Positive Effects of Helicoptering on College Students

Parents Forum
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<p>I see both sides of the argument; to my mind both a valid. I think VA has a good solution in creating Thomas Jefferson High, a magnet school that draws kids from many school districts and probably surpasses most private schools with math/science offerings. Same could be done in humanities and fine arts, as NYC does.</p>

<p>I also think financial resources of parents make a difference. If affluent school district parents can provide enrichment. I understand that there are brilliant kids like Marite's son who need more. Bus them to college for multivariable calculus if there is one near enough. But I agree that it is not realistic for schools to provide teaching for one or two kids.</p>

<p>The English classes were a joke for both my kids. Each won the English award when he/she graduated hs. Both got notes in their year books to the effect of "You should have taught this course." I think it's sadder for the other kids than mine; they needed quality instruction more than mine did. I would not expect the district to provide a class beyond AP English, but I would expect the level of discourse in AP English to accomodate everyone; it didn't. </p>

<p>Friend had a daughter who sings. Is in opera program. Was chronically bitter than voice program at school was not enough for her D. I expected to provide private lessons in music. Neighboring school district gives a class in composition. I had to pay for it. However, neighboring district has cut policy for performance groups. Many kids just don't make it into the orchestra. Huh? This is high school. I would rather my kids attended a school that gave opportunity to everyone than spent its money organizing a composition class for my kid and maybe one or two others. I don't want my elite district to start raising taxes so I can't afford to live here (I am very comfortable here) and I don't want to see a tiered system in which only the super achieving are catered to as exists in neighboring districts</p>

<p>BTW: Our more egalitarian approach has sent kids to Harvard, Princeton, Yale, etc. </p>

<p>Perhaps parents could arrange a cooperative to trade skills to advance kids. Our district has enough physicists (Brookhaven National Lab) living here to provide as much physics as any kid could possibly do. Then because of a university there are parents with every skill set. And doctors. </p>

<p>Hired teachers often don't have the achievement level of the parents.</p>

<p>Inner city schools and rural schools pose different problems. Inner city schools do well with magnet programs. Rural schools can encourage on-line courses which is opening up an entire world of education.</p>

<p>I think we can accomodate everyone without sparring about shrinking pot. Bright kids tends to be able to benefit from many kinds of instruction and don't require the extremely labor intensive set-ups of a special ed classroom. If we get more creative everyone can have his/her needs met and everyone should have his/her needs met.</p>

<p>Society certainly benefits from the nurturing of future talent. It's not all only to the benefit of the individual.</p>

<p>Wow! Badly fractured syntax. Too lazy to correct this morning. Mea culpa.</p>

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<p>blossom: The private boys' schools in my district were more sports-crazed than the public schools, and the girls' schools were academically inferior - I knew a girl who transfered out of one of them into my public high school as a 10th grader and had to take 9th grade math, science, and computer classes (and struggled in those). There were a couple of secular, coed private schools that seemed to get it right, but they weren't any better academically than the better public schools, and worse than some of them.</p>

<p>I think geomom's got it right about GFG's district. I think that making the school redo its general curriculum for the sake of a few is silly, but finding something to challenge the kids who are ready for it? Sounds like paradise.</p>

<p>I do remember the problems of how if one kid gets an accommodation, everyone's parents want it. When I was in 3rd grade, my parents convinced the school to put me into the 4th grade math class. Others expressed resentment. But, you know, their kids' math scores weren't as high.</p>

<p>I maxed out school French offerings after sophomore year. I had no private tutoring...I had ended up a year ahead in middle school French because when I moved to the area in 6th grade I was between middle school French I and II, and was put in II, leaving me with independent study as an 8th grader. So I entered high school in AP French. I took Medieval French Lit at the public university across the street under a school program, and then did independent study as a senior.</p>

<p>I might suggest that magnet programs are an excellent way to satisfy the needs of gifted kids, if done well.</p>

<p>To get back on topic...I think that "helicoptering" with a child in the primary grades is a bit different than helicoptering with a college student. A seven-year old can't reasonably be expected to make life choices or advocate for herself, even with the aid of parental advice. A college student should.</p>

