<p>Yes, Blossom. (#117) My daughter refused at first to look at all women's colleges, but now she's as happy as can be at Smith. Visiting really taught her a lot about what she wanted in a college. (At first, every college we visited was her new favorite, but, as the months wore on, she began to mentally rank them.)</p>
<p>and LB needs to broaden who he talks to, seems his circle couldnt be bothered learning about the hundreds of wonderful schools</p>
<p>and he seems more concerend with impressing his friends than what is best for his daughter</p>
<p>I find LB to be very disturbing and how he treats his daughter very sad</p>
<p>and don't give me that culture garbage, this girl will never be good enough and no matter what she accomplishes, she will be a failure in daddy's eyes, because he needs to impress his friends</p>
<p>sorry if I sound harsh, I often do, but this is not right</p>
<p>LB - My brother-in-law may be an 'outlier', but I will convey his experiences. He got his undergraduate degree, a B.A. in Psychology (horrors!) from Colorado State (more horrors!). Despite this modest start and being the most UNpackaged of applicants, he was accepted to Stanford Law, with merit scholarship money, where he eventually became Editor of the Law Review. Upon graduation he clerked for a Colorado Supreme Court Justice and worked for the highest profile firm in Denver. He could have stayed with this firm and now be a partner making a bazillion bucks. But it wasn't satisfying to him emotionally....and this satisfaction is more important than many are willing to admit! </p>
<p>He eventually left the big firm, bought a small practice in the Sangre de Cristos of southern Colorado. He does a LOT of pro bono (which he loves) because this is a very poor part of the state; but he also gets to fish, golf and ski while having a very satifying career. Frankly, I think he's got it made.</p>
<p>My brother-in-law is an active alumnus and conducts interviews for Stanford every year. He's had many conversations with former professors who are now old friends. This is exactly what he told me they have said to him...'Please don't send us a bunch of perfect SAT machines. We want students who have passion and who can think independently, not students obsessed with their performance.' My brother-in-law told me this because he badly wanted my d to apply to Stanford and I was skeptical of her chances because she had only a (gasp) 2250 SAT (I think...can't exactly remember now). We'll never know if she would have been admitted to Stanford because she never applied. She wanted to head east, not west, for college and we let her make that call. But I think his advice was so spot on.</p>
<p>So several points...</p>
<p>Perfect or near perfect SATs are not the only path into an elite college. Just because this is desirable to you doesn't make it desirable to colleges. There is no disrespect intended in this statement btw.</p>
<p>Highly selective undergrad doesn't guarantee top grad, med or law program. WUSTL takes more non-WUSTL undergrads into their med program. Colorado State grads do get into Stanford Law more often than you think.</p>
<p>Making big bucks does not make one happy, nor does not making big bucks make you a failure!</p>
<p>I agree with everything you said, Citygirlsmom. </p>
<p>While I'm still not convinced that this isn't a troll, it's so clear to me that "Dad's" concerns are all about HIS dreams and desires to impress friends and family. I'm sure he loves his daughter; she sounds like a wonderfully accomplished young person. But after reading numerous posts and the positions he takes, I still find myself shaking my head at the perfection-at-all-costs mentality. Glad it's going on in HIS house and not mine!!</p>
<p>"We" need a backup plan? What about letting your daughter figure that out? I'm stunned anyone would reduce a child or her success or failure to one test score? If that were the case, half the students here wouldn't go to college. If she doesn't do well on the SAT have her try the ACT. It's a different test.</p>
<p>"Overall, those who get elite educations will have a better life."</p>
<p>LB:</p>
<p>I think that we need to distinguish between pushing your daughter to excel and pushing her to gain admission to an elite college.</p>
<p>Frankly, I wish that I had done more of the former with my children. However, my understanding is that the data does not show any particular long-run advantage to having attended and graduated from an elite undergraduate school. True, on the average those who graduate from (for example) HYP do better than those who graduate from flagship state U. But I believe that the best studies show that that advantage reflects the fact that HYP students had much stronger profiles going in than those from the state U's (the reverse of garbage in, garbage out).</p>
