<p>Sign me up for the CC ski trip! I don't ski but I'd sure enjoy hot chocolate by the fire in the lodge as I watch the snow fall.</p>
<p>By the way, all my college friends were from small towns in upstate New York. It was a lot of fun meeting people who weren't from Long Island or the boroughs. (I say that with all due respect because I've lived in both.)</p>
<p>Oswego was a very upstate oriented school in the 60's/70's. Very different atmosphere than Bing or Albany. Maybe that's why I went to Bing so often. I couldn't get a good bagel in Oswego. Though I may not have had the most enjoyable experience there, it may have been based more on being a minority on campus and not fitting into the environment. Their were just a handful of NYC kids and even less Jewish kids on campus when I was there. Actually- I really learned alot about life from being a monority and I really got alot of insight into upstate/downstate culture battles. And many of those same battles and rivalries still hold true today- especially when you see NYS Budget battles for school districts, mass transportation etc.<br>
It's a good learning experience to live outside your comfort zone for a few years. It gives you a lot of understanding in what makes people tick and it makes you grow as a person.
Also just an aside to Cortland-- When we toured last year, I asked what the upstate/downstate ratio was, cause I thought that to be an important factor.
Our tourguide stated that the upstate kids think there are too many kids from Long Island. And the downstate kids think there are too many upstate kids. I thought it was the perfect blend!!</p>
<p>Again, I think SUNY tuition should be in the $6-8000 range. I also think existing students should be exempt from any major increases and would like to see more generous aid to offset the tuition increases for needy families. The increased funds should go a long way towards improving faculty and other resources. It seems those improvements are needed for all sites, not just some special centers. I don't think even a $8k tuition will somehow change the SUNY relationships with private schools where tuition is often in the range of $25-35k.</p>
<p>As much as it hurts, I will try to avoid anymore comments on the SUNY locations. For what it is worth, I have lived on Long Island for the past 15 years but still consider myself an outsider trying to cope. I grew up in Maryland and have also worked or gone to school in Utah, Colorado, Cleveland, Little Rock, Kansas City, LA, Chicago and Phoenix. I visited Florida once on business. I did not like it at all, but that may have been because I had a knee injury and spent the week on crutches.</p>
<p>Marny - Your daughter will just love Cortland. As you know, it is in a beautiful area of New York State, and the proximity to your other child in Cornell is priceless. Funny how no one complains about Cornell being in upstate New York. Or Dartmouth being in rural New Hampshire. </p>
<p>I can't deny that kids that go to school in Boston or D.C. have a very different experience than those in upstate New York towns. However, they also spend a lot more money being in cities ... and that's not just on tuition.</p>
<p>Cloverdale, your family is incredibly fortunate that Brown and Vassar are each costing less than SUNY. Kudos to those schools for offering such good financial aid!</p>
<p>Marny makes a good point about upstate/downstate culture. It is totally different. </p>
<p>Really, upstate feels much more similar, culturally, to the midwest. </p>
<p>I had never known anyone from "downstate" when I went to SUNY Bing (I had never even been to NYC!), and I'll be honest, it was the worst thing, for me, about SUNY Bing. I really did not relate to many of the kids there at all. Not to mention they seemed to already have their friendships established from high school (although I don't remember many of them being too crazy about each other either - really it was not a very friendly place).</p>
<p>I probably would have been much happier at Oswego or Buffalo or whatever, but at the time I thought I was doing the right thing by going to the "best" SUNY. So much for that plan...</p>
<p>That experience has greatly influenced the way I evaluate schools now. I think overall fit means a ton more than rankings.</p>
<p>Weenie- I am finally going to agree with you totally. I think the "right fit" factor also played a role in where d # 2 decided to go. She too could have gone to a # of OOS public U's including Temple-GMU-Towson etc. She just seemed relunctant. She was smarter than me and realized that alot of the kids were "local" and may go home on the week-ends. We really did hear a number of stories confirming that. (But not as much at Towson)<br>
We also heard that alot of kids stay on campus at the upstate SUNY's (Stony Brook may be a bit different) and she honestly felt very comfortable when touring around the SUNY campuses. I think even she was surprised by her positive reaction, cause this is from a kid who hates cold weather and swore to me she'd never go upstate to school.
I really did think it important to ask the upstate/downstate ratio at Cortland cause I know that it was an important factor for me while I was at Oswego. I think you can relate to that too!!
