my friends were A students with high SAT scores and regents scholarships. I had some brilliant friends attend CUNY. They had no other options. Today --I promise you these kids would be at a top school on scholarship."</p>
<p>And I promise you that the kids with those stats whose parents make too much for need-based aid and too little to pay full freight at privates ARE at SUNYs.</p>
<p>"If the young woman had higher SATs she would have had a scholarship someplace excellent. She is not a good example, because you do need the SATs to get those merit scholarships."</p>
<p>That's exactly my point. That young woman's SATs were not average, they were quite a bit above average. She would be at a SUNY and the people below her who actually are average aren't getting accepted.</p>
<p>"SUNY Albany, Cortland, Plattsburgh, Oneonta, and New Paltz are all for average students (B to C+ averages). Anything below that you should consider a community college."</p>
<p>One doesn't have to be "below" that to not gain admission to those schools. It is a crapshoot for the B kids with SAT scores between 1200.</p>
<p>The C+ students ain't getting into the 4 year SUNY's. (OK maybe the athlete, URM, or for geographic diversity) but generally speaking you need to be a solid B student with a 1000 + SAT. I was really spooked 2 years ago when GC told us one of the students with a B+ average and 1090 didn't get into Cortland. Because of the feedback I was getting on SUNY acceptances, my d did apply to Delhi as an absolute safety. She got into the SUNY 4 year schools that she did apply to- but NOTHING was a sure thing.<br>
This year Cortland had over 10,000 applications for a freshman class of 1000. We did not take any SUNY acceptance for granted. Trust me, we were happy and relieved when the acceptances from Oneonta and Cortland came in. And this is for a kid with an 89 average-National Honor Society and a 23 ACT. "Average student"--yes but Marginal student-I don't think so!!</p>
<p>"Trust me, we were happy and relieved when the acceptances from Oneonta and Cortland came in. And this is for a kid with an 89 average-National Honor Society and a 23 ACT. "Average student"--yes but Marginal student-I don't think so!!"</p>
<p>Marny what are you doing with my kid? My daughter is applying to both of those schools (Cortland thanks to you, by the way) and we're hoping for acceptance to at least one, but we know it's not a sure bet.</p>
<p>Good luck Zoosermom-Hopefully your d too will have lots of choices including Oneonta and Cortland and many other wonderful schools to choose from.</p>
<p>I gotta admit, I was pleasantly surprised by all her SUNY acceptances. Her applications went out early (early October??)- so that may have helped a bit.</p>
<p>"I gotta admit, I was pleasantly surprised by all her SUNY acceptances. Her applications went out early (early October??)- so that may have helped a bit."</p>
<p>I have to give my daughter a lot of credit. She has her applications all ready to go. The only thing still up in the air is whether to re-take the SAT.</p>
<p>Zoosermom, good luck with the apps. and with the SAT re-take if your D decides to go ahead with it. </p>
<p>Marny, you make a good point- even seen in terms of the wider picture of private and public college admissions in New York State, increased competition and selectivity - fueled by the high numbers of in-state high school graduates known as the "student boom" (especially in Long Island, Queens, and Manhattan) - has made it so admission to many of the SUNY universities and colleges can't be taken for granted as a done deal these days. </p>
<p>No wonder many of the community colleges in the SUNY system want to invest more money to greatly expand and improve their campuses.</p>
<p>
[quote]
A Democrat and Chronicle analysis of admissions data for 2005-06 indicates that 62 percent of the people who apply to many of the four-year colleges in New York state get in. However, acceptances can be as low as 13 percent at Columbia University and 27 percent at Cornell University and as high as 90 percent at Medaille and Houghton colleges.</p>
<p>One-third of the colleges whose statistics were analyzed admit fewer than 50 percent of applicants...</p>
<p>Almost 70 percent of the nation's high school class of 2005 went on to higher education, according to the U.S. Labor Department, the highest rate since the government started tracking the figure in 1959. In the Rochester area, 65,000 people of all ages are attending college. Schools including UR, Rochester Institute of Technology and the State University Colleges at Brockport and Geneseo have seen their application numbers grow in recent years...</p>
<p>In 2005, Geneseo (41 percent), Brockport (46 percent) and UR (48 percent) accepted less than half of the students who applied. Nazareth said yes to 60 percent, while St. John Fisher accepted 65 percent and RIT, 68 percent.</p>
<p>In all of western and central New York, Cornell was the most selective among the colleges surveyed.
