<p>For parents - do you and your spouse, or your child's other parent, agree on strategy for preparing your child to apply to college? An example - one parent thinks the kid needs to get more involved in ec's, the other thinks he should concentrate on his courses. DS was getting very good grades and very good test scores, and his rather young and state-school-educated guidance counselor told him that he should be able to get into any school he applied to. Dad took that to mean that DS didn't need to do anything meaningful in his ec's, and that his grades and scores would carry the day in his virtually all-Ivy applications. Meanwhile, I was pushing for more ec involvement because I do not believe that great grades and scores alone garner admission to top schools. Whom did DS listen to? Dad. I hope Dad was right, but I have to wait until the spring to find out.</p>
<p>Well, it's too late to change strategies now, but I hope your son's list included some solid safety schools.</p>
<p>Ditto what coureur said. It's not too late to get some apps in to safety schools. Seriously, you have to do that or you risk your S having no school to attend in the fall.</p>
<p>Have you looked at the thread about the Common Data Sets for different colleges? It's here: <a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/76444-links-common-data-sets-posted-colleges-14.html%5B/url%5D">http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/76444-links-common-data-sets-posted-colleges-14.html</a> I would recommend looking at the CDS for any college to which your S applied and see how he measures up to the students they admit. </p>
<p>Also, if S is applying to top colleges, they tend to be very expensive. Do you have a plan for how you'll pay if S is accepted? Please tell me the GC didn't say, "Oh, he'll get a scholarship for sure!"</p>
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I would recommend looking at the CDS for any college to which your S applied and see how he measures up to the students they admit.
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The problem is, you might see that your scores are "in the range", and assume that you will get in. But thousands of students with identical scores get rejected by the top schools every year. If you go and look at the EA/ED results threads on Yale or Stanford forums, you'll see that there is very little, if any, difference between the "stats" of admitted students vs. deferred/rejected ones.</p>
<p>There are a couple of different questions being posed. It looks like there was a difference in opinion in what types of colleges this student might be a strong candidate for. That looks like the biggest difference.</p>
<p>Re: "strategies" for college admittance. To be honest, I think parents can encourage students to try things, but the EC's and areas of interest need to come from the STUDENT, not the parents. If this student chose the EC's that they chose (or didn't chose) and was happy with those choices as a student, then that is that. </p>
<p>Did the GC encourage applications to all Ivy level schools? Or did the Dad encourage applications to all Ivy schools? What does the STUDENT want?</p>
<p>Yes, we did include a couple of safety schools (my idea), and Dad kept looking at the common data sets, but as one of the posters pointed out, they can be misleading because they don't show what else factored into the admissions. I agree that the ultimate choice of ec's needs to come from the student, but if the student is not particularly ambitious, encouragement needs to come from the parents. If we left it up to DS, he'd come home right after school every day and read or play computer games. DS did want to apply to a number (not necessarily all) of the Ivies, but I've found that wanting to go to these schools and summoning up the drive to do what it takes to get into them can be two different things.</p>
<p>hallomar you are a very wise parent. Good luck. I guess this is one disagreement where you won't mind being proven wrong!</p>
<p>Every family is different in this regard. Some a very involved others take a hands off approach. We happened to be the latter. I think the key issue is not to project our expectations as parents onto our children. And visa versa, we need to bring them down to earth if their expectations are unrealistic.</p>
<p>This thread reminds me that it is important to remember that it is the son or daughter, and not the parent, that is going to college, and that the son or daughter, and not the parent, should "own" their admission strategy. This is not to say that parents shouldn't be involved or give advice - they should - but the primary driver in the process ought to be the student and not the parents.</p>
<p>I know some will consider this heresy here, but I think that people tend to overestimate the value of extracurriculars. The <em>most</em> important factors for admission to ANY college are: strength of high school curriculum, grades in college prep classes, and test scores. This isn't something that is listed on CDS, but I would add that evidence of intellectual curiousity and potential is also very important for most colleges. If you don't have those pieces of the puzzle in place, EC's alone won't pull you in. So, in that sense, I agree with your husband's emphasis on doing well in school as the primary college prep focus.</p>