<p>You should not push because you are going to give your daughter a nervous breakdown, and she will feel she is never good enough, and will live with that the remainder of her life.</p>
<p>Just so you could feel good.</p>
<p>LB, a cautionary tale:
My husband's great-great grandfather was one of the "elite" class which you so admire. #1 in his graduating Yale class and a valedictorian. Congressman and U.S. senator. His oldest son went to Yale, expected by all to follow in his footsteps. One month into Yale the son cashed a check for $200 and disappeared. He married and divorced twice and died estranged from his family and young son, who also grew up to attend Yale and abandon his family. Another son went to Yale, ran off and eloped with an heiress and plowed through 3 more wives before dying alone and penniless at age 58. This life of elite prestige produced several generations of broken families, alcoholism and problems. </p>
<p>Careful what you wish for - material success without development of the soul can produce some very unhappy people. I feel proud for my son that he is accomplishing much on his own, and on his own terms. Let your daughter be the best person she can be, and stop comparing yourself so much to those who have more. You have a lot, but you sound spiritually bankrupt.</p>
<p>Why would anyone waste 1 minute of their useful life trying to convince the OP of anything.</p>
<p>The problem he wants to solve is making a bad SAT score go away. He doesn't want to solve the problem of seeing college admissions differently.</p>
<p>He is not listening and he doesn't care. Why should we?</p>
<p>LB - I just looked at your original post again and noticed you mention a visit to WashU. I thought it might ease your mind to know about my daughter who was notified of her acceptance at Washington University March 15th. Throughout high school she was never pushed in any direction, we let her chart her own course. She took the classes she wanted, participated in the sports she wanted, and got involved in only the EC's SHE wanted. She was a 2X state qualifying tennis player, but she quit soccer after her freshman year. She had been a soccer player for 8 years, but it just wasn't fun anymore. She was a 3X state orchestra qualifier (loves her violin!), 3rd chair this year. She is the NHS President, radically improving the club, but quit the class board after two years (they didn't get anything done). Started a small local fundraiser to raise money for research of a chronic disease. Her fundraising progressed to the national level, and she ended up being a lobbyist for the group in Washington, D.C. All of these things happened "organically", because she enjoyed doing them. They also made her a very well rounded, interesting college applicant. She only took ONE AP class (there are only two offered at her very mediocre high school) and since she is still enrolled in this class, she won't take the test until May - thus the score had no bearing on her admittance. She is very artistic and I often encouraged her to drop an "academic class" from the list of classes she intended to take so she could squeeze in art. I think art provided her with an important oasis. She had a 2200 SAT (800CR, 700M, 700W) and a 33 ACT. She is a National Merit Finalist with a PSAT score of 230 (so her SAT was lower than per PSAT). Could she have done better in math and writing if she had taken the test again? Maybe, maybe not. It was her score, thus it was her decision if she was satisfied with that score. She was - end of conversation. She did not want to take SAT IIs - she was just not interested, but did understand that making that choice would exclude her from being able to apply to certain schools. She understood and SHE made that choice. She said that she would present herself to the schools she ultimately chose and it was up to them to decide if she was right for their program. She chose carefully, only applying to 4, and as of March 15th, she was accepted at all 4.</p>
<p>Anitaw, in all fairness I did "waste" my time with a suggestion, trying to be polite -- and it looks like LB and daughter are doing exactly what I - and perhaps others-- suggested:
[quote]
Based on the kind advices, my D and I agreed on this plan forward: request a hand scoring of her SAT I, focus on AP classes and get A?s to enhance the transcripts, take the SAT II of the same subjects as AP so D will not need to put too much work, and sign up ACT with writing for June 9th. She will take SAT I again next October if necessary.
