<p>Hi all, just back from vacation, and read about half of this thread. I think we visited one ofthe Southern LACs that was mentioned as having off campus parties. I want to add that the locations are secret (primarily from local high school students and students of other colleges, see below) and students are transported to the parties by bus, students arriving in cars are not allowed inside. I actually thought this was a good compromise, particularly having hired bartenders checking IDs - any system can be abused, but at least this gets kids off the hook of allowing friends to drink underage.</p>
<p>One of the most famous hazing/drinking deaths in my community involved the son of an acquaintance who was a student at a community college in the same town as one of our large state unis, several years ago. These community colleges are entry points into the state uni for kids whose GPAs aren't high enough for the state school. At that time, I don't know about now, these kids could attend frat parties, where this particular incident began. Controlling who can come to the party is very important.</p>
<p>I don't think my DD is the sorority type - we'll see. One of my dearest friends was pres of her sorority, she's not the sorority type either - but that was back in the days when we could drink at 19. I personally think that the higher drinking age aggravates the binge drinking mentality, even though it has decreased drunk driving deaths.</p>
<p>Back from vacation, too, and have to give Idad credit for hanging in there. I still "hear" that students want to belong, are feeling the desire to be part of a defined, select crowd and that is the problem with the pledging, drinking, hazing - it preys upon young adults who will not anticipate negative outcomes over projected postive expectations. Some simply don't have adequate experience to weigh everything and anticipate possible negatives and some will simply find the desire to be part of a popular and defined social group much stronger than any other desires. This isn't about personal responsibility, this is about maturity and experience - many do not arrive on campus with an abundance of either. </p>
<p>I still maintain that a group that actively and openly uses a process for selecting and omitting individuals for a social group has no place on a college campus. The fact that the most well known activities are drinking, hazing, partying and sex doesn't make me feel any better about it's positive role on campus. Frats are not a pressure or a message I want for my son.</p>
<p>A thread full of many ridiculous unsubstantiated opinions will have done nothing (I hope) to change the mind of my undecided son about joining a fraternity! </p>
<p>I do appreciate the opinions of those with first hand experience, however.</p>
<p>I swore I'd stay out of this because apparently some people would rather rely on sterotypes than facts, but I felt I had to respond to this one.</p>
<p>Sokkermom: if your son is truly interested, have him look at an individual fraternity. Not the reputation the national fraternity has, or how fraternities are viewed on his campus in general, but how each separate one conducts their individual chapater. I was totally against the idea at first, for all the same reasons that ID brings up. My son, however, did research on his own. Starting with recommendations from friends whose opinions he valued. He looked to see how strong each fraternity was academically. They post those ranks publicly. He noticed that the one in question had the most members who had gotten into the business school. Those brothers told him that being part of the fraternity helped them do that.</p>
<p>Then he looked to see their rank athletically. He's always been an athlete but had no interest in pursuing it at a varsity level at a Division I school. He certainly didn't want to give it up completely. He was also (very strongly) against hazing. Although they won't tell you exactly what goes on during initiation (like the secret handshake) they will certainly tell you what their hazing amounts to. He was so comfortable with the process that he convinced his brother to join when he started at the same school. There's no way he would have put his brother through hazing. And there's no way his shy brother would have joined an organization that hazed.</p>
<p>He also looked at the reputation the fraternity had on campus as far as their leadership. Most of the student government leaders on campus were fraternity members, and that specific fraternity had a fair percentage of their members become President. He has also been very involved in volunteer activities in high school and wanted to continue those. As some people pointed out before, part of the initiation process involved community service, as well as "contributing to the house" in some way. </p>
<p>I know I am convincing nobody who absolutely hates fraternities to even keep an open mind, but for those of you who are still interested, I say do your homework. I am very, very glad that my sons joined.</p>
<p>"I still maintain that a group that actively and openly uses a process for selecting and omitting individuals for a social group has no place on a college campus."</p>
<p>Rileydog, what do you think the college admissions process is about? How is this any different than anything else in life. Sports teams eliminate people, Acapella singing groups on campus eliminate people, as do theater tryouts for a musical or play. That is life.</p>
<p>I tried to join a business society at my school, and I was not accepted even though I went to the recruitment events and such. It is the same thing but no one gets offended when an academic club does the same thing...get rid of double standards.</p>
<blockquote>
<p>Sokkermom: if your son is truly interested, have him look at an individual fraternity. Not the reputation the national fraternity has, or how fraternities are viewed on his campus in general, but how each separate one conducts their individual chapater. </p>
</blockquote>
<br>
<p>Absolutely. Specifically, I would research the last ten years or so to see if the chapter has been put on probation or even decertified by the college. For example, one frat at Sokkermon's school was decertified for repeated brawls on campus.</p>
<p>The colleges turn such a blind eye that, for a frat to rise to the level of de-certification, it must be a really irresponsible group. </p>
<p>Certain frats also seem to be high on the list of sanctions at many schools -- another troubling indicator of a culture that is no good.</p>
<p><em>I</em> am offended that you couldn't get into the business society at your school. I really liked how my daughter's middle school did things (though I think that, unfortunately, they have changed their policy): if you wanted to be on a sports team, you were on the team. If you wanted to be in a play, you were in the play. You wouldn't be playing the whole game if you weren't one of the better players, but you would be rotated in and out and you'd get a chance to play. If they had more kids than they were allowed to have on a team, then they had a core of five of the better players and the other groups of kids took turns playing at different games. Middle school was the only time my daughter got to play school sports, though she was also on a league softball team with a coach who wanted the kids to do their best no matter what their skill level was. So no, I don't have a double standard for these things; I think people should be allowed to join whatever school club they want to, and things can be worked out if there are too many members for a particular event.</p>
<p>Lizschup, I think there is a big difference, actually. None of the things you mentioned are social clubs. Athletics is based on talent, ability, years of hard work and practice and is a well-known competitive environment - my own son recognizes that he does not have the talent to compete at the college level - he knows the paramters - they are not secret. Colleges publish lots of data about their programs and their admissions requirements, and students spend, or choose not to spend, years working hard to meet the admission standards. Academic clubs presumably have standards for admission based on performance and investment - maybe I am wrong about that?? While there may be some inequalities in the system, essentially, the parameters for acceptance have nothing to do with beauty, popularity or compliance with silly, secretive and potentially hazardous activities. In fact, colleges attempt to ensure equal access and a level playing field by seeking out and offering admission and funding to members of society who may have had less opportunity, who may not "look