Parents disagreeing on college strategy

Parents Forum
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<p>DS has done a lot of outside reading/work in his area of interest, and he mentioned one of the books in one of his essays when he discussed his eclectic book pile. :) Unbeknownst to us until afterwards, his research mentor mentioned in his letter that when DS first came to him, he had already mastered the material covered in said text (whichis the book where said mentor usually starts students who come to work with him), so they were able to move directly on to more advanced stuff.</p>

<p>His strongest "ECs" were things he by and large did outside the context of school, though they were fairly intellectual/academic in nature. He also demonstrated a sense of humor about them. I agree with mathmom and carolyn. What seemed to matter in the long run were scores, grades, revealing essays and deep/long-term interests (however quirky or off-the-wall) honestly portrayed. The long-term interests took him down some very interesting pathways that we never would have imagined four years ago.</p>

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<p>The appropriate "college strategy" is for parents to butt out when it comes to structuring the kid's social & academic life, and then between the spring of junior year and fall of senior year, help guide the kid to colleges that will be a good fit/match for who the kid is not what he pretends to be. If the kid isn't a "joiner" or the type to want to be involved in a lot of ECs..... what's the sense of pushing him to be someone else.... so that he can get into a college surrounded by kids who like doing the things he'd prefer to avoid?</p>

<p>There are times when it is appropriate for a parent to nudge a kid along. I was a painfully shy high schooler and my mom insisted that I join some social/service clubs because she wanted me to have more friends and develop improved social skills -- I hated those activities but appreciated what my mom was trying to do. Similarly I have no problem with the idea of a parent encouraging a couch-potato kid to take up a sport, or insisting that their offspring participate in volunteer or charitable activities simply because that is part of the family ethos, or asking the kid to get a job to develop self-sufficiency or because the family could use the money. </p>

<p>But that's very different than selecting or pushing activities for the purpose of looking good for college admissions.</p>

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<p>This may sound rough....but the CHILD is the one going to college and HE will need to have the drive to succeed once there. I guess I feel that if a student doesn't have the "drive" to do what it takes to get admitted, that is telling. That student will need the drive to succeed and no parents will be there to prod him along. </p>

<p>I do agree that academic success is very important. I also think that any ECs should be from the heart and not to build a resume. AND lastly, I think ALL of this need to be student driven (yes, suggestions can be made by the parents...but that's as far as I would take it).</p>

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<p>Calmom said: If the kid isn't a "joiner" or the type to want to be involved in a lot of ECs..... what's the sense of pushing him to be someone else.... so that he can get into a college surrounded by kids who like doing the things he'd prefer to avoid?</p>

<p>That is <em>exactly</em> the reason my older son didn't apply to some schools that other considered a "given" for him. </p>

<p>We stayed far away from his EC choices. We'd talk together about course choices, but he knew what he wanted and he consistently demonstrated terrific judgment. It was usually electives that got the dinner-time chatter. That part was fun -- so many choices, so little time. He also needed to have a couple courses as backups in case he had schedule conflicts -- he was taking courses that weren't offered every year or had very small sections, so there were often overlaps.</p>

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<p><<carolyn -="" i="" will="" state="" that="" there="" is="" an="" exception="" to="" your="" statement="" regarding="" extracurricular="" activities.="" if="" a="" student="" can="" be="" truly="" exemplary="" in="" athletics,="" while="" still="" maintaining="" high="" grades="" and="" scores,="" chances="" at="" admission="" even="" the="" most="" competitive="" colleges="" country="" soars.="" by="" mean="" national="" class="" which="" means="" non-revenue="" sports="" being="" top="" 20="" or="" so="" endeavor.="" from="" personal="" experience="" found="" it="" strange="" just="" how="" welcoming="" elite="" schools="" were.="">></carolyn></p>

<p>I agree with you, but, realistically, parents can't TURN their kids into national class athletes if the child doesn't have some inner drive to become one on his/her own. So, please folks, don't run out and start getting your kids lessons in some sport purely out of hope it will give them an admissions edge. :)</p>