[/quote]
(I didn't say anything about the AP classes, but I agree that d. should do her best in those classes and than an enhanced GPA is more valuable than an improved SAT scores. So I do think that LB is open to suggestions.</p>
<p>I think LB is a real poster and don't see a point in piling it on. If I am mistaken and he is a troll... then the appropriate response would be to ignore his posts rather than insulting him. (Trolls generally go away if they can't stir up trouble).</p>
<p>
Because it won't make much difference. The problem with the "stats" you see posted for the girl who got into HYP is that she probably would have gotten in with scores 100 points lower all around -- the elite schools don't make distinctions among the scores in the higher ranges. If you go to the threads for the Ivy League colleges on this board and browse to see the stats of admitted students, you will see a much wider range of scores. </p>
<p>I think that it is great for a parent to encourage a child to do her best, but the problem we all have is with the fact that you are doing more -- you are pushing. You mentioned in another thread that your daughter was doing well and very happy at a school in another district, but you felt that it was important for her to attend a better school -- so you move to a district where the high school offers more APs and is more competitive, but now you say that your daughter is not so happy and not doing as well as before. </p>
<p>So you have already made the mistake once of undercutting your daughter's happiness by pushing for more... we hope that you won't make that mistake again. </p>
<p>Some kids do well under stress, but most do not. Some really blossom and grow when they are nurtured, rather than pushed, and feel that they have some freedom to make their own choice and take some risks in their lives. Personally, given the fact that your daughter scored higher in 8th grade and on the PSAT, I think that her relatively lower score on the SAT probably does reflect the stress she feels about the test results. She probably did better in 8th grade because it wasn't important then, so she didn't get nervous during testing. If she thinks her life and future rests on the test scores, or is worried about disappointing her father... she is likely to continue to test below her abilities, because she will tend to make more mistakes as long as she feels emotionally tense when going into the test.</p>
<p>I've always tested very well -- and in fact was able to go to a top-ranked law school primarily because of a high LSAT score -- but my "technique" was always to make a point of relaxing for several days before the test, and get a good night's sleep. I just felt that I did better that way. </p>
<p>Anyway, I am sure it will work out well for your daughter in the end and a year from now she will probably have plenty of good colleges to choose from.
[quote]
Overall, those who get elite educations will have a better life. I got my under from China and Ph. D. from one of the lowest ranking U in US. Look where I end up.
[/quote]
It looks to me like you have ended up doing very well. However, I'm pretty sure that I am experiencing a "better" life than you, even though I make only around $50K a year. Because I'm really happy with my life -- I own a house and a car and have enough to pay my bills, and I have a job that I can do from home and set my own hours, and I am in good health -- so I feel very fortunate and I honestly do not care if some people have better houses and better cars, etc. The point is: it isn't about money, it's about attitude. Your daughter will be able to have a wonderful life if her attitude is to enjoy her life and to be satisfied if she has enough to meet her basic needs and a career that is emotionally fulfilling, and someday a spouse and children who give her joy. Her SAT scores and where she goes to college have very little impact one way or another on that future.</p>
<p>LB if it makes you feel any better/put SATs into perspective, I was accepted into several top-tier colleges with a math score below 600!! Your kid is fine as long as she's not pressured into putting all of her energy into one, dumb little test!</p>
<p>I have read all my posts on CC one more time very briefly and I think I get this thing figured out. </p>
<p>Most of you are ASSUMING the ONLY thing I care is the test score and that I kept push my D for a better scores. You are all saying that test scores are not that important and I agreed many times.</p>
<p>The truth is that my D is a very well around person and she does many wonderful things besides studying from morning to morning. She does music, she participates in sports (it is very difficult for a 4ft 10 girl to excel in any sport), she is very active in the key club, and she has grow her hair for the past several months so she could donate them for cancer patients. It will literally take a page to list all the wonderful things she has done in HS. D had been in the new school for less than a year and the QC nominated her (only one from her HS) to represent the junior class for a citywide civil service award. As a matter of the fact, she signed up volunteering work the Friday before her SAT, instead of studying for it. And that is my problem with her. I want her to focus on the test, which is one of top 4 or 5 most important things for college admission. </p>
