Post Grad Coping Problem

Parent Cafe
1

<p>Hello, My son (23) graduated from a good quality liberal arts school last year with mediocre grades (3.2). He declared his intention to go to medical school, but did not take the necessary steps in college (like research, etc.) He did get a good MCAT score, however (33). He is now at home after an international medical internship and seems stuck, unable to even look effectively for a job, plan his career, or work on more than one thing at once. For example, he has one potential job to pursue, but is not even looking for others and is not doing any kind of fill in jobs in the mean time. His judgement about near term vs long term tradeoffs is not consistent with his basic intelligence. These and other attributes have been true throughout his academic career though now seem to really be catching up with him, and I now suspect adult ADD. There were signs earlier and some attempts to address in elementary and middle school, but he never had a full ADD diagnosis.</p>

<p>I have raised the topic with him, but as of yet have not been able to get him to consider it seriously or get an assessment. For my first step I am looking for some help to understand based on his history what my best approach is to try to help him and how I should handle the situation. I should add he is at my ex's house so I have limited control over daily schedule, deadlines, etc. which he is not getting there.</p>

<p>Does anyone have a suggestion of my next steps, or a counselor or someone good to talk to? I am in the San Francisco Bay Area.</p>

<p>Thanks</p>

2

<p>I do not agree that you should have him evaluated. Now is not the time to work on getting a diagnosis, now is when he needs to get going and do something. </p>

<p>That something could just be volunteering or some part time job, but he needs to get a routine of getting up and out of the house. Then you and he (plus a therapist?) should work on a timetable of when he wants to accomplish things in his future. That’s very scary when you’re 23 yo, having graduated from college, and without a job. But you have to start getting a bit tough on him to help him grow up.</p>

3

<p>He sounds like someone who just needs to get a job and launch. There is no reason to worry about long term, short term goals if he could just bounce back and forth between each parent’s place.</p>

4

<p>I would like to add that 3.2 is not exactly ‘mediocre’ Maybe in HS, but not for college. And if he got through college just fine, did an international medical internship, and got a 33 on his MCAT…its hard to see the relevance of ADD or why he needs assessment. Sounds like he’s just in a not-unnormal-slump that lots of people go through. And probably a good thing he’s at his other parent’s house because it just seems offbase to be even wanting to control the daily schedule, deadlines, etc. of a 23 year old.</p>

5

<p>It is not unusual for a post grad kid to get stuck. My guess is that if you stopped paying his cellphone bill, explained that he has 6 more months on your health insurance, and that he needs to start paying rent at whichever home he is living in by July 1, he would quickly snap out of his funk and find himself a job.</p>

<p>We told all our kids that we would love them forever- but that our financial support ended 90 days after graduation. Even the chronic procrastinators found the werewithal to get up off the couch and get a job with that hanging over their head!</p>

<p>Your son does not need to determine his entire future in the next two weeks (a common and very paralyzing idea among new grads.) He does need to get a paycheck.</p>

6

<p>My brother was diagnosed with ADD as an adult shortly after graduating from university. For him the diagnosis was helpful, it enabled him to understand and pin point exactly where his problems lay and get a head start on combating them. I think there is some evidence to suggest that people with ADD do have trouble with long term goals, and rely more on short term rewards. I’m not an expert but this was certainly the case with my brother and he had had some long term difficulties reaching his academic potential. Obviously a diagnosis alone isn’t helpful and could in fact be detrimental if your son then felt he had no control over his lack of focus (I can’t help it I have ADD may as well not bother etc) but even a small amount of assistance from an expert may really help your son long term.
Is there a history of ADD in your family (in previous generations it probably wouldn’t have been diagnosed but there may have been odd behaviour noted by family members). There is also a danger of those with ADD self medicating with cannabis or alcohol, perhaps that’s a problem for your son?
Then again there’s always a temptation to look to a medical diagnosis with what can just be burn out or a lack of motivation which affects many post grads.</p>

7

<p>Watch “The Graduate”. One word- plastics.</p>

8

<p>Thanks for the helpful suggestions and viewpoints. I agree that he needs to get up and doing something to establish a routine and some experience and get some money coming in. I am concerned, however, that in his present state he may fail at a real job that requires multitasking anticipation of events. </p>