Good luck with your own search for your kid!!</p>
<p>Any insights on SUNY New Paltz? It has a higher selectivity than Geneseo or Binghamton, located at a great location (unlike most of the SUNYs), near the Catskills and relatively close to NYC and Boston. Student comments at a couple of websites are mostly positive. Seems to me, as an inquiring student, that all it needs is a better strategy to become better known.</p>
<p>New Paltz is not more selective than Binghamtom or Geneseo.</p>
<p>New Paltz was known as the "drug school" in the seventies. No idea what it's like now - but certainly less selective than Bing or Geneseo.</p>
<p>Dwincho, As Cloverdale and Twinmom point out, New Paltz is not more selective than Geneseo or Binghamtom. In terms of selectivity and "peer" HE institutions, New Paltz compares itself to SUNY Fredonia and the University of Wisconsin at Eau Claire. Yet, New Paltz is one of those SUNY's that I would keep my eye on to see what is going on because the school has undergone a lot of changes recently and does aim to strengthen its program and applicant pool, albeit on a modest scale, to compare more closely to and compete with schools like TCNJ and James Madison University in Va. Dormitories are being renovated and student resources improved to make the college more attractive and responsive to student needs. That said, it is worth noting that it primarily caters to local mid-Hudson and greater New York area students although it does seek to attract international students -- the college sees its studies abroad program as one of its strongest points. </p>
<p>Keeping in mind that Geneseo and Binghamton aim to be premier HE institutions on a national scale and have quite aggressive marketing approaches while New Paltz's aims, for the present, are much more low key and modest, you do make a good point - if it is getting favorable student reviews perhaps New Platz should be more aggressive about letting folks know about all the positive changes going on there.</p>
<p>On a national scale, 2006 was a good year for SUNY:</p>
<p>For Binghamton:
[quote]
The university received a record 26,000 applications this year.</p>
<p>"Increased applications speak to the fact that Binghamton's reputation is growing, and more and more students are considering us as an institution," said Brian Hazlett, BU's associate director of admissions. BU admits about 43 percent of those who apply, Hazlett said, adding that 90 percent of colleges admit half of their applicants. This year BU received 22,700 freshman applications, up 6 percent from last year.</p>
<p>"When you have close to 23,000 applications, it's much more fierce when you have that many students vying for those few spots," Hazlett said.</p>
<p>Transfer applications, at 3,300, were up 3 percent from last year. Applications to BU have steadily increased 5 to 7 percent over the past five years.</p>
<p>The university intensified its recruiting, especially out of state, Hazlett said. Recruiters have gone to Chicago, Florida and California and plan to increase recruitment in the Denver area, he said. BU's ranking among the nations' top public colleges and universities in publications such as U.S. News and World Report and Kiplinger's Personal Finance also helped spread the word about the university, Hazlett said.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>SUNY Geneseo got a recent nod as a "hidden gem" from the NYT:</p>
<p>While Binghamton and Geneseo top the SUNYs on Kiplinger's best value public HE list, SUNY Plattsburgh, Fredonia and New Platz (among others) also get placed in the top 100 in-state and OOS.</p>
<p>Asteriskea: I can't help believe you are somehow connected to the SUNY system. You sure do like to quote the publicity articles from SUNY administration. I suspect that the increase in applications at Binghamton reflects national trends. There are more kids going to college and online applications make it easy to apply to many schools. I will believe Binghamton is becoming more popular when I see the %yield increase beyond the current low 20% range.</p>
<p>New Paltz is clearly not very selective and has students with very average stats, but I do agree with you that it is worth a second look. New Paltz has a recent history of activism which is unusual for a SUNY. The topics of interest have been sexual liberation, legalization of pot, and ongoing and sometimes intense conflict with the school administration. The students even threatened to form their own armed militia. There are also accusations that the administration has conspired to cover up the extent of the PCB contamination in the dorms. Maybe the issues are not very exciting, but at least there are some signs of life on campus.</p>
