<p>My DD is a freshman at a prestigious conservatory, and had been doing well...or so we thought. She got her first semester grades and received all As, but a C+ lesson grade. As a non-music person I did not realize this would land her on probation! She has to meet with the dean and the letter indicates that if she ever gets below a B- again in a performance class, she will be dismissed. She had expected a B-, so I am pushing her to talk to her teacher and find out why the grade was a C+, and what she can do to ensure this does not happen again. I am not sure if it is relevant, but 75% of the entering freshman in this teacher's studio received a C+ or below! I am trying to see if she can get learn from some of the upperclassmen if it is common for new students to get these type of grades from this teacher, and then they continue on successfully, or if the teacher is trying to weed out some kids or if there is some other purpose. I know she has been happy and working hard, and I believe wants to stay, but I am not sure if we should start to encourage her to look at alternatives, and what those might be. I have no idea how being dismissed for a lack of satisfactory artistic progress would be viewed, in light of a generally great set of grades. Help!</p>
<p>So that means that 75% of this teacher’s freshman class are now on probation…! The administration must find this problematic. Is this a yearly occurrence, or something new this year? I’ve heard of teachers grading freshmen harshly first semester as a way of asserting that there is room for improvement. </p>
<p>When my daughter was a freshman her teacher gave her an A- and the “minus” bothered her so she went to talk to him about it. He seemed surprised and told her that all freshmen got that grade. Another daughter, in an art school, was upset to get a B+ and went to talk to the teacher who told her it was the highest grade he gave. Could be this teacher is not interested in the culture of grade inflation and always gives freshmen a grade of C+, and that the administration <em>always</em> has to put his freshman studio on probation. </p>
<p>I agree with your instincts-- of course she should talk to the older students. And she should approach the teacher to ask him how she can improve. (Rather than to complain about the grade-- of course, I see you are not suggesting she complain.) </p>
<p>How is her sense of her relationship with the teacher otherwise? Did the grade come as a total shock? I see that she expected a B-. If it’s not a good fit, maybe she should consider transferring to a different studio.</p>
<p>I also think it could be a bad fit and doesn’t mean she should dropout of music but maybe consider transferring. Unless she’s not putting enough practice time in. To get straight A’s requires a lot of time. Could she be practicing instead?</p>
<p>Actually, I disagree-- it is possible to get “straight A’s” in academic subjects and still excel in studio. </p>
<p>But we don’t have a clear idea of the situation. My question is: is howdoihelp’s daughter progressing (reality check)? If so, is the teacher’s personal grading scale out of whack with the institution? Or is the student not progressing adequately (along with most of her peers.) I’d say if the lion’s share of a studio is truly “failing” then there is something wrong with the instructor.</p>
<p>I believe she needs to talk to the teacher regarding his/her expectations and how she can improve. But she must develop a thick skin as many conservatory teachers do not take the trouble to spare students’ feelings, particularly if they give low grades to freshmen! I used to cry after every lesson first semester because my teacher was so “mean.” But I learned to work harder and not take things personally, and ended up enjoying my undergraduate experience.</p>
<p>Prestigious conservatories do not accept studios 3/4 full of C+ performers. There is more going on with this teacher. Definitely, your daughter should confer with more advanced students, both in her studio and in others. If she is satisfied with her progress and work habits, there is a miscommunication somewhere. </p>
<p>Glassharmonica I should amend, I don’t think my son could get straight A’s and get stellar studio grades. At my college, I was studying 6 plus hours a day, there wouldn’t be time for 4 to 6 hours of practicing too.</p>
<p>cellomom6, I think you might be confusing the academic coursework with your obviously rigorous academic college experience with that of a typical elite conservatory. Students generally have one or “gen-ed” type courses and then various quasi-academic music courses such as ear training, theory, music history, etc., along with performance courses. They don’t need to study 6 hours a day–they would not have time. Also, except in times of preparation for auditions or performance 4-6 hours of practice on top of rehearsal time would likely lead to injury (for a string player) and would be un-fathomable for a vocalist or wind player. In general, conservatory kids practice smarter, shorter. </p>