<p>A little more background: He can be a very hard and good worker, but I have not yet seen it sustained for longer than a couple of months at high intensity. During elementary through middle school he had significant issues getting the homework assignment written down and turning his homework in on time, and focusing in class. We went through the usual steps with day planners, folder, notebooks, daily review, etc. with some success, but this was always a challenge. In college he had a few classes where he excelled, but the typical class he did not work that hard and professors would say he is bright but not motivated to do his best work. The 3.2 may not seem that bad, but he never did many extra curricular activities or varsity sports or volunteer work. He was very active in a campus cooking club (they did many major all campus events), but did not take a leadership position. While declared a premed, he did not work closely with the premed advisor, the premed club, or do research. He went to a school where they only take one class at a time, so he did not need to juggle multiple classes and deadlines. In the summers he had extra classes and odd jobs, but never had a real long term job or internship. He had an international medical internship for six months after school, but his came though a non profit of a family friend where I am on the board. I do think that self medicating with cannabis is a real potential here.</p>

<p>My concern about planning came from what he has been doing the last couple months. I asked about a typical day, and he indicated that he would get up, take his mom to her job, go to a coffee shop for a couple hours to work on an online job hunting skills course, then run errands and do some cooking and shopping, maybe see friends later. No resumes out the door, no multiple options being investigated, no real sense of urgency. Yet he hates not having a job and says he does not want to stay in his present condition.</p>

<p>He has one lead on position where he has a good introduction and recommendation from his internship sponsor. This is his only solid reference, he does not have much in the way of recommendations from college. Otherwise he knows nothing about the process, competition or timing. The job itself is one that is is not sure he is well suited for. He is not even looking for other jobs now waiting to see if this one plays out. I could feel good about him getting out there and stubbing his toe a few times, but not succeeding at this job will likely compromise the only solid reference for professional jobs he has right now…</p>

<p>His lack of ability to multi task is what makes me worry there is more going on than the typical slow start of many grads today in this tough environment.</p>

<p>I totally agree that I don’t want to micro manage him. I consider him an adult and needing to be in the world on his own. Everyones’ suggestion that he just needs to be pushed out and forced to live with his own decisions sound right on to me no matter what.</p>

<p>However, if he has a problem processing things most people can handle he that stays unaddressed, people may conclude he is far less capable than his raw intelligence and desire would indicate and he could feel defeated. Whether to let him flail until he realizes he needs some help or new skills, or push him to seek help now is the critical question I am asking.</p>

<p>Thanks TPTSHORTY! Of course as a stodgy parent, eloping and having no idea what to do next is not exactly my ideal picture :)</p>

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<p>He has a nice life, no reason for him to compete or multi-task, he has everything he needs already. He took multiple classes in school, right? He managed to get a 3.2. I say give him 3-6 months to get a job and a place to live.</p>

10

<p>3.2 would be mediocre for medical school. If he has any serious interest in pursuing medical school you could learn more on the CC pre-med forum or you could scare the pants off him by directing him to student doctors network forum, very intense.</p>

<p>Is he actually interested in medicine, but overwhelmed or did that just sound good?</p>

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<p>What about pharmacy school? Becoming a pharmacist can be a good career choice, and highly lucrative especially if you are willing to spend a few years in a rural area after graduation. Pharmacy school entrance requirements in terms of GPA (and honestly, I think the GPA is a bigger hurdle here than that he didn’t do any research in undergrad) are often lower than those required for med school, and the program is shorter. </p>

<p>But applying to grad school should be the second step. First step is to find a job. If he’s serious about going to a medical graduate school, what job he has at this point doesn’t really matter. He could work at Starbucks (which is often hiring and is a good place to work), just to give him some direction and money while he gets going on his school apps. If he doesn’t want to go back to school right away, then he’ll want to find something that’s more of a career and less of a job. </p>