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<p>GFG, I could make all the same complaints that you're making about gifted kids or these "special programs" (and again, by claiming that parents "only" do this to show up other parents, you're showing your biases) about the programs that allow IEPs or the small class breakout sessions for your daughter and other kids with learning disabilities. Do you really believe that parents don't "game" that system, too? Do you really think that every mild "learning disability" is real? If your d's disability isn't obvious and isn't serious, don't you think that other parents might think that you got her that help "to give her an advantage"? And I could argue that we're wasting money trying to bring kids who can't handle it "up to speed", when we should be educating our talented kids, who will become our leaders and inventors and innovators, up to their full potential. Why are special ed kids entitled to "maximum benefit in the least restrictive environment" while other kids, non-special ed kids, are entitled by law only to a building and a chair? (Please understand that I am playing devil's advocate here; I am not seeking to turn this into a flame war between gifted and special ed kids.)</p>

<p>My kid could also have benefitted from a small group breakout, but she wasn't entitled to it. And if she needed or even just wanted enrichment, be damned sure that I would have moved heaven and earth to get it for her. (We moved to a school system in which much of the curriculum was geared for that enrichment. And yes, I pay through the nose in property taxes. That was the choice I made rather than sending her to private school.) If getting my then-minor child the services she needs or could use is "helicoptering", then yes, I'm a helicopter. And damned proud of it too!</p>

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<p>In my area savvy parents know who the "right" pediatricians are... the ones who will refer to a sympathetic psychologist, speech pathologist, pediatric neurologist, all of whom are generous with the "special needs of unknown origin" diagnosis. I don't begrudge the kids whatever instruction or accomodations can be made for them; I do get annoyed with these parents who somehow think that the district is "wasting money" by teaching BC Calc in HS to a class of 8 kids. Why is someone else's kid not entitled to a small class (which is not limited in enrollment, by the way.... 8 kids were the only ones who showed up but the teacher would be happy to accomodate 30) if your kid gets a pull out or private enrichment every day since you're claiming a mild auditory processing disorder which can't be documented and doesn't seem to have had any adverse affect?</p>

<p>Again- not to bash the kids-- but helicoptering is what other parents do; I'm just advocating for my own kids needs, right???? Sadly, in our litigious society it is easy for parents to sue a district when their special needs kid isn't getting appropriate accomodation; there is no recourse when a talented kid is sitting in a highly inappropriate classroom day after day learning nothing. Yes, the kid could be taking Yearbook or Pottery instead of learning physics. But would the special needs parents take offense at being told that their kid should be learning how to make change or wipe down tables in the cafeteria instead of learning math or reading novels? Of course they would... and rightly so. Why should someone's gifted kid be taking arts and crafts????</p>

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<p>They sent the bus from the High School to get my kid from middle school everyday. In High School they provided a computer, an IP, and a phone line to the Stanford/Epgy tutors (we bought the course). In English they allowed my D and two others to take Brit lit , a 200 college course, rather than the dual-credit course offered in the Handbook. </p>

<p>I thought those things were reasonable. I did feel bad about the middle school principal, who found himself driving to the high school more than once. His response to me was "I do it on one end of the spectrum. I'm certainly going to do what I can on the other end." That was good enough for us and way more than we expected. </p>

<p>Of course I don't know where those lines are that folks talk about between overachiever and gifted and between gifted and truly gifted. LOL. My guess is some would put my D in each group. No matter. Whatever floats their boat. ;)</p>

<p>Let's remember that a lot of these Doogie's come from very different places than their classmates. I know , even at my D's level , whatever that level may be, that her homelife - with two college educated parents who read and talked to her as an adult - gave her a signicant headstart compared to her classmates. The 8 years of Montessori didn't hurt either.;) But I know that some kids we knew whose parents were college prof's provided even more to their kids.</p>

<p>The kids I'm most impressed with are those that rise above their beginnings and catch and pass those with all the aids to learning. It seems most top schools and most top scholarships value that , too. I think that is as it should be.</p>

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<p>RE:#48 and #49.
There may be parents who coach their kids to a fare thee well; but such kids, without natural ability, are unlikely to need radical acceleration. I have also heard of the competition among parents to have their kids accepted into G&T programs. But, again, these are good only for students needing to work at most at 2 or 3 grade levels above their age peers, if that. </p>