<p>In my reading, I thought kids were practicing on average of 4 hours a day. Is that not true?</p>
<p>GH is right, the amount you practice varies by what you are doing. A voice student would wipe their vocal chords out practicing that much from what I know, and for a wind player that would be the road to wiping out the lips and such, it is just too much (I am sure there are kids who practice that much and don’t wipe out, but it isn’t the norm). String players can practice a lot more, but I agree with GH, given that the student not only will be practicing, but have ensemble practice, orchestra rehearsals and so on, it would be difficult to practice 4 hours and do all that (it also depends, might be easier to practice 4 hours a day on a weekend day than on a school day). Not to mention it can be difficult to find practice space for that amount of time, too…the other thing as GH mentions is that once away from parents, who because they don’t know equate quantity=quality, students learn to practice smarter. I read an article a while ago by Itzak Perlman, who said that the idea that X hours is the golden time doesn’t work, that it depends on how you practice, too, and I seem to recall he thought 3 hours would be an outside time (again, as GH wisely points out, it also depends on what is going on). </p>
<p>As for the OP, I would recommend that D talk to other students in said studio and see what they say, if the teacher has 75% of his students at C+ or less, and the school puts them on probation, something smells to me, either we aren’t getting the full story or quite honestly the teacher and the school both are pretty dimwitted…that is the old school unless you beat a student down they won’t excel kind of crap (think guys like Galamian and Fuchs and their ilk), it makes no sense. This isn’t about ‘grade inflation’, if 75% of the freshman are getting a C+ or below, that is grade deflation, and I am sure he has all these theories about how it will make them work harder, how it is to weed out those ‘too soft’ for music and the like, and the fact that the music school allows him to do that is pretty dodgy IMO (but not surprising), that doesn’t say a lot about their audition process if 75% are doing that badly…which is why I suspect it is a teacher bogged down in the 19th century or something…</p>
<p>What really concerns me is from a standpoint of a teacher or manager, and that is if a grade surprises a student, that indicates real problems. If I write a performance review at the end of the year and the person I am reviewing is shocked (I am talking a bad review), it generally means I or any manager/leader didn’t communicate very well in most cases (yeah, some people are oblivious, but 75%? Please)…unless she doesn’t know how to listen, or doesn’t understand what he is saying, it tells me that if she really is that bad, it should not have come as a surprise…</p>
<p>The other piece of advice is she should talk to him about it, maybe indirectly, and say something like “What do I need to do to improve? What things am I lacking in?Do you feel I am not prepared enough in class?” rather than say “Why did I get a C+?” In the end, he fortunately or unfortunately is in charge of his studio, and these are medieval fiefdoms in the way they are run, some are better, some worse, but ultimately, it is his court. </p>
<p>To clarify, she plays a wind instrument and is practicing about 3 hours or so a day. She is in a conservatory, so the gen ed requirements are low, and she was a straight A student in HS, with nothing but honors and AP classes, so those are a piece of cake. The ear training is a bit of a challenge, but the rest is not. She is getting As in all the rest of her performance classes too. It is just the lessons! </p>
<p>She met with the dean today, and was told that while this is significant, it will end if she can pull up to a B+. The letter indicated if she ever ends up on probation again she would be summarily dismissed, but she was told that is subject to discussion, should she find herself in that position. She seems to want to stay, but they indicated in the letter they will do a mid-semester review, and that may be the time to consider a transfer. Is that even an option, given the situation? If she stays in music, I am not sure how that would work, and if not I really am not clear, since this would not be an issue of academic probation, but rather artistic lack of progress. Right now she is saying she is not really clear on why she got that grade, but does understand what she needs to do differently. I hope she is right!</p>
<p>I am not sure about the fit between her and the teacher, but she seems OK with it. She does have a thick skin, or at least has developed one this year, and her teacher is also not particularly gentle with the students. I am concerned that 75% of the kids are on probation, and I have been told that not all of those even got a C+. I am really trying to find out if this is how they weed out kids and keep the studio small, or if it is just the nature of the teacher to give newbies bad grades, or something else completely. I am concerned that the freshman class makes up significantly more than 25% of the studio, and the studio contains both grads and undergrads</p>