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<p>I absolutely agree that a kid should not load up on clubs and other activities just for the sake of putting them on a college application. DS calls this "credentialling" and he can spot those kids a mile away. I think something done well, whether it's a school e/c or anything aside from classwork, and something that the kid really likes is probably the best thing and I think demonstrates more integrity than the kids who engage in "credentialling."
But think on this hypothetical - what if, for instance, you have a kid who has top grades, top scores, challenging courses, good AP test scores, but nothing else, and you have another kid with the same numbers and challenging courses, but he or she is involved with sports or music or student government or something. Wouldn't an admissions officer be more impressed by a kid who could get the top numbers but still do something EC more than someone who appears to be doing nothing but studying? Am I being paranoid? I'm sorry - I live to fret.</p>

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<p><<carolyn, what="" are="" good="" ways="" to="" get="" that="" intellectual="" curiosity="" and="" passion="" come="" across?="" is="" it="" the="" essays?="" it's="" something="" i="" have="" had="" on="" my="" mind="" as="" i've="" got="" a="" freshman="" who="" loves="" learn="" his="" own.="" he's="" teaching="" himself="" some="" programming,="" reading="" up="" about="" physics,="" etc.="" been="" wondering="" if="" he="" needs="" do="" above="" beyond="" be="" able="" show="" curiosity,="">></carolyn,></p>

<p>First, kids change A LOT between freshman and senior years, so what matters is not WHAT he's interested in at this point, but rather that he is OPEN to learning and exploring his interests. Encourage that, rather than focusing too much on trying to mold a specific interest into an "edge" four years from now. Give him enough free time to explore not just his current interests, but new ones as they pop up along the way. Support his interests - there's nothing wrong with suggesting summer programs or arranging lessons if he is interested or suggesting other opportunities - but don't force his interests into a box. Nothing squelches intellectual curiousity like being told you HAVE to be intellectually curious. :)</p>

<p>When he's getting ready to apply to college, expose him to a wide range of options, not just the obvious ones for whatever his interests/passions might be. Encourage him to think about who he is as a person first, and then what type of school might be the best match for him and how he thinks. Don't immediately assume that the only good school is one you've heard of -- stay open-minded about the multitude of options out there, and let him lead the way in terms of deciding which schools fit.</p>

<p>In terms of getting his interests/passions across when he does start applying, the most important thing he can do is choose people to write his recommendations who recognize his intellectual curiousity. If he's the type of kid who is always questioning, always thinking, always looking for new ideas, at least some of his teachers will recognize that. IF he's interested, encourage him to actively seek out teachers and other adults who can help him develop his interests independently, or at least who are interested in hearing about them. When it comes time for him to decide on who he's going to ask for recommendations, tell him to think of who knows how he thinks best, rather than who thinks he's a nice kid.</p>

<p>The essays don't necessarily have to be about his passions, but the best essays make it clear that this is a kid who DOES think, who is open to ideas, and, most importantly, who hasn't been packaged to be "the perfect college applicant" but rather who has some budding sense of who he is and how he fits in the world.</p>

<p>Interviews are another good opportunity to get that passion across, but I don't like to prep kids too much for interviews. They shouldn't sound like businesspeople applying for a job, they should come across as interesting KIDS who know who they are and who aren't afraid of trying new things.</p>

<p>But, here's the critical thing to remember: a good part of learning who you are comes from making mistakes and facing disappointment, and learning how to move on. Give your son lots of room to make mistakes, to change course, and to explore. Keep him safe, of course, but not too safe. Try to stay calm when things don't work out the way you'd hope, as they inevitably will with most teens who, like chameleons, are prone to many colors.</p>

<p>Finally, keep things in perspective: Getting into college shouldn't be the entire focus of his high school years. Growing into a self-aware, self-confident, and able adult should be. No one gets the parent of the year award because their kid gets into Harvard. Your main job is not to get him into college, but to help him become a good person. If you succeed at that, you have succeeded as a parent, even if your child DOESN'T go to college, let alone Harvard. Good luck!</p>

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<p>Wouldn't an admissions officer be more impressed by a kid who could get the top numbers but still do something EC more than someone who appears to be doing nothing but studying? Am I being paranoid? I'm sorry - I live to fret.>></p>

<p>Balance is important in all things. Kids who are only studying to get good grades -- nope, not going to fly any more than kids who are only participating in an EC because they thing it will look good to colleges. But, keep in mind that there ARE colleges that value the kid who loves to learn, and who might prefer the kid who spends their time reading and learning just for learning's sake over the kid who is ASB president but merely goes through the paces to earn good grades in the classroom. </p>

