<p>Editing the papers, why stop there? We had a graduate here at the high school where I teach whose mom gave him a fax machine for graduation so that she could still write his papers for him. It lacked a "blue book" feature though so her kid never made it past his first year. Sad</p>
<p>Not sure editing and comments are cheating. After all, the actual work is the author's. If editing and comments are cheating, then all those who submit academic papers are cheaters. It is the rare manuscript (don't know of any) that is published without editing and comments.</p>
<p>I think it behooves teachers to check what sort of help is allowed or not, but I can't imagine any teacher minding that someone else check for spelling. It's just too hard to catch them in one's own writing no matter how good a speller one is.</p>
<p>I do think learning to write well is a slow painstaking iterative process and that involved parents who are fairly good writers themselves can coach and coax and sort of hold a child to a higher standard than their teachers might. Through middle school our kids would often show us their writing assignments and I or my H would critique them - sometimes to angry reaction! These same papers their teachers would give A+ grades to. Once into hs this pretty much stopped - they had learned to "walk on their own." Our D1 did want editing help with her IB extended research paper but my H and I were to swamped with our own work to give it to her. She'd been so fiercely independent throughout hs that I was sorry not to be able to help her at that moment. The final product was wonderfult, though, and I think a better experience for her for having done it completely on her own. So I think it's fine to help tutor your kids in writing - but not do the assignments for them.</p>
<p>Most colleges have writing centers of some sort. Some have outstanding ones. </p>
<p>At Swarthmore, for example, there is a writing center with trained writing associates who will work with any student on any paper at any stage of writing. There are also "writing classes" in every discipline, where submitting the papers to WA is required (and every student has to take at least 3 "writing" classes at Swarthmore). A student writing a thesis can have a "thesis WA" who will work with the student throughout the semester. I am sure that those writing associates are helping the students who struggle with writing much more than most parents could help. This is not only "legit", but is strongly encouraged.</p>
<p>At Stanford, they have some sort of "editing service" (at least for thesis writers - I don't think they accept random term papers). They don't edit the content, but look for typos and obvious stylistic errors.</p>
<p>Most Us have some sort of writing support that is often much better than the parents can provide.</p>
<p>Wouldn't even know where to start. I suppose at one time in my life I understood Chemistry and Calculus. My college diploma says I did, at least. But I'm clueless. The only thing I've done so far is read my son's blog that he was required to create as part of his college writing class. He thinks that's supremely stupid and his blog entries consist of one (1) theme -- this is supremely stupid. That's about it. I see the grades and I write the checks.</p>
<p>We wouldn't even know the grades if he didn't tell us. No real input from us. I figure he and his advisor can figure out what classes he should take and the only things I know more about than he does at this point are psychology and pie baking--maybe medicine. He's doing fine on his own.</p>
<p>DS's college academic experience is his own, no input from me or DH. I haven't the foggiest idea what kinematics is nor do I care to! Even though he is a sophomore now, we find he needs our occasional prodding/input/nagging in other arenas to get fully launched on his own. This weekend was the get your income taxes done already harangue. The figuring a flight home for the end of school is next.</p>
<p>Well, we do pay the tuition bill, and we did have to sign some forms recently on D's study abroad applications. And we love to go watch her team play, when we can.</p>
<p>Other than that, we hear about things she's studying that she either 1. thinks we'll be interested in (and we usually are), or 2. knows we can't fathom but she's still so excited she wants to tell us about anyway. And she likes to think out loud in our direction, as it were (or I guess, think via IM), about her major, her courses for the next couple of years, etc. And of course there are non-college areas (taxes, as second spring mentioned, and others) where she still has questions or concerns that we're happy to help with, if asked.</p>
<p>Specifically on the subject of writing and papers: There's absolutely nothing wrong with writers asking for an outside look, for proofing (further to what mathmom said, it's awfully hard to catch your own errors, and the world of spellcheck can actually exacerbate that problem) or for more content-based comments, but I feel strongly that parents aren't the ones that college students should be looking to. As nngmm said, there are writing centers at many, many schools now, and plenty of other formal resources. At a more informal level, if they can't figure this out for themselves, kids can be encouraged to make some kind of reciprocal deal with roommates or hallmates: I'll proof your paper if you proof mine. (NB, Roommates or hallmates rather than friends in the same class, because that removes any concerns about sharing content.) </p>
<p>Although that kind of brings me back around to the big issue here: These are college students the OP is talking about. It's their college experience, not ours.</p>
<p>Or maybe I'm just as mean as my kinds have always said I am. ;)</p>
<p>
[quote]
Specifically on the subject of writing and papers: There's absolutely nothing wrong with writers asking for an outside look, for proofing (further to what mathmom said, it's awfully hard to catch your own errors, and the world of spellcheck can actually exacerbate that problem) or for more content-based comments, but I feel strongly that parents aren't the ones that college students should be looking to. As nngmm said, there are writing centers at many, many schools now, and plenty of other formal resources. At a more informal level, if they can't figure this out for themselves, kids can be encouraged to make some kind of reciprocal deal with roommates or hallmates: I'll proof your paper if you proof mine. (NB, Roommates or hallmates rather than friends in the same class, because that removes any concerns about sharing content.)