<p>Again, the two things D does not have in her resume is some fantastic standard test scores and some decent research experiences. She was taking the test too light and the results confirmed that. She is capable of good scores and that is why I was upset. If D tried her best and 1600 is all she could get out of 2400, I will not love one bit less nor would I ever be upset. </p>
<p>Many on CC are kind and willing to help. On the other hand, I am badly offended by some of the replies. Knowing my D got a set of unexpectedly low SAT, MWP deliberately pump their chest about their D got into this or that with a 2200 SAT. What is your point? Had my D gotten a score like that, we would not have this thread. You are putting a knife straight into my heart - take that " my D got 2200 and got in WashU". "Your D got poor SAT so she will not even have a chance. " That is mean!!!!</p>
<p>Calmom, you said “The problem with the "stats" you see posted for the girl who got into HYP is that she probably would have gotten in with scores 100 points lower all around -- the elite schools don't make distinctions among the scores in the higher ranges.” Do you agree that she would have a lesser chance if her scores were 300 or 400 points lower? And that is exactly my D got. You also said you got a better life than me – probably true. But that is an apple to orange comparison. My wife does not even need to work. Go ask Caldad what does he think if you stop bring home income.</p>
<p>Look, This is what I have been trying to say. Standard test scores are important parts of the admission equation. To have a chance to get into an elite U or get high merit aid, one must achieve a certain minimum score. Once you got that, a 50 or so point difference is not significant, i.e. 2250 against a 2300 or a 2300 against a 2350. If you know your child is capable of getting at least 2200 if she applies herself, will you be upset if the score came back way below that?</p>
<p>Our house's Rules for Standardized Test Taking -- </p>
<h1>1. No Studying or Activities the Night Before. It's an evening of computer games, a good dinner, dessert, and an early bedtime with a good book.</h1>
<h1>2. All Testing Materials Are Assembled The Night Before. Batteries are checked, pencils sharpened, watch located, admission ticket printed, snacks assembled. Helps to ensure a stress-free test-morning routine.</h1>
<h1>2. No Testing Without a Good Breakfast. I will actually cook for these occasions (brownies the night before, hot breakfast the morning of the test). This is significant because DH usually cooks!</h1>
<h1>3. When It's Over, It's Over. No dissecting the test, no hypothesizing over what one scored. Tell me how it went, as much as you want to share, and then we'll leave it alone until the scores come in.</h1>
<h1>4. You Have No Plans After the Test. "Oh, after the test I have to go to orchestra rehearsal/soccer game/Olympiad competition" serves as a distraction from your task of the day -- taking the test.</h1>
<h1>5. Minor Corollaries: No prepping for PSATs taken before junior year. No SATs before junior year. Prep enough to know the format of the test and one's ability to finish within the time constraints. (Amount of prep may vary for each kid.) Spread APs out over as much time as possible. I would much rather my freshman take one AP this year and two next year rather than have him try to cram those three (all of which he wants to take, as they are in his major areas of interest) into junior and senior year, when there will be IB exams, SATs, applications, etc.</h1>
<p>Our goal is to have a relaxed, calm atmosphere that enables our kids to chill out and do well. So far, so good.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Your rules look fine, but let me tell you a story.</p>
<p>I was scheduled to take the GMAT on a Monday. On Friday night, I played poker with friends and had two or three beers (I was 23). About 1:30 am I was on my way to bed and for no particular reason I checked the registration ticket for the GMAT and found out that it was Saturday instead of Monday. And it started in seven hours at a testing site about 45 minutes away. On the way to the test, my car broke down on the freeway. I jumped out, grabbed my toolbox out of the trunk, fixed the broken clutch linkage, and got back on the road. I walked into the test center just as the proctor was saying, "Pick up your pencils and begin." He handed me the materials and let me take the test. I had grease up to my elbows, I was angry and frustrated, and I was working on about five hours of sleep.</p>
<p>When I took the LSAT a month later, I reviewed prep materials the afternoon before, had a good dinner, spent the evening reading, and went to bed early. Since I was living on campus, I was able to stroll across the park to the test center, where I arrived a half-hour early after eating a good breakfast.</p>
<p>I scored exactly the same percentile on both tests.</p>
<p>I draw no conclusions from this little story.</p>
<p>LB, two things: the difference between boys and girls and their response to stress and Counting Downs rules.