<p>Again, work with the kid you have, not the one you think colleges want to see. That includes helping your child identify colleges where he/she will be valued for who they are, whether they are ASB president or someone who prefers a good book. There are places for ALL types of kids in the college world.</p>

<p>(On a humorous note, I'd like to meet a kid who does nothing BUT study. I don't think they've been invented yet. :) )</p>

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<p>Thank you all! These are extremely helpful posts.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
The <em>most</em> important factors for admission to ANY college are: strength of high school curriculum, grades in college prep classes, and test scores.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>True, but if we are talking about the most selective colleges, they are overwhelmed with applications from kids with top grades and test scores. At some point, these serve only to establish the student as qualified, but making distinctions among the large number of applicants on these grounds gets difficult as they bump up against the truncated range of grades and scores. Then EC's start to make a big difference.</p>

<p>Same point about the distinction between admitted and enrolled student scores and CDS data. In general, colleges accept many more students than apply. However, at the most selective colleges the yield is generally above 50% (except for Caltech). So the CDS is an indicator of admissions standards. It is important to look for being above the 75%ile, not "in range" as a predictor of admissions probability. However, even here, the odds are not good. A few of the top colleges (Penn and Brown for sure) publish detailed tables of admissions probability by SAT score. Even for those in the 750-800 range, admissions rates are well below 50%.</p>

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<p>EC's start to make a difference, but so do achievements beyond score boards, GPA and strength of high school curriculum. Being an Olympiad gold medalist will trump most non-academic ECs, for example. Some academic summer camps, such as TASP or RSI are extremely prestigious. In other words, academic excellence is not assessed solely on the basis of what is done in the school or on board tests.</p>

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<p>I agree with afan that high test scores and an excellent transcript is not a guarantee of admission to any particular elite college. These boards are replete of stories of students with perfect academics turned down from top colleges.</p>

<p>Where I don't agree is that somehow EC's would substantially increase chances of admission among similarly qualified applicants at elite colleges. They are not hooks in any way comparable to those of URMs, athletes or legacies. I actually believe that unhooked applicants need a particular stellar academic record to be accepted at elite universities when 40% of slots are already taken by hooked applicants. (Except at MIT and CalTech). </p>

<p>As my D was preparing her applications last year, I analyzed the results for the past 5 years at our fairly large suburban high school. (Many high schools now have data collected in the Naviance system). Every year without exception the top 3-4% were ALL accepted to top 20 schools. They were not necessarily accepted to their first choice because of the luck of the draw but invariably they would be accepted into a college roughly in line with their academic ranking. </p>

<p>From our personal experience and those in our community:</p>

<p>IF
1) You use JHS's rough formula of targeting schools where the student's SAT is within the top 25% level of admitted students SAT scores (For HYPSM these schools would be reaches not matches)
2) Your class rank is in the top 5% or better (top 2% for HYPSM)
3) You apply to ENOUGH schools to increase the odds of admission to at least one elite college (This may mean 10 or more) </p>

<p>THEN your chances of being admitted to at least one of your top choices is very high (80% or greater). </p>

<p>With that approach our DD was admitted to one top 5, three top 10 and eight top 20 schools (based on 18 applications) largely in line with what we had projected using Naviance and the CDS reports. This allowed us to compare financial aid offers as well as allow our DD to choose among several reasonably equivalent schools academically. </p>

<p>A safety school is only necessary if you misjudge your chances of admission (which can easily be avoided by using the CDS and Naviance reports) or fail to apply to enough reach and match schools to increase your odds of admission. </p>

<p>There are enough threads on CC and independent data from College Board supporting the fact that top students invariably get admitted to top colleges independently of any ECs. Improving one's academic ranking (as students from the same high school invariably compete against one another) will have much more significant impact than loading on ECs that most adcoms dismiss anyway. At our HS (competitive, large, public in suburban NY area) only hooked candidates outside of the top 5% stood any chance of acceptance at an elite college.</p>

<p>P.S: I do consider academic awards and competitions as part of the academic record as per Marite's post above not EC's. In most cases, students who get these awards are already in the top 2-3% anyway, so it hardly changes the analysis.</p>

