Parents caring for the parent support thread (Part 1)

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6041

Thanks lookingforward.

So if Im squaring the link I posted with the one you posted correctly, it’s the difference between being able to transfer it while the Medicaid recipient is still alive without medicaid reversing the transfer/declaring grandma ineligible, and keeping the house while in a nursing home, then Medicaid pursuing estate recovery after death. Well it looks like we’re covered in either scenario.

I guess what is “vulnerable” is the $42000 savings and $85000 real estate. It sounds like to attain eligibility, grandma would have to “spend down” those assets, but she could retain her homestead. So to be eligible, she’d need something like a sub $10,000 net worth, exclusive of the house.

My uncle is married and solidly middle class from what I can tell, so the socialist in me would say he doesn’t “need” this money. However, since the will says 50/50 split, I’m worried that if the house is all that’s left that he and my mom would have to split it and sell it. If I had one kid that was struggling and one that wasn’t I think I’d structure my will differently…but it’s my grandma’s decision and I heard her reaffirm it while she was still of sound mind. Anyway, I’m digressing again. There’s only so much I can actually do, simply worrying isn’t productive. Also, it’s my grandmother’s money that she worked hard for, so if she does need a Medicaid supported nursing home to be comfortable, that’s the primary concern over everyone else’s finances.

6042

Study: Antipsychotics pose risk of death for dementia patients
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/03/18/study-antipsychotics-pose-risk-dementia-patients/24987095/

I may be weird, but an early death if I’ve got dementia and am violent would not be the worst thing. Not even close to the worst thing. Without the antipsychotics during my mom’s late stage it wouldn’t have been safe to keep her home.

6043

If your grandmother is not currently of sound mind, how is she supposed to be legally transferring her house NOW to her children?

6044

No legal determination about her mind has been made yet that I know of. I’m just basing this on personal observation and the result of her latest admission assessment. Also I think she had a UTI recently, so her delusions may not be permanent.

But say she does need her POA transferred…it doesn’t seem unethical to me for her kids to complete the property transfer themselves as long as they’re looking after her and taking care of her.

6045

So nobody has a power of attorney for her? Or someone does have a power of attorney, and they propose to use it to transfer the title of her house from her to themselves?

6046

Arabrab-well said. My mother in her dementia needs the antipsychotics or no one would even be In the same room with her. I am aware of the risk.

Also before she moved into AL she also was afraid the tree would fall on the house and kill her, my dad did save well for them. She had the tree cut down.

6047

I don’t know what the POA situation is. At first I was thinking that’s something that’s transferred after you are declared unfit, but now it occurred to me that that’s something you would want to designate before you get to that point. My grandmother had a will written quite a while ago that I assume was pretty boilerplate. Her kids are listed as the beneficiaries of her estate. Wouldn’t most wills say you POA goes living spouse>kids? If not then we need to get moving on this issue.

6048

I’m going to do everything I can to meet with an elder law attorney asap.

6049

Her will doesn’t determine her power of attorney. Wills don’t take effect until the person is dead. If she has not previously given a power of attorney to someone, consult a lawyer. Someone will need to become her Guardian or Conservator. I’m pretty sure you’ll have to go to court to get a Guardian/Conservator appointed. Consult a lawyer.

6050

Are you saying that you can tell from what I’ve posted that its too late for her to give anyone her power of attorney herself? Because she’s been judged or will be judged incompetent?

6051

Vyse, get the POA asap. This thread has shown in different ways how it can help with managing affairs, banking, etc. It’s medical poa that only kicks in when docs say she’s not able to make calls on her healthcare. Someone should have both. Most states have the forms online, with instructions. You sound like a close family, no one pulling any fast ones.

Note that link says call DADS with questions/dept of aging and disability svcs. You could do that before contracting a lawyer, partly to see if it reassures you, partly to hear the scoop from the dept, more educate yourself, whether or not you later pay a lawyer.

My initial interpretation, what I’d cautiously ask about:
I believe the home is protected. I believe no need to transfer it, which might appear like a move to protect assets against a medicaid lookback. (And you don’t know how long Grandma will live, sorry.) If your mom lives there, I believe the TX MERP document suggest the state will NOT try to “recover” from it. (“There is an unmarried adult child who lived full-time in the Medicaid person’s home for at least one year before this person died.”) So I believe your mom could stay there, subject to the will. She might have to make some arrangement with uncle- eg, that she could live there x years, etc. That might be something to feel out with a lawyer.

Best wishes, know this is hard.

6052

In a cooperative situation, you likely don’t need guardianship or conservatorship. Those can be lengthy processes, sometimes expensive. Who in the family would contest your actions on grandma’s behalf?

We were about to apply for guardianship of my GM, because she would not sign the regular POA (my mother already had the medical one.) Then she did.

6053

If she is legally incompetent (I don’t mean that she has been declared incompetent; I mean if she is no longer competent) then she cannot grant power of attorney to anyone. It sounds to me like you think she is not able at this point to make legal contracts.