<p>edad, LOL - well something must really be going on because you just acknowledged that SUNY New Paltz deserves a second look! Btw, in my reply to Dwincho, I never said New Paltz was highly selective. This SUNY's self-appraisal of their niche is completely unpretentious - they fit right into what you would see as an undistinguished "average" category that is generally called "competitive" or "highly selective". Their aim to strenghen their applicant pool and position in relation to other public institutions (which of course is part of a national trend) and, at the same time, serve the needs of their local student base seems to be relatively modest. At this point, they stand out because they are not concerned with aggressive marketing and are satisfied with current application numbers (9000 apps for 900 places). What they do acknowledge, is a problem with student retention. So, if there are signs of life as you put it, if the administration is trying to improve conditions and student feed-back is positive, why not say so? People can make up their own minds because ultimately, as Marny and Weenie posted, for most students and families, the right choice is all about getting the information and then finding the right fit.</p>
<p>At this point, I can't help but think of what is going on with AOL right now - "if you don't keep up, you get left behind in a hurry." And, that is a sign of the times we now live in. Same thing goes for Binghamton. Simply put, it has gotten good press this year. Why do we need to know this? Because, we can then better follow the fall-out. This HEI has far more lofty aspirations than New Paltz, for example, and intends to put itself out there as a "premier" institution and to compete on a national scale. I am not spouting the "public ivy" rhetoric that so many of these institutions with similar high aims throw around but simply pointing out that, like other New York HE options, SUNY schools do have a "national reputation", and as a result are beginning to be much better known outside New York. Seems to me perfectly fair to acknowledge this, especially when there have been posts made on this thread dealing directly with these issues.</p>
<p>With elections on the horizon, the "Bright Flight" story is certainly a perfect vehicle for political candidates to galvanize public opinion and debate hot topics that run the gamut from high taxes, the flagging economy, and problems in New York State education. It also has added drama because it draws quite a clear distinction between what is going on, and not going on, in Upstate vs. Downstate New York.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Call it the Brain Drain, call it Bright Flight; the loss of the risk-takers, the new thinkers, the technically-adept, the champions of change. They're thought of as economic engines, says Kathryn Foster, Director of the UB Institute for Local Governance and Regional Growth.</p>
<p>Upstate and downstate are like separate states and states of mind. New York City and its five suburban counties in the 1990's gained young people by 1.5%, upstate lost young people by 10%.
"We're losing them because of property taxes, unfunded mandates," says Spitzer.
Faso cites reasons like, out of control spending and lack of reform in things like education."
But the economy seems to be relatively rosy downstate. And two thirds of the State Assembly and Senate are from downstate.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>While the on-going political and economic debate risks widening the Upstate-Downstate divide, it is important to keep things in perspective. Down-state New Yorkers have it tough too. "In the suburbs of New York City, as in many other places across the country, property taxes are the main revenue source for municipal and county governments and, most expensively, their schools. But while property taxes are principally a local issue, they have major political ramifications in state capitols."</p>
<p>Yet, most New Yorkers seem to agree that they love where they live and will put up with an amazing amount of hassles to stay in New York. Also, although New York is a large state, the Upstate-Downstate cultural divide is not at all as clear-cut as it might seem and it is getting fuzzier all the time. We all know about the rust belt and the snow belt, but now it is time to find out and explore more about the cilantro belt. Scruffy and rural as Upstate New York may be, it that is also part of the charm that city folk-tourists, who are also engines of the local economy, want. So, these days, it is not all that surprising to find out that "up there" is beginning to look more like "down there" and part of the good news for many is: "There are fewer cows and more cookies."</p>
<p>No doubt, since it is an election year, the Upstate-Downstate debate will heat up. Maybe that will be a good thing because the fact of the matter is, most New Yorker aren't even sure what "Downstate" and "Upstate" is exactly - and that, at least, is one thing that New Yorkers pretty much can agree about.</p>
<p>Thanks asteriskea for the link to neovox.cortland. I had no idea that SUNY Cortland even had an on-line magazine for their International student population until you brought it to my attention. Should I admit, I wasn't even aware that they had much of an International student population at Cortland?? Well I guess I will learn more about the school as my d will soon be starting her studies there.
I also caught the article I'm from Lawn Guyland. How "bout Chu??