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<p>Afan points up a critical distinction between the admissions process at the most selective schools in the country and everywhere else. EC mania has largely been driven by the perception of the admissions process at HYP etc., where admissions officers have to make distinctions between large numbers of applicants whose academic/testing records are essentially indistinguishable. But having been in academia a long time, I am morally certain that the prime directive even for schools at the (for example) Tufts level has got to be to keep the numbers up. Otherwise, the US News ranking will drop, the president of the university will have a fit, and the director of admissions will lose his job. So for those schools, in some respects the ideal candidate is one who has an unweighted 4.0 with a difficult schedule, 2400 on the SAT, and nothing else on his application that will recommend him to the HYP level of schools.</p>

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<p>
[quote=afan]
making distinctions among the large number of applicants on these grounds gets difficult as they bump up against the truncated range of grades and scores. Then EC's start to make a big difference.[/quota] Yes, but probably only when the student's participation or involvement in those EC's has distinguished him in some way, not simply when there are a few more activities to list, which is the more likely case when the student or parent are simply looking for a way to enhance college chances. The ad com is not helped in making those distinctions among qualified applicants when faced with yet another list of the same types of ECs -- so the student needs something persistent, and outstanding or unusual in order for it to be of much use in admissions. No one is going to get to that point because their mom prods them to build up their college resume... unless mom starts early and is lucky enough to prod their kid into an activity that incites the kid's passions. Which is far more likely if the parental prodding has been done as part of a focus on the child's personal interests and needs than on college admissions.</p>

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<p>I agree with Calmom. Additionally, there is a danger in parents trying to push their kids into EC's that they think will add to their child's chances. You might guess wrong about what any particular school is looking for that year, or what a particular school will find interesting four, three, or two years from now, and you can't predict who else will be applying with those same EC's you think will be a hook. So, if you have a kid who you are really pushing into doing the "right" EC's as part of a "college strategy", you may not be giving him/her any better chance, and may, in fact, push him/her towards the wrong schools.</p>

<p>As I and Calmom said above, work with the kid you have. If you have a kid with a great academic package who hasn't chalked up impressive EC's, look for the schools that value those sorts of kids instead of trying to cram your kid into a school where he/she won't have much chance. If you have a kid who would rather come home and read than be ASB president, find the schools that will value that. If you have a kid who chooses to be ASB president and has the stellar academic piece of the picture, find the schools that will value that. If you have a kid who has a weaker academic record, don't try to push them into a rush of EC's hoping they'll get into a "top" university if they just find the "right" EC -- find the schools where your student will be valued for what they do have to offer. Contrary to popular opinion, there is NO shortage of seats in the academic world, nor is the only place you can get a great education a "top" school. There is a seat in college for EVERY student who wants one, and thousands of colleges to choose from for EVERY student as well.</p>

<p>Kids usually end up happiest at the places where they are valued and feel comfortable and successful, not the ones their parents crammed them into. :)</p>

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<p>Great job explaining what should be the "strategy" parents adopt- maybe it can be paraphrased as "let your kid find their own level". The old "square peg kid won't be happy in a round hole college anyway, so why bother?". But maybe not. Maybe the problem comes in when nobody wants to accept that their kid is not a round hole college kid. ;)</p>

<p>But this I know for sure- a significant number of parents and kids who visit this site are convinced that there is a magic potion that they can slip/forcefeed/cajole into Little Johnny that will improve his chances for acceptance to (what is commonly considered as) the next tier of (what is commonly considered as) prestigious colleges. And their job is to find out what that is and where to buy it, or how to create it, and then the best way to write about it so it won't look so "planned" or contrived . </p>

<p>;) If, for example, the "best" colleges appeared this cycle to be accepting students with pigmented birthmarks on their butts at a greater rate than students with unpigmented birthmarks there would be a mad rush to colorize Little Johnny's rear end , replete with denials that such colorization had anyting to do with admission's strategy, and was simply a gen-you-wine longheld passion Little Johnny had for pigmented posteriors. </p>

<p>Of course the real tragedy is those kids who had no birthmark on their buttocks at all . Those desperate kids and the family's that love them are left to create a birthmark where one never existed and then colorize it . The adcoms can pick out those store-bought "buttmarks" a mile away. Truly depressing. Don't people know that the top schools are looking for all kinds of kids and "bbmk" (brightbuttmarkedkids) usually account for less than 20% of any given class at HYP?</p>

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<p>I got timed out on my edit :(</p>

<p>I wanted to add to this : Maybe the problem comes in when nobody wants to accept that their kid is not a round hole college kid. </p>