<p>But you seemed to take exception to accommodations for students who need far more acceleration than that. My S's 6th grade teachers were agreed that radical acceleration was needed to keep him and the rest of the class out of trouble. I've already posted that lack of challenging math led him to fly origami planes in class, egged on by his classmates. This proved very disruptive, but the teachers were unable to provide him more challenging math, and telling him to twiddle his thumbs for 40 of the 45 minutes period was not an option. One teacher tried to enlist him as an assistant, but he replied, quite accurately, that he was not good at explaining things that were blindingly obvious to him.</p>

<p>At the time, he was able to walk by himself from his k-8 school to the high school, and we drove him to evening classes at the Extension School. I'll bet, though, that if he had needed transportation, the school would have been very happy to provide it to prevent more disruptive behavior.</p>

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<p>Marite - I guess I am lucky my son was only 2 or 3 or 4 grade levels above his peers in math, LOL, because he never became disruptive. I actually would have been sympathetic to him if he had been disruptive for sitting through years of drills on math facts that he knew as well as any adult. Maybe if he had been a little more disruptive, the school would have taken a little more action to provide him with appropriate math instruction!</p>

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<p>Sigh! None of us in my family is gifted in math. Adequate? Yes. Gifted no.</p>

<p>However, even less is done for kids gifted in the Humanities. I don't even think that concept exists. I was reading Being and Nothingness and Being and Time when I was ten without anyone to talk to, and reading Rimbaud in French when I was thirteen (self taught from just basic French classes in junior high.) When I got 800 on verbal SAT's people thought I might have something there, but I'm sure I could have by 6th grade. Some of this has changed a bit, but not much. Fortunately, books need no teachers. Most of the material I teach I was never taught, so I became a prof to have someone to talk to about it! </p>

<p>Math abilities have the wonderful attribute of being quantitatively testable, and they are considered more useful for society at large.</p>

<p>I still find them awesome; my post should not be taken any other way.</p>

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<p>There are definitely special ed. parents who game the system. I'd call them helicopter parents too and would have the same criticisms for them as for those on the other end. For example, from a public policy standpoint not a motherly one, I would not advocate spending a million dollars to teach a severely disabled individual how to press a lever on the near negligible chance he may one day press a lever in a factory, yet that is what some children are entitled to by law. I'd much rather that money go to teach the bright and gifted. </p>

<p>But those are side issues to the original topic. I used them only to try to demonstrate that tactics, attitude, and reasonableness of objectives are what determine whether the parental involvement is appropriate or not, helicoptering or not. What I've been trying to do is put a finger on what constitutes appropriate, interactive parenting which seeks to stimulate a child and guide him toward success with the help and cooperation of others(and that could include advocating for GT, pull-outs, university classes or whatever if needed) versus the type of aggressive, selfish, meddling, parenting which makes the parent himself responsible and all others around the child obligated to guarantee the child's success, happiness and comfort, and if necessary do so to the detriment of others.</p>

<p>A special ed. parent who demands that her low functioning child be in algebra class with a private aid constantly murmuring instructions to him because he doesn't understand anything the teacher is saying, and then demands he also receive math tutoring and homework help services etc. to allow him to succeed in the regular class even though he clearly lacks the ability to learn algebra yet, and does this merely because kids might tease him or look down on the parent if he were in special ed., is helicoptering in my book. That is not truly helping the child to succeed, it's bullying people into going to excessive lengths because my kid just has to do well and everyone has to help him no matter what the cost.</p>

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<p>GFG- I think we're on the same page then. Agree that the helicoptering can be egregious on both sides of the coin... but while I know many parents who successfully advocate for special needs kids and get outrageous accomodations, our district is pretty close-minded to accomodations for kids at the other extreme. Your taxes are probably higher than mine!</p>

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<p>That most of the parents who spend their time on this board, especially after their kids have headed off to college, are helicopter material. I think I use this board as an outlet for my helicopter tendencies, so that I don't do the real helicoptering.</p>