<p>Another thing that people fail to realize fully is that "EC's" can be more than just formal organized activities. They can include pursuing an intellectual interest on your own, hobbies that you've devoted time to, and developing special talents that may not be typical "EC's." You also don't need an endless list of EC's to get into college. And, that includes the most selective schools. What you do need is to show passion, intellectual curiousity, a drive to excell, independently pursuing interests, etc. But, that can be done in many ways, not just through the typical "join clubs, get leadership roles" routine most folks think of when they hear "extracurriculars". And, of course, you do need to be able to effectively convey your interests and pursuits in your application, recommendations, and interview/interactions with the school. So, while I don't think your son needed to necessarily rush out and load up on club memberships, if he has developed and pursued interests BEYOND just getting good grades, displays some intellectual curiousity and passion BEYOND the classroom, and effectively conveyed that in his applications, he should be OK.</p>
<p>By the way, I have worked with a number of students with stellar grades and test scores, but few traditional EC's who were admitted to top colleges. They did, however, all have some intellectual curiousity or passion that they pursued independently AND they did a pretty good job of getting across in their applications and recommendations. </p>
<p>Of course, no one ever really knows EXACTLY why any student does or doesn't get in to any college --- so, try not to second guess the water under the bridge at this point because, in reality, no one can really "plan" the perfect college admissions strategy (I would actually argue that colleges are turned off by kids who reak of strategic college prep planning). As Courer noted, as long as your son included some solid safe bets on his list, things should work out fine.</p>
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<blockquote> <p>This thread reminds me that it is important to remember that it is the son or daughter, and not the parent, that is going to college, and that the son or daughter, and not the parent, should "own" their admission strategy. This is not to say that parents shouldn't be involved or give advice - they should - but the primary driver in the process ought to be the student and not the parents.<<</p> </blockquote>
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<p>Mam1959, wise words. A real "passion" isn't something you do because your parents tell you it will look good for college. It's something you do because you are DRIVEN to do it, regardless of whether it will "look good for college". Colleges can spot the difference. Instead of pushing their kids to load up on EC's "for college," parents should let their child lead in terms of what interests them, and support that interest if they can. Some are probably reading this and thinking, "my kid HAS no passion! I need to find them a passion!" The truth is, you can't and you will only drive your kid and yourself crazy trying to do so. </p>
<p>Work with the child you have, not the child you want them to be "for college admissions." That may mean dialing back your expectations in terms of getting them into a "top" college, but, really, that is OK.</p>
<p>If we left it up to DS, he'd come home right after school every day and read >></p>
<p>Actually, many colleges love kids who come right home after school every day and read independently. :)</p>
<p>The odds of getting into any Ivy are so slim I would advise not turning your child's life upside down or forcing him into EC's he feels only luke warm about. Unless there are health, legal, or socialization issues who cares what he does with HIS spare time. There are plenty of good schools who recognize that some kids are introspective and/or enjoy computer gaming or other singular activities. Remember the Ivy's routinely reject varsity captains who've aced the SAT.. for the Ivies every kid, and virtually every activity, is a dime a dozen. They'd just as soon have a kid with a passion for collecting insects as a tennis star.</p>
<p>carolyn, what are good ways to get that intellectual curiosity and passion to come across? Is it the essays? It's something I have had on my mind as I've got a freshman who loves to learn on his own. He's teaching himself some programming, reading up about physics, etc. I've been wondering if he needs to do something above and beyond that to be able to show that curiosity, but have to admit it is so nice just the way it is to have this child happily dabbling away at what interests him.</p>
<p>I have to second Carolyn's always-wise-words about passions versus ECs. My D's passion is for obscure punk-emo-electronica music, and I know you're all thinking what I used to think: "What kind of EC is THAT?" (I also used to think - why couldn't she geeked up about something simpler, like orchestra or quiz bowl?)</p>