<p>She is not really close to any of the upperclassmen, and is not really eager to talk grades with them, but I may have to continue to encourage her to try. DD was prepared for tough grading, and had been told not to expect As. I can’t help but think this is part of the teachers modus operandi, since DD did not mention anything in the meeting with the dean that made this seem atypical. I agree that this school should not admit 75% C+ or lower students, and hope this is just a way for the teacher to whip the newbies into shape. Considering the teacher had a huge say in who was accepted, I would hope they would do a better job picking students! I just don’t want her dismissed with no other options on the table. Community college is really not a great choice for this kid!</p>
<p>Sorry for the really long vent! Any info would be greatly appreciated!</p>
<p>Hopefully your daughter gets some answers. I’d insist with the Dean for some concrete feedback. It’s your daughters career and money she’s spent on the line. It boggles my mind that your daughter doesn’t have more information. How can she improve without any concrete tasks?</p>
<p>This sounds dicey enough that perhaps your daughter should work on a back-up plan, a transfer to your top state university in a BA program, give herself time to see if she wants to continue in music, while picking up core curriculum courses at a good school. With her grades, she should have no problem transferring in. Some might think that this is a negative approach, but it may give her more confidence to have an option. Good luck to your daughter. </p>
<p>Musicprnt, While her teacher is not old, I do think he is old school. Very much wants what he wants how he wants it! She expected a B-, but I am not sure why exactly. She will be meeting with the dean again at the midpoint of the semester, and I hope they will require some input from her teacher as to her grade at that time. When I asked if, at mid-terms first semester she had any idea how she was doing she admitted she had none at all!</p>
<p>We spoke last night and she was really crying, which is not like her at all! She is working on semester placement and a concert coming up, and all this has her just spent. I think she sees she needs to talk to the teacher, but not right now. It is more than she can do in the next couple of weeks, and at this point that delay is not important. She is under the impression that students are graded based on improvement, and I think that really makes no sense in general, but if that is the case it seems backwards to me. The new students should be improving more than students who have been in the program for a long time! She had a lesson and actually thought it went well, but again there is really no concrete feedback on grades so really, who knows? She did say she will need to talk to some of the others in the studio to learn how they are practicing and how much. She said she practices about 3 hours a day, in addition to rehearsals, and what she was doing was about what was on the syllabus, but that at the lesson yesterday was told she should be doing almost double that. That is totally unreasonable, given the nature of the instrument, and could actually cause an injury. I think that may have been the straw that broke the camels back. She was wondering if she had it in her to be successful, and I stressed that there are other teachers, and other programs in the world, and not all people who get jobs come out of this one studio! </p>
<p>I know she is not ready to consider a transfer, but I am starting to think this may be in her best interest. I am not sure if I should start a new thread on that, but am wondering if anyone has any experience transferring to another music program. It is a very small world, and her teacher is very well known, so I am not sure if she could get in somewhere else if she is on probation here. She was accepted at a number of great programs, and turned them down, so I can’t help but wonder if they would not even consider her now. Would they feel as if they were her fall back option, rather than that she found her current teacher and program a bad fit?</p>
<p>Right now I admit I wish she was less passionate about her music, and had decided to be a science major! </p>
<p>To be honest, I think her acceptance at another program would depend more on her audition than her grades at her current program. But it is not unimaginable that her current teacher won’t write a recommendation or would potentially blacklist her later along the line. It’s a touchy situation. </p>