<p>I teach high school at the area magnet for math and technology. The vast majority of our parents are very involved and supportive. And then there's that one percent. Calling conferences on every letter grade lower than an A. Demanding that exceptions be made (Susie got a 0 because she didn't turn in her paper? Well, can she do it now? No? Two hours later you walk out of the conference, exhausted. aargh). The worst part, and the part the parents don't understand? When every word a teacher says to a student will be misquoted, and anything the teacher says to him is misconstrued and used as ammo, just how likely is it that the teacher is going to spend extra time after school helping that child without a witness present taking dictation?</p>

<p>My son called yesterday asking me to help him choose which sub-specialty to major in within his major. I told him he was an extraordinarily gifted young man. I told him that he should follow his passion, and choose the route that will bring him fulfillment and maximize the use of his gifts. That's my job as a mom. (and the truth, so that works out well!!) :-)</p>

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<p>mom2three, Don't mean to pick at you, but
haven't you been concerned with issues of your son's scheduling of classes and asking posters the best way to proceed with his degree plans? How is that different than "most of the parents who spend their time on this board, especially after their kids have headed off to college". I'm not getting it. </p>

<p>But I personally have no trouble with you checking out the options his school has. I do the same. If other people think that's helicoptering, so be it. Right?</p>

<p>D uses me as a sounding board about her schedule but I don't pick the classes. Heck, I don't even know what "Histology" is. LOL. I think that's perfectly fine. It's not bad to have a dialogue. It's bad to make their choice for them, or to manipulate their choice till it IS your choice. IMO.</p>

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<p>"I think I use this board as an outlet for my helicopter tendencies, so that I don't do the real helicoptering."</p>

<p>I am including myself in that "the parents who spend their time on this board, especially after their kids have headed off to college" - I thought I was clear on that. And I do use these boards as an outlet... While I have asked folks here about choices of majors, etc., believe it or not I haven't communicated the results of these online conversations to my son. Digging here satisfies my need to be elbow-deep in my boys' lives - without actually BEING elbow-deep, if you know what I mean.
So, if you mean that my post was the pot calling the kettle black, I couldn't agree more!</p>

<p>:-)</p>

<p>Mom2three
AKA - pot</p>

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<p>Glad to meet you Pot. My name is clearly and unashamedly Kettle.</p>

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<p>quote from the article:</p>

<p>Students with helicopter parents "trumped their peers on every measure we use," says Indiana University's George D. Kuh, survey director</p>

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<p>Wanted to add my comments, but first feel I have to get my two cents worth in on the GT issues, starting with post#33, TheGFG. You obviously do not live in Wisconsin. Of course some students are sent from the middle to the HS for some classes- it's a lot cheaper than providing the APPROPRIATE EDUCATION EVERY CHILD DESERVES by hiring extra teachers for those few children in their school. The state also has a learning options program for students needing courses not offered by their high school- this could be through their local college- public or private, or local tech school, or even paying the tuition for 12 credits away from home (parents pay room, board, books, transportation). There is no reason a family should have to pay extra to get the appropriate education- one size does not fit all, an alternative would be for your children to fail because the curriculum had to meet the pace of the highly gifted. Around here the public schools are much better than the few, usually religious, private schools. From what I've inferred on the board it seems in some areas the well off parents abandon their public schools for private schools, they do not insist on a high quality available to all students (and many public school costs are incurred for the special services that private schools can ignore). There, that was my soapbox rant.</p>

<p>On to the helicopter parent. Son won't let me. And now he's finally turned 18 (in his second year away at college) so I have done my job of getting him to adulthood- he is not required to have us in his life (likewise, we are not required to do things for him, it goes both ways... I imagine most parents went through this while their children were still home, a whole other, interesting topic of adult children- we are still in each other's lives). I am guilty of having the time and interest to explore his school, my alma mater, online. Last spring I e-mailed the various involved depts' appropriate people when the timetable came out with a time conflict in the 3rd semester of two 3 semester intro honors courses (needed to take all 3 semesters, I'm trying to make this short and skipping tons of info) they had invited him to take via a letter sent to admitted HS seniors. The upshot of things was that the last prof to get back to me, about two days later, didn't see any conflict as they had already fixed things by the time he checked on it. They may have taken care of things without my input, but, I was amazed at how nice and fast the involved dept Honors advisors profs were at making needed changes (the Honors program flunky, on the other hand, didn't get it...it pays to go to the top/spread the news. Also, I'm afraid I may not have been able to keep anonymity for son, despite different names- oh, well, watch out for those caring Honors alumni taxpayers). This time, he and the others affected are on their own for resolving a desired/needed course conflict (considering the thousands of courses it is not surprising glitches happen). I'll bet the math/physics depts work things out, the two are "hand in glove", unlike most other fields. Last year I was upset because the students got into a situation with the presumption they could do all 3 semesters, this year it's a different situation, with no promises made (pardon me all lawyers- we could waste a lot of time on contract legalities, or lack thereof...).</p>