<p>As it turned out, though, I think her passion actually made her stand out. She displayed her love for music in several ways (like her school radio station and girl scouts, what a combination.) Most of her college essays revolved around this passion as well (bet you don't know how diversity is like Van's Warped Tour....) I'm guessing that there were a few admission readers who remembered as "that punker girl scout", but that's okay - at least they remembered her.</p>
<p>Granted, she wasn't applying to Ivy-caliber schools, but that wasn't her "fit", anyway. She definitely "owned her admission strategy"!</p>
<p>My son was a prime example of the limited ECs but a big passion. He's the classic computer geek. He had exactly two school ECs - he participated in Academic Team and Science Olympiad, but spent most of his time playing with the computer. He had done programming for a mod, done freelance work (both for biology professors and a web programming firm), and taught himself enough that he took AP Computer Science as a freshman. He also spent a lot of time playing games and reading sci fi and fantasy. (The latter probably contributed to his stellar SAT CR score.) He's not a kid who could be pushed into anything. I eventually realized even though there were things I think he should have done, or could have done, the applications he sent in accurately reflected his level of ambition and interests. It was up to the schools to see potential or accomplishment in his activities. In the end he got into four of eight schools. Harvard (where he was no doubt helped by being a legacy) and a top computer science program (Carnegie Mellon) both took him while other top schools (Caltech and MIT) did not.</p>
<p>Carolyn - I will state that there is an exception to your statement regarding extracurricular activities. If a student can be truly exemplary in athletics, while still maintaining high grades and scores, there chances at admission at even the most competitive colleges in the country soars. By truly exemplary - I mean national class - which means in non-revenue sports being in the top 20 or so in your endeavor. From personal experience I found it strange just how welcoming even the most elite schools were. </p>
<p>Don't take this as guidance for anyone, however - I have posted previously about the considerable burdens of being essentially a professional athlete (which is the case at the Division 1 level) while trying to develop a sense of self and academic record in college, and find that whatever glories and opportunities obtain from top level achievement in sports, there is a downside that many athletes and their parents conveniently overlook. Sports are good for their own sake - particularly in terms of confidence and self-expression - and ought to be kept in perspective.</p>
<p>Just a small additional point about CDS numbers:</p>
<p>I believe there is a strong bias inherent in the enrolled-class statistics included in the common data sets. With only a true handful of exceptions, most colleges only enroll less than half of the students they accept (and in many cases much less than that if you factor out early-decision admits). (State flagships may be an exception to this rule for in-state students -- I've never checked.) Logically, a large percentage of the students who are accepted but not enrolled are those with other, equally- or more-attractive options, i.e., stronger applicants. </p>
<p>Therefore, the CDS numbers do not really give an accurate picture of which students a college actually accepts. They are probably heavily weighted towards the bottom half of the accepted-students pool. The median enrolled student on any particular statistical measure is probably solidly in the bottom half all accepted students for that measure. As a general matter, I assume that the top 25% of enrolled students provides a better indication of a "match" for admissions purposes than the middle 50% range.</p>
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carolyn, what are good ways to get that intellectual curiosity and passion to come across? Is it the essays?
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<p>I don't know if this will work for every student or every school, but a friend (who has a CC account and posts fairly often, but I'm not sure if she'll read this) positively devoured advanced scholarly books/texts on biology. She included an extra note on her MIT application where she listed some of the texts she had read, and talked about what she got out of them. She got in.</p>
<p>More often, it's the regular essays, and certain extracurriculars (e.g. an internship in a lab, a particularly good science fair or other academic project) that get it across.</p>
<p>Mam1959 (#17) - Do you think it matters in the application process if a student is a national-level athlete in a sport that isn't played in college? Now that my daughter is done with college applications, I have some leftover momentum and I'm starting to wonder how things will go with my 9th grade son. I won't be talking with him about college stuff yet - I'm just pondering how his process might be different. My daughter participated in a sport that is played in college and it definitely helped her get in to her first-choice school.</p>