[/quote]
My daughter's English class they are actually required to peer review some of their papers. The draft has to be handed in and then the draft with the critique by the peer also has to be handed in. My daughter has found she has learned a lot from this process. </p>
<p>Back to the original question - I am finally learning to fly the helicopter in reverse. It is tough. I have to confess the 1st semester I was a bit hovery (her scholarship requires a certain GPA and we have a friend whose very bright son had the same scholarship last year and managed to lose it). But she got straight As first semester. Don't know if she will this semester from a couple of things she has said - but I keep repeating to myself - it is her life and her future. (of course knowing the 1st semester grades mean that she would have to tank the 2nd semester - which is not happening - to lose the scholarship helps in the backing off process. ).</p>
<p>I don't think that proofreading a paper for grammar and spelling constitutes cheating. If that were the case, then how could all these schools even justify having writing centers? Having someone tell you WHAT to write? Now, THAT would be cheating!</p>
<p>While I do know of parents who have actually written papers for their HS kids, I know my kids would never tolerate that. My comments are limited to the above, (grammar, spelling) and the occasional content (verifying that they are indeed trying to say what was said, etc.). Several of #2 son's essays - were not what I would have chosen for a topic and in some cases, would not have said what they did. But they were his.</p>
<p>Son is a writing seminars major and sends us his stories, papers and plays not for review or correction but just for our enjoyment. My wife will sometimes gently suggest leaving out the "F" word or a sex scene but thats about it. (Note every creative writer is taught by their teachers to "write as if your parents were dead")</p>
<p>My D sent me her first English comp paper first semester and asked me to proofread. I corrected a couple of spelling and grammatical errors and emailed it back. She never sent me another one, in any subject. She got an A in that class and made Deans List. This semester she has a Comp Lit class but still has not sent me any papers to check. She has an A+ grade average in the Comp Lit so far.</p>
<p>Mammall,
DH and I did lots of tutoring in writing, too, since it has been an imporatant part of both our careers. I was tired of seeing As on essays that were clearly not what they were capable of producing. There was a thread about this a few months ago and P3T had some wonderful suggestions on tutoring, what's acceptable help, etc. </p>
<p>S1 had three big papers due at the end of last semester -- nailed two of them, and spent little time on the English paper -- heck, I didn't know he had a paper to do for that class until two weeks after he turned it in. Didn't do so hot, and it affected his semester grade. I think he learned that lesson!</p>
<p>These days, S2 says that I don't know what his English teachers want, so I should stay out of it (all said nicely, but gee...). </p>
<p>I expect them both to make frequent use of writing support services wherever they wind up for college.</p>
<p>P.S. Both guys have to peer edit (and it counts as part of the grade) for some classes -- and the other people are always miffed when they get back comments from one of my kids! Guess they inherited my red pen!</p>
<p>D went through 7 years of Senior School (we're in the UK - different system) without ever showing us any of her work. I was therefore flabbergasted when she started emailing essays from university, asking if we could read them through. She is at Oxford, doing English, and the workload is incredible: 27 essays (3,000 words each) last term (8 weeks). I think she just got bleary eyed and wanted someone to read through and tell her it was coherent. H and I rarely had time to read them and when we did, we limited ourselves to copy editing (lots of red ????s in parentheses). Oxford tutorials are all about close reading and she knew her tutor would be scrutinizing every single word so just wanted a 'second pair of eyes.'</p>
<p>Now that D is in college, we have happily remained on the sidelines. Last year we were more involved than we would have expected in supervising (i.e., nagging about) applications. We haven't seen any papers and she made all decisions about courses she would take. </p>
<p>We have offered advice when asked on an occasional suitemate issue - primarily as a sounding board because D will not gossip or complain about one girl to another, so she will occasionally vent with her mom. Mom is careful to listen, but not offer advice unless it is requested. This requires mom to purse lips together so she doesn't blurt out anything stupid while D is talking.</p>
<p>
[quote]
This requires mom to purse lips together so she doesn't blurt out anything stupid while D is talking
[/quote]
A skill this Mom has yet to learn - especially about a certain (thankfully) ex boyfriend who is apparently still a friend. Normally I am a tactful person - cannot seem to keep my lips zipped. Sigh. Any tips other than superglue</p>
<p>Sounding board is a good name for what parents should be when the kids are in college. You are not responsible for the problems/solutions/decisions, but if they ask, you can help them make their own decisions by giving your ideas of pros & cons, so they make their own decision, but it is a well-informed decision.</p>
<p>My first kid never asked for any help until she ran into a situation she could not solve herself as a university senior. Since then, as a grad student she now feels free to bounce things off us without feeling like she is running to mommy & daddy.</p>
<p>D2 asks for input all the time- probably less each year, but still I know tons about her life & friends & decisions, she just likes a sounding board and shares her life and it's nice.</p>
<p>No homework though!!!</p>
<p>Our S is a pretty darn good writer. We have seen the articles he has written for one of the on-campus publications and one lengthy paper he wrote. Otherwise we have not seen the many papers he has written for classes. While I would like to see them just for the ideas he puts together, his grades show me that there is absolutely no need for my help. In his math classes not only could I not help him with the problems; I cannot understand what the courses are about (only had 3 semesters of calculus myself).
What I had been helping him with occasionally, and not even recently, was letters seeking employment.</p>
<p>Is a Microsoft Word program cheating? Doesn't it make grammar and spelling suggestions? (Not rhetorical, I have no idea. I don't even know how the google toolbar showed up one day, with a spellchecker!!) Are these kids not using the writing center for suggestions and "help"? Does that make the work product any less their own if they use the tools the college provides expressly for their use? I can't see it. As I said , my only problem is I don't have the foggiest idea what she's talking about so..... content editing - not a good plan. ;)</p>