<p>I do think that, generally speaking, it’s understood that there can be bad fits in studio situations. I imagine, from what you say, this teacher may have a reputation out there… Also, just anecdotal, but I do know of a number of kids who transferred into programs where they’d been accepted previously. I don’t think that sort of thing is held against you by an institution. A teacher with a big ego might not want to take a kid who rejected their original offer-- but not the institution.</p>
<p>And prescribing a given number of hours for practicing–that does not make sense. At her level practice is about quality and focus. It seems that the teacher is frustrated with her and others in his studio, but it could be that he is not getting the results he wants from his studio because he’s not able to communicate with them. </p>
<p>A friend of my daughter’s is in a parallel (although less dire) situation and sees the only way out as a transfer to a more highly regarded program than the one she’s in–so her teacher would support her application because it’s a step up. </p>
<p>Just anecdotal, but over Christmas break, my son (voice performance) and I had dinner with his best friend from HS who is a voice performance major at another school (university-based). She told us that her voice professor had already dropped/failed (by end of 1st semester) all of her freshman students except her. Even S2’s teacher (at conservatory) has dropped 1 out of the 4 freshmen in his studio. As a non-music parent, I had no idea how competitive this whole business is - getting in is apparently just the first step. </p>
<p>That being said, best of luck and wishes to OP’s D. I’m sure this is stressful for everyone involved. </p>
<p>I haven’t had any experience with transfers, and yeah, it is a small world. When I said old, I probably should say old school, which quite frankly doesn’t mean better IMO, a lot of the old school music teachers came out of Europe of a past age, where they really though bullying and teachers bullying students was how you created great musicians, and I would bet good money her teacher studied under someone like that. Funny part is, the teachers like that will tell you how much better they are than their teacher was, and cite stories. My S’s teacher before college studied with someone like that, yet they claimed they were nothing like their teacher…however, my S ran into a musician who studied with the same teacher, and when they found out who my S was studying with at the time, they told him “then you know how X (their teacher) was, your teacher is a direct copy of him”. Unfortunately, though you are probably paying good money to go there, music schools to have the ‘great teachers’ will put up with this crap, stuff that in an academic teacher would get them in hot trouble in some cases (like teachers throwing stuff at the student , or even hitting them), in music school this is considered ‘par for the course’…it is probably one of the most glaring examples of classical music training being in the dark ages IMO (for the record, not all teachers are like that, it is probably a minority, but it still exists. </p>
<p>My S is lucky, he is studying with one of the more noted teachers in the world on his instrument, who is a demanding teacher, but also is an incredible supportive teacher as well, doesn’t yell, doesn’t scream, doesn’t play crap like thinking giving a student a bad grade will make them work harder, yet the teacher turns out world class musicians despite being ‘nice’…and to those who tell me “well, it gets them prepared for the world of music”, to me that is akin to those who say bullying in school “toughens kids up for the real world”…there is a difference between a tough, demanding teacher, and an abusive jerk, and you don’t have to be the latter to be the former, all that is to me is someone getting back at their students for what their teacher did to them. Note I am generally not a wishy washy person when it comes to music, when I write on here or in real life I tend to talk pretty bluntly about how tough music is, how hard it is even for the best students, and about what it takes, so I am not of the "oh, you love music, that is enough’ camp…</p>
<p>I would seriously ask your D to talk to other upper class students about the teacher, if this is the way he is, she may have nothing to fear, it could be simply par for the course. Like I wrote in my prior post, I would encourage her to talk to the teacher and ask what she needs to do to improve,be better (though that should be coming out in lessons if they really are a good teacher IMO), it never hurts to do that, if he is looking to ‘stir students up’, as stupid as I think that is personally,then it is her way of telling him she noticed and is eager to improve…sometimes you have to play the game, as idiotic as it may seem…</p>
<p>In terms of transfers, I suspect what will count most is the audition, if this teacher has the reputation for giving freshman bad grades (and if he is doing that, I can almost guarantee you word is out about that, it is a small world) then especially so…</p>