1. Boys release adrenaline when stressed; girls acetylcholine. Boys get the fight or flight and improved brain performance; girls the opposite. (See Leonard Sax, MD PhD 'Why Gender Matters') The pros in this field I.e. women's colleges try to take some of the stress emphasis off of exams, and they get improved performance. Try to get her to relax. Hence some of CD's rules.
2. Rest, diet etc. Extremely important for girls, perhaps more so than for boys. My D had 227 on the PSAT; took the SAT in OCT got 2200 Cr800 M720 W680, about what you would predict; retook in Jan in an attempt to improve the writing. She was coming off a 4 day bible camp where she was a group leader and averaged, I'm guessing, 6 hrs of sleep a night; came back at midnight the night before the SAT. In the middle of the first section the girl seated next to her threw up not once but twice. She went down at least 50 points in each section.</p>
<p>My formula is to follow CD's rules about diet and rest, take some practice tests to: 1 learn what mistakes you are prone to make; and 2 make the tests less intimidating. When taking the practice tests don't emphasize the timing aspect. Your D has the knowledge and ability. We need to get her to relax a little.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Calmom, you said ?The problem with the "stats" you see posted for the girl who got into HYP is that she probably would have gotten in with scores 100 points lower all around -- the elite schools don't make distinctions among the scores in the higher ranges.? Do you agree that she would have a lesser chance if her scores were 300 or 400 points lower?
[/quote]
I meant 100 points less on each test -- your daughter has 760 math. I think that if her combined score is 2150 that it will not be much different in the long run than if her combined score is 2300. Her academics (grades, courses taken) and the other activities you listed are the most important.
[quote]
You also said you got a better life than me ? probably true. But that is an apple to orange comparison. My wife does not even need to work. Go ask Caldad what does he think if you stop bring home income.
[/quote]
You missed my point: you have a great life, but you aren't satisfied with it because you are constantly comparing yourself to others. I am happy with my life because I appreciate what I have. I am not married and I support myself; I love my job and would be bored out of my mind if I didn't work. </p>
<p>I am also very happy with my kids and I do not think it is my job to decide what they are capable of. I would have like my daughter to score higher on the SAT and ACT -- and I thought that her scores would hurt her chances at the schools she wanted. But I also found plenty of good colleges where her scores were fine, and where she was offered merit aid. It turned out that my daughter got into the colleges where I thought her scores were too low, anyway. But if it hadn't happened, she would have had several excellent colleges to choose from. </p>
<p>The point we are all trying to make is that you simply are placing too much importance on the test scores. The plan you have now is a good one: if your daughter does very well on the ACT, she can submit those scores instead. If she still has difficulty with the tests, she can consider that when she chooses which colleges to apply to. She can still apply to the same colleges you are looking at, but she can also add on some more safeties. If my daughter could get merit aid offered from well-known colleges with an ACT of 28, then I am sure that your daughter will have plenty of excellent colleges to choose from.</p>
<p>LB - You also missed my point completely, and got pretty hostile in the process!! Go on the WashU forum on this site and look ONLY at the test scores of the kids who were WAITLISTED and REJECTED this year. My daughter's SAT scores are BELOW many, many of those students. As many others have said, if your daughter has all the other components of a well rounded college applicant, you are needlessly worrying about ONE component, the SAT.</p>