<p>Geneseo's freshman average is a 3.8 GPA with 1300 SAT scores. That puts it, in New York state, only behind Columbia, Cornell, Cooper Union, West Point and Vassar. It's on equal terms with such prestigious schools like Colgate, U of Rochester, Hamilton, NYU, Yeshiva, Bard and Barnard. Not bad at all for a SUNY, what they need is more brand-name recognition.</p>
<p>Latest Census Bureau data gives more evidence about the gap between UpState and DownState demographic trends. The NYT article emphasizes NYC's "magnetic" attraction for college graduates over the age of 25, which makes Manhattan a city with one of the highest concentrations of educated people in America. On the whole, many New Yorkers see the rise of an affluent, educated workforce in NYC to be a beneficial demographic trend
leading to a lower crime rate that would make the area even more "chic" to college graduates who are flocking to the City in increasing numbers. </p>
<p>
[quote]
The rise in the ranks of the college-educated in the city is a blend of college graduates moving in to take high-paying jobs and residents obtaining degrees, said Joseph Salvo, director of the population division of the Department of City Planning. He noted that enrollment at the City University of New York had increased to 218,000 students in 2004, up about 12 percent from 2000...</p>
<p>New arrivals with college degrees say the city has become a more attractive place to start careers.</p>
<p>Jennifer Becker, 26, lived in Virginia after graduating from the University of Virginia, but moved to Manhattan last year when her husband, Christian, joined a law firm in the city.</p>
<p>“Part of it was just to be in the big city,” said Ms. Becker, the executive director of the university’s alumni club in New York. “I think people tend to come here for a few years and then move somewhere else.”</p>
<p>From the University of Virginia, for example, about 120 graduates head to New York to live each spring, up from about 75 just five years ago, said Carol Wood, assistant vice president for university relations. “We’re definitely seeing a lot of young grads come up here for jobs right after school,” Ms. Beck.
<p>Well, Marny, I guess for some folks, educated or not, there is no love lost between UpState and DownState New York and that kind of attitude is just part of the cultural topography of NY. While the census data in the NYT article does strike at the heart of a significant UpState-DownState demographic trend, I certainly don't think that it represents any kind of "divide" that ought to be perceived as a rift or chasm. </p>
<p>While so many affluent, highly educated folks now do want to go to the Big Apple, either to find a job or to launch their careers, money is coming into both DownState and UpState NY to aid urban lower SES and minority students who want access to quality middle and secondary school education so they will be able to have the opportunity to join the ranks of those high numbers of educated New Yorkers who boast a college degree. Whether it is enough of an investment to make an significant impact on the local economy is another question that only time will tell.</p>
<p>According to the CB, two of the New York College Board Schools slated to open in the fall of 2006, funded by the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation and the Michael and Susan Dell Foundation, are UpState: The Math, Science, & Technology Preparatory School at Seneca, in Buffalo and Northeast College Preparatory School in Rochester.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Rochester, New York is home to Xerox, Kodak, Bausch & Lomb and other companies that have helped define this city as the "World's Image Center." As the economy continues to evolve and grow more competitive, our role in the "flat world" grows ever more fragile. Institutions of higher learning in the Rochester area can no longer bear the responsibility of grooming the technological and image leaders of the future.</p>
<p>Through a series of related partnerships and experiences, we are committed to providing each student with the knowledge, skills and experiences necessary to be successful in college and in an increasingly technology-dependent society.
<p>Zoozermom, thanks for all your posts--I think it is more difficult to get into a suny today than it was a million years ago when I went. I don't have the figures to quote, but if one goes on the college board site and looks up the stats for several of the "less competitive" sunys you will find acceptance rates in the 40% range.<br>
Marny's daughter (HI MARNY!) and mine have similar stats and I am hopeful she does as well in admissions as Marny's d did, but there is no guarantee she will get in to even the less competitive sunys. We are looking at some small privates with high acceptance rates, which we think she will have a better shot at.<br>
My d has stated emphatically from the beginning that she does not want to go to a cold, snowy location, but now that her rising senior friends are starting to talk about where they are applying (many at sunys), she is warming to the idea. </p>
<p>FWIW, my youngest child, a rising junior, has grades and ec's comparable to what are commonly seen on CC. I have been implanting the Geneseo seed in her brain for over a year now...LOL!</p>
<p>Hey Chocolate- I heard the mantra for years too. No cold- No snow-No SUNY!! Well d was looking at Ugg boots yesterday. And to think she could have been going to Tampa.
Once my d was realized that so many of her friends were going upstate, be it Syracuse, Bing or Ithaca, Cortland didn't look too bad to her. At least for my d, I think knowing where her friends were going to school played a role in her decision. I'll be lurking more than I will care to admit, so let me know how things are going for your girls. Good luck.</p>