6054

I think she’s in a gray area. She was able to recently give a doctor her medical history and answer all his questions to his satisfaction. But she has no sense of order of magnitude anymore. She asked if we’d paid the yard man $1000 (I asked my mom to check her bank statements to make sure there wasn’t any precedent of her actually doing that…). I think she can appreciate the need to give my mom POA and trust her to do the right thing with it. But I’d never want her buying a car or dealing with an alarm salesman again.

6055

An attorney would interview your grandmother, as an officer of the court he cannot execute legal documents if he believes her to be incompetent. This includes being on pain medication at the time of the meeting. It is a gray area. Are there any assessments, (medical), that state that she is incapacitated? I agree with others to seek legal advice asap. See if there is a state of Tx. recognized elder attorney in the local area that would offer a 15 min. pro bono consultation with you. Best of luck, it will be a long haul, sending hugs and prayers.

6056

vyse, the POA is critical to get if you don’t already have it. And it ends when she dies, then the will / executor takes over and the POA is finished. If she is even in the grey area, I would try to get it done. The only problem with her being incompetent to make that designation is if someone like a nurse saw coercion or if your uncle contested any of the decisions. But if no one argues later, the POA will stand and will be a great help. And you might need to get a particular POA form from a bank, they can be picky. My mom had to go into the bank with me already having a POA to sign a different one for me to handle her mortgage. They were nice enough about it and did it on the spot, but they wanted THEIR form.

The people saying to have lawyers interview your grandmother and to get a guardianship might not be the best path right now. It is expensive and difficult and then you have lots of court interference into her business that you try to conduct later. you can’t, for example, sell or transfer her house w/o their approval (YMMV depending on state law, my experience is with OR law).

My advice would be to see if she has a POA and if not, get one ASAP. You can print one off the web and have her sign it and have someone witness it. If she can answer the DR. she can sign the POA.
PS, Sorry for your family in this difficult time.

6057

In my state, no attorney is necessary but poa needs a Notary Public to attest it’s being signed by the Principal. (There is also a line there allowing for real esrate transactions or not.) We pulled the docs off the web, I believe from our state web site. Incompetence, from what I see online, isn’t a casual observation, not a matter of ‘she had a foggy moment about a bill.’

Agree, if there’s little fuss anticipated (eg, from Uncle,) just do it.

The point about checking with the bank - or investment companies - came up on this thread. Some needed a bank specific document. That’s worth checking.

As for the separate medical poa, I sawTX will go with family relationship, if there is no document. But you can try to get that signed, as well.

6058

Ok, my action list is:

1.) Print the POA form, plan on getting my grandma to sign it on Saturday.
2.) Call the Department of Aging and Disability and Aging Services and ask them my questions.
3.) Probably meet with an elder law attorney. My mom is supposed to have a legal benefit through work. If it doesn’t provide her good access to a specialist or if she procrastinates, then I’ll look on google/ask for a local referral.

Thanks for the ideas and well wishes guys. As hard as it is to see my grandmother so fragile, I think I have a healthier understanding/acceptance of what’s going on than I did when my grandfather passed. For whatever reason, his passing from a heart attack came as a “surprise” to me, even though it shouldn’t have given his health. It was hard losing the first grandparent. With my grandmother I won’t miss her any less, but having gone through it once before, and seeing her struggle more gradually, I at least won’t feel as blindsided this time. And the frenzy of making arrangements, receiving friends and family, doing probate, etc. will be something I’ve done before.

I think if its ok with everyone, I might prefer if my mom handles healthcare POA, and I handle financial POA. I’d discuss it with my uncle first since I’m a grandkid and not her child, but I’m pretty good with money if I do say so myself, and I’m efficient at paying bills online and keeping things orderly. With a system like Mint Bills, I don’t think it would even be that time consuming for me once I got everything set up. My uncle isn’t as familiar with her finances since he lives 4 hours away, and my mom has had some issues in the past with paying bills on time and handling money. To get everyone to buy in, I would suggest that after I set up all her bill payments, bank statements, brokerage accounts, etc. online I can share the password with my mom and uncle so that there is complete transparency so that they can trust, but verify if they want to.

Also, with healthcare POA, my mom’s heart is in the right place, and she’s been very active in coordinating my grandmother’s doctor’s visits and advocating for her. But I do have some reservations about one thing: her ability to make difficult but necessary end-of-life decisions. My grandmother doesn’t have any advanced directives, and our approach with both her and my grandfather has been “Do what’s necessary to keep them alive”, and the doctors have really come through a couple times and saved them. However, I’m worried that someday my mom might be faced with a situation where my grandmother is completely supported by machines and isn’t really “alive” anymore, and my mom is asked about pulling the plug. I can see my mom freaking out and not being able to do it. Then again, I think she’d be as upset or more if someone else made the decision for her when she disagreed with it. But I think for now all I can do is hope it doesn’t come to that.

Thanks for the advice everyone. I don’t mean to monopolize this thread with all my posts. I think I have a decent enough plan going forward now.

6059

Here’s a good resource http://www.eldercaredirectories.com/

6060

You sound clear headed and caring. This is always a hard time but the gift is the time to be extra loving to her. Yes, you can be financial poa.