<p>Right now, there’s really no incentive for him to look for work. You pay for all of his expenses, he lives in a comfortable home, he has a cell phone, access to a car, I’m assuming some spending money, and he has his friends around. In his position, I wouldn’t be putting a lot of effort into sending out resumes either. I agree with others here: you need to set some kind of deadline. If he’s already bad at time management, he’s definitely not going to be able to figure out job applications if he feels like he has all the time in the world. He needs deadlines to focus him and lend urgency to his search. If he doesn’t have student loans bearing down on him, forcing a deadline, then you as his de facto landlord will probably need to set one.</p>

12

<p>I’m grateful for the help and want to give more info in hopes of getting more actionable advice.</p>

<p>I’ve come to realize that I may have missed the boat on getting DS the help he needed early on. Instead we believed everything would work out on its own and probably made life way easier than we should have for him.</p>

<p>DS went to a college he could not have were there not an extensive family legacy. I gave him jobs around the house summers rather than require him to find a real job. I accepted his excuses of bad teachers when he got low grades. I handed him his one internship. He has never had to work hard to get things he wanted.</p>

<p>I only recently started examining my role in getting, or not getting, my kids to be hard working and motivated. And in looking at all of this I came to understand that there was most probably an organic issue that made the kids prone to not do as well as bright kids from a highly educated family would hopefully want to do.</p>

<p>We were flagged to issues by teachers throughout school. Even one of his college profs made reference to his not working hard enough to me at graduation.</p>

<p>So this is a kid who has been seen as lazy by everyone from his middle school teachers to his scout master to his college professors. Yet as in classic ADD, I’ve seen him work hard and do a great job on things that interest him.</p>

<p>Yet a career doesn’t seem to interest him much. He checked the pre med box and completed all of the classes yet did no research to find out what it took to get into med school. Every kid on CC seems to know it takes doing research and a whole host of things beyond good grades. Yet he did not get the grades necessary or do any of the ECs with no understanding that a good MCAT wouldn’t make up for everything.</p>

<p>He never visited his college career center or tried to gain any job hunting skills.</p>

<p>So I don’t think this is an average case of a new college grad being a little lost. I think he has lived in a world of one class at a time for 4 years and does not have the ability to multitask. His simple errands at home distract him to the point of not focusing on getting a single resume out. And he seems to think this is normal.</p>

<p>I would be happy if my son was a ditch digger if it would make him happy. But he’s not happy, he’s very bright and wants to do things. He is lacking the skills to move forward and I want to do anything I can to give him assistance. A job coach, a career counselor, ADD therapist…whatever might help.</p>

<p>I do understand that getting real life experience in the working world as an adult is necessary, inevitable, and core to any path forward. I am just searching for whether there is more than hard knocks that can help him at this stage.</p>

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<p>What it sounds like is that he still doesn’t know what he wants to do in life. A lot of people seem to think that after undergrad a person knows exactly what he/she wants to do in life. I disagree. It can take a while. Give him some time as he is only 23.</p>

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<p>It’s fine if you’re still trying to figure out what you want to do in life, but in the meantime, you ought to be doing something. If you don’t have a job yet, then really, no job is beneath you. Working in retail, working at restaurant, temping these may not be how you envision your post-college life, but they’ll sustain you while you figure out how to get to what it is you really want.</p>

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<p>I can appreciate that you are now looking back on what you might have done to enable him-- but with all due respect, you’re still grasping at the “he can’t multi-task” straw instead of getting practical. Yes, he could have ADD. Yes, he could have undiagnosed neurological or psychological issues which are preventing him from getting off the couch and getting his resume together. And no, he never went to the career center to learn how to look for a job. But guess what- every day millions of other people- many much less smart and lucky than he- get out of bed, and go to their jobs. Why? because that’s what keeps the lights on and the food on the table.</p>

<p>You are buying into the syndrome you claim you are now regretting. So stop. You want to do anything you can to help him. Great- that’s a wonderful first step.</p>

<p>Sit him down, explain in a loving and positive manner that he may not be ready to figure out his entire life yet- and you are very sympathetic- but he needs to either be enrolled in grad school or working. And if enrolls in an EMT/Paramedic course or nursing school at the local community college that’s a fine substitute. But he’s got 30 days or 60 days to get on with it.</p>