<p>On a more personal note, one thing to tell your D (may not work, but worth a shot) is that this comes down to one person’s opinion of her, and no matter how good this teacher might be, it is that, his opinion. Unfortunately, when it comes to lessons it is an apprenticeship kind of thing, and there is no way to challenge the grade (unlike, for example, when I had a grad school teacher give me a bad grade, when I had literally upper 90’s on all my exams during the year. the final was a joke, and I challenged it…they asked the teacher for the final exam with the grade on it, and the teacher mysteriously had ‘lost it’…I got my grade changed to an A, and the witch who taught the course earned one big black mark…) because there is nothing objective about it…so she can’t take it personally, and more importantly, that grade won’t mean anything down the road, either, because what is going to matter is how well she plays in the end. If she goes to grad school, almost certainly her marks in lessons won’t mean much if anything, most of it is going to be in her audition, it is very, very different than academics when going for an MM from what I know. If he gives her a B or she has a B average on lessons, it won’t matter much if they hear her audition and say “she plays well enough”…plus admissions people know that grades on lessons don’t necessarily mean much, especially if this clown has a reputation out there for being prickly…:). It isn’t the end of the world, it isn’t like pre med where getting a C in organic chemistry might kill your chances to get into med school, totally different thing. </p>
<p>As far as another program seeing themselves as a ‘fallback’, I suspect that might be a concern you don’t have to worry about much. Most people in music have more than a few teachers in their lives, and anyone involved with music understands that sometimes it just doesn’t work out with a teacher, precisely because it is a master/apprentice kind of thing, there is no such thing as one size fits all with teachers. I can name teachers on the violin who wouldn’t touch my S with a 10 foot pole or whole violin programs who wouldn’t (and he wouldn’t want to study there, either), yet he is in the studio of one of the more sought out teachers in the world, whom he loves…so who is right? Sometimes it just doesn’t work out, sometimes it takes a couple of years to figure it out, sometimes 1 lesson…and people in music know this, if they have been around the music world for anything more than 5 minutes, they will understand that it often comes down to a matter of fit, not capability of either student or teacher…but rather the chemistry between them didn’t work. </p>
<p>I think some studio teachers are tougher than others. At son’s school, he is the only remaining player out of the 5 who started with him. One student transferred to another music school, the others were told that a career in music wasn’t for them and left by the end of their sophomore year. The average grade for continuing students in the teacher’s studio is a B. Son tries to reassure the freshman that if they just do what the teacher wants they will survive. Son does have friends in other studios at his school where everyone gets an A. It would be great to find these things out before enrolling. We did think it was strange when he visited the school his senior year in high school that there were only a few upper classman in the studio. Now we know why… Son is happy with the instruction and the level he is playing at but did have a few anxious moments as a freshman.</p>
<p>Thank you all so much! It is just so nice to have people who understand! I am horribly worried, and it is one if the first times that there is nothing I can, or should do to help her. I have stressed that this in one persons opinion of her, and as she is getting As in all her other performance classes, I hope that reassures her I am not just coming out of left field. She is actually playing more than most for the rep class she has, and although I do not know what this means I hope it means something good! I am not a musician, and while I think she is good, if it were just her getting a C+, and perhaps if her other performance grades were similar, I would think she wasn’t as good as I thought and had just auditioned well. The fact that 75% of the freshman are in a similar position has me wondering what to do, and the size of the freshman class relative to the size of the studio makes me wonder what has gone on in prior years. Hindsight is 20/20. It was a tough decision for her to pick this program over another, and difficult for me as her mom as the alternative program would have been my choice! I have supported her choice throughout, but now I wonder if I should have pushed for her 2nd choice school. I suppose one can never know everything about a teacher and a program before making a choice, but I wonder if there was a way to have gained more info and made a more informed decision, and I wonder if, even with all the info we have now, she would still have chosen this school! </p>
<p>One other thought: is there an adviser at the school your daughter can talk to? </p>