I did need a bit of translation as my roots are all Brooklyn and I still have a bit of trouble with the "Lawn Guyland" dialect!! In fact I am going to a Cyclones game in Coney Island tonight- so I guess I can revert to my true Brooklyn accent. (Like I ever lost it!!)</p>
<p>Marny, I hope you are still there because I want to wish you and your D all the best at Cortland. If the above site is any indication, I am sure there will be a lot more to discover once she gets there! I didn't know about the Cortland international on-line magazine either before I found the above linked article "Manhattan is New York, but New York is not Manhattan". It certainly made me think about just how much the "concept" of New York needs to be translated - both to New Yorkers and non-New Yorkers. Sometimes it is not enough to simply say that New York is a big state. This is especially true for international students, many of whom come to attend a college in Upstate, or even, central New York with stars in their eyes only to be disenchanted by the distance from "the City" . Somehow, I don't think that students from Germany will have any problems with the climate but I didn't realize how much of a good college experience involves getting to understand the "topography of New York State".</p>
<p>
[quote]
New York’s name has a prominent and unique sound all over the world... But many students tend to ignore that New York is not only the city, but also a whole state; some are deeply taken aback when coming to SUNY-Cortland to realize that Cortland is New York, but not New York City. And Cortland is not even very close to "The City". But not only foreigners struggle with the topography of New York State. Or do you know exactly where the boundaries among western, central, and eastern New York are? Is Albany part of the ‘North East’, ‘Upstate,’ or ‘Downstate’--or are you more likely to say ‘Albany is central New York’? When thinking about that you will quickly realize that things can not easily be depicted.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>But then again, this is not exactly a problem unique to New York since so many colleges and universities not only have to provide academic quality but also an environment that will entertain and thereby retain students. A case in point is Arizona State's new downtown campus and the problems students might have dealing with the urban topography of Pheonix:</p>
<p>
[quote]
Keeping students busy:
The retention push begins Thursday, when the university launches its "Welcome Week," a series of events, dinners and tours designed to throw students headlong into downtown Phoenix.</p>
<p>The idea is to get students involved or interested in something other than academics, and to show them what the area has to offer.</p>
<p>"We've tried all along to be realistic in what we've presented to our students and prospective students," Stanley said. "But if you are willing to look around and see what's there . . . you'll see that it's not a wasteland."
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Even though the "Big Apple" continues to grow faster and attract more educated young adults than the rest of NYS, no doubt many prospectives students will be investigating more about Upstate (or is it Central) New York now that RPI and Skidmore have been anointed as part of the inner circle of highly competitive schools Newsweek has dubbed the "New Ivies".
<a href="http://www.troyrecord.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=17054447&BRD=1170&PAG=461&dept_id=7021&rfi=6New%5B/url%5D">http://www.troyrecord.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=17054447&BRD=1170&PAG=461&dept_id=7021&rfi=6New</a> York</p>
<p>Yup- I am still here. Thanks for the good wishes Asteriskea. We'll be heading up to Cortland next week as classes start 8/28.
I have probably spent more time "Upstate" in the past year, than I have in the past 30 years. I think I am gaining an appreciation for the natural beauty and rural atmosphere that exists throughout NYS. And there is such an incredible difference coming from NYC and comparing it to towns in Columbia, Tompkins, Onondaga, and Cortland counties. Even just driving a few miles out of Syracuse, there's lush farmland all about. You forget how rural NYS really is. It's so different from Brooklyn. Maybe I am appreciating NYS more in my old age as I have more insight into the different ways of life throughout the state. Though I gotta admit, it's nice to visit but I don't know if I could live upstate all year round. I summer cottage near a lake would be very nice though.</p>
<p>Anyway d does seem a bit excited. When we saw her up at camp last week (had to start getting her clothing home so we could prepare them for school) she was wearing her Cortland Tee shirt.<br>
I am in the process of doing lots of laundry and getting 2 girls off to college within the next 10 days. so it's a busy time in our household.</p>
<p>Good luck to all- I know for alot of us, this is an emotional time as we are actually getting our kids ready to leave home for college. So Best Wishes to all--</p>
<p>Good luck to the Class of 2011!!</p>
<p>The way SUNY is seen in NYC high schools is as a strong education for B and C students, with the exception of Geneseo and Binghamton. However, these two do not attract too many superstars either, and I think it has left them with somewhat of an identity crisis.</p>
<p>"The best thing about the SUNY schools is the extremely low tuition, especially for instate students. Even that might not be such a good thing, considering the economic pressures on the system."</p>
<p>The fairly low admission rate means that it's a crapshoot for average kids in New York to get admitted.</p>
<p>"I have no idea how one would ever fix SUNY. Some of it starts with fixing NY state's government (good luck with that one). I just know I'd rather have my own kids attend almost anybody else's state U over ours."</p>
<p>Thankfully our repulsive governor isn't running again. Except for taking his comedy show on the road as a "presidential candidate."</p>
<p>My daughter is one of those mediocre, downstate kids and she has turned her snout up at the SUNYs, partially because she isn't sure she will get admitted, partially because she thinks of them as having that utilitarian vibe, and partly because her private school GC (geezer counsellor) is adamant about his kids not applying to private colleges in a state with SUNYs and CUNYs and she will do the opposite of what he says every time. That man is going to have a lot of irate parents expecting admission at SUNY school and not getting any.</p>