<p>Do you know how many working adults have ADD? And you are ready to use some “organic” cause for why this otherwise healthy adult is not doing something productive with his life? He may in fact have processing issues- so what? He is either going to learn to compensate, or accept his limitations and get a job somewhere where it’s not problematic. But that’s not a decision you get to make for him.</p>

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<p>What jumped out at me is ‘COOKING’. That is the direction I would turn this kid towards. Maybe not flipping burgers, but working in that field - starting out helping a caterer, even enrolling in culinary school, etc. I have no clue about the field and career paths, but it seems to be an activity you mentioned twice that he enjoys.</p>

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<p>In the rarified atmosphere of CC 3.2 is mediocre. In the rest of the world 3.2 is fine, both for HS and college. There are many pursuits other than med school.</p>

<p>Your son needs to do something. Just get a job. Tend bar, dig ditches, whatever. He has been in school for his entire life. There is honor in honest work, there is none in sponging off of your parents. Nothing like a 40 hour work week in a mundane job to help you in making plans for the future.</p>

<p>I’m not kidding about digging ditches (your example). Hard, manual work for a 23 year old kid might be the right medicine…he will feel good about himself, get physical conditioning, and get his head around what the future may hold.</p>

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<p>I think it’s hard for kids to “launch.” Their entire life the “next step” was in front of them and they knew what it was…finish elementary school go to middle school. Finish middle school go to high school. Finish high school…go to college. And all along the way parents or authority figures held their hands. We “assume” that it’s finish college…find a job. But for some reason some kids just can’t figure out what that means and this is the first time where there isn’t a ton of assistance and support helping them transition. I do think it’s more failure to launch than any over riding problem that will keep this kid from making that step. We never did allowances with the kids. You want money, find a job. We gave them necessities they needed one time and then nothing more. You absolutely might have to give a shove. My kids learned how to take care of their things because we gave them one and if they lost it, broke it, had it stolen it was on them. They knew how to find a job because they had to. If kids have never had to “fend for themselves” they need to start somewhere. For some families that is in the twenties for others it happens in the teens.</p>

<p>So yes, as Blossom points out people that seem to move from one life space to another with ease do so because at some point they had to do it for the first time. There’s nothing wrong with holding your kids’ hands into young adulthood but then just know they will be going through first experiences that other kids have already gone through and they need that shove. </p>

<p>Watch a mother bird someday. The little ones are perched on the edge of the birdhouse…some take off immediately, others hang back but eventually the hanger backers get alittle shove. Not all kids walk at 9 months, for some it’s 10, 11, 12, or even 15 months but eventually they’ll all take off. They just need alittle shove and some need a big shove. They don’t have to figure out the next 50 years…just the next 3 months or 6 months or one year. Pretty soon they’ll be soaring and running.</p>

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<p>Thanks everyone, this is very very helpful. He is at the end of the prescribed path and for the first time really has to do it on his own. Yes, any job is better than none. I have felt for some time that DS is a “doer” and just needs to get out and start doing. You are helping me get more comfortable with that.</p>

<p>To answer one of the earlier posts, I have not seen a deep commitment to being a doctor and now suspect that this was just a default option that sounded good (though he had signed up for all the premed prereqs before ever declaring). Also, yes, cooking is his true passion but he has yet to take that seriously as a career because he cannot see beyond being a chef or waiter to the bigger opportunities.</p>

<p>Here is my challenge in implementing this great advice. As often happens in a divorce, there is a divergence of approaches to things. DS’s mother mostly shares the way I used to approach the kids, we had a laid back lifestyle with few expectations we expected them to meet. At this point I don’t believe my ex will feel comfortable setting deadlines. I unfortunately work out of the country often now, and while I was the primary caregiver for many years, he now lives under her roof and I’m am not in the position to impose what seems to be called for now. This is why I have looked for ways to help him that can be done without any true “hammers.”</p>

<p>He can come and live with me overseas, but I don’t think he will choose to live in my home with expectations over his mother’s home with few.</p>

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<p>Maybe he already knows that he wouldn’t make a good doctor, doesn’t have the drive for 4-8 years of medical-related slog, doesn’t want to take out crushing loans to do it, and hasn’t figured out how to tell you yet. (He might think you would be disappointed in him, and doesn’t want to feel like a failure…)</p>