<p>There's a whole book called "Letting Go"- found out about it on this board last year, worth getting from the library. I like hearing that I'm not the only parent who is interested in their children after HS. I sometimes give unasked for advice and information in e-mails knowing son will take it or leave it, H has been known to forward pertinent info from websites he has perused. As a "mothers of sons" member (ie, never communicates- it must be a guy thing as H will forward info without any comment) the the occasional feedback showing he got the message or already knew it tells me he is doing well in navigating the system. I think I'm doing ok on the learning curve for letting go, it's a pass/fail course where the child only lets you know when you fail... And now I better go have a life...</p>

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<p>Haha. What is the counterpart of helicopter parents? DS called at 11:15 last night because he was writing a paper on Lolita and as a Latinist had difficulty translating the French. Looked on internet (has no French dictionary; too lazy to go to library, of course) and came up with this translation, "Apple of his cane." Hmmm. I had no idea, either, but out came trusty French/English dictionary. Found out canne (cane) can be used as part of idiom for fishing rod. So I said, "The apple of his rod. Need I say more?" He said, "No, I got it, thanks, Mom." </p>

<p>Pots, kettles, should moms have to talk about rods to their eighteen-year-old sons?</p>

<p>Still, the cooking utensil and small aircraft part of me was thrilled.</p>

<p>DD called at around the same time just to announce, "I agree with you. I love Wallace Stevens." My rotor is turning and buzzing along.</p>

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<p>"From what I've inferred on the board it seems in some areas the well off parents abandon their public schools for private schools, they do not insist on a high quality available to all students (and many public school costs are incurred for the special services that private schools can ignore). There, that was my soapbox rant."</p>

<p>Sorry but you have misread this board although you are absolutely entitled to your rant. All students are entitled to a high quality education, but at the end of the day, how do I help society if I allow my math-talented son to languish in a HS which is not set up to meet his educational needs, while I'm out there advocating for remediation for the thousands of kids in the system who are several years behind in math?</p>

<p>My kids presence in the HS makes absolutely no difference to anyone except my kid. I vote, I pay taxes, I was even in the minority to vote for the last bond issue for construction of a school that my kids wouldn't be attending. But to sacrifice your kids education for the sake of the PC claim that "if it's good enough for everyone else's kid its good enough for mine" seems absurd to me. I am not enough of a helicopter parent to have spent the better part of every week fighting some bureacratic battle with the Superintendent or Principal because classes were cancelled so the kids could attend a pep rally; or the building was in lockdown because of gang activity in the parking lot; or because a kid was knifed in the donut store across the street from school which meant that all academic work stopped for a week so that counselors from the local grief center and DARE officers could meet one on one with the kids.</p>

<p>I am assuming you live in a nice homogeneous community where everyone shares your educational values which is great. Move to a city where the ESL and Special Ed budgets are higher than the total amount spent on academic instruction for kids who speak English at home and don't have an LD-- and then you can criticize.</p>

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<p>blossom: I agree that our first obligation is to our own kids balanced by civic responsibility, which it really sounds like you do.</p>

<p>My kids attended a very good public, as I've described, but I have no quarrel at all with parents who make a different decision as long as they continue to fund public education. I felt as you do when my kids went to private elementary school -- I was the first one there to pass the school budget.</p>

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<p>i'm not surprised. there are some really college-oriented families who expend vast amounts of time, energy and money from the kid's very young age geared directly towards getting into a good college</p>