<p>To make this:</p>

<p>Maybe the problem comes in when nobody wants to accept that their kid is not a round hole college kid. I mean- he's a late bloomer brain in a jar whose strengths don't show that well in a traditional classroom and is without any ec's of note who doesn't test well on standardized tests and had a few very minor scuffles with the law (no felonies...of record) who only had a problem in his science and math courses because he was bored by incompetent teachers at his high school that incorrectly weights/fails to weight/weighs too much AP courses that he couldn't take because of his long-held and head-long pursuit of mediocrity that, of course, affected his ranking but the val is a slut anyway. Well, that and English. And Gosh, let's not even TALK about history. That teacher had it in for him because Johnny's so political, not in a "volunteer for a candidate" way -just in a speaking out in class "free profane speech" way. It just isn't fair. I know for a fact (because my cousin's accountant's sister's new boyfriend used to go with a guy who had a kid who got into Harvard last year) that hooked - URM, legacy, helmet sports, famous or the children of the famous- kids get in HYP all the time who deserve it less than my kid. It's just not right for Johnny to be judged so harshly. Can't he ever get a fair shot? ;)</p>

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<p>What's a parent to do when they know that Johnny's a Princeton man? Mind you, we've never been to Princeton, per se. My spouse has issues - open and/or closed spaces, gas prices/foreign oil, possible old hate-crime warrants, state-required yellow "sex-offender on board" triangle in the back window - that make it difficult for us to travel, but .. we'll save that discussion for another time. The point is that Johnny's been practicing for the "Eating Clubs" since he was nine. I cry every time I see him (and he's only a freshman) just knowing how his chubby little face will look carrying the shame of rejection. ;)</p>

<p>Edit: bullhorn with Fred Thompson's voice <<<<<curmudgeon. we="" have="" you="" surrounded.="" step="" away="" from="" the="" keyboard.="" keep="" your="" hands="" where="" can="" see="" them.="" slowly="" move="" chair="" back="" desk="" and="" just="" walk="" away.="">>>>>>></curmudgeon.></p>

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<p>I agree the most selective colleges are looking for substantial accomplishment in EC's, not just participation. To have a good chance of admission, one needs excellent academics AND something else. That something else can be athletics (by far the best hook, and the most common one that can greatly reduce the importance of academics), a huge amount of family money, diversity considerations, or likelihood of contributing to EC's on campus. </p>

<p>Most kids who are going to be starters on D1 athletic teams picked up their sports as young children, and have been competing at a high level for years before they started looking at college. If there is any doubt about the sport being their number one interest, then they are not D1 recruit level and the sport is not going to get them into a top D1 university. Some top LAC's also love sports, rarely get true D1 starter level kids, and an outstanding, but not superstar, level athlete can parlay their ability into a place like Williams.</p>

<p>If you have enough money for Yale to care, then you don't need any help from CC.</p>

<p>Diversity actually has much less impact on admissions than it used to, and less than people on CC assume. Bowen has published several books on college admissions and career success. He included historical reviews of the impact of race and ethnicity on admissions prospects, as well as sports and legacy status. Briefly, athletics has increased in importance over the years, and diversity and legacy have decreased.</p>

<p>So... of things that the kid in high school actually can do, in addition to academics, EC's would have the most impact on admissions. If they are not already well on the way to being a D1 level athlete, getting serious in 9th or 10th grade is way too late. Money and diversity are out of their hands. However, being a likely solid member of the orchestra can help. You don't have to be Yo Yo Ma.</p>

<p>Should parents force their kids into academic and EC accomplishment so they can get into top colleges? Doing so shows no respect for the child, can poison the parent/child relationship, and places a distorted value on which college the student attends. On the other hand, it does look like there are a lot of kids at Harvard whose parents did browbeat them into narrow definitions of high school success. If a parent cares more about sending a child to HYP than about the student finding her/his own interests and goals, then there is a case to be made for picking the "best" EC's and cramming down their throats.</p>

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<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/97255-whoever-has-most-aps-wins-4.html#post1278678%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/97255-whoever-has-most-aps-wins-4.html#post1278678&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>He crams an amazing amount of common sense into a brief discussion. It's MIT, so EC's matter perhaps somewhat less than at HYP, but his comments on matching the college to the kid, rather than forcing the kid into the college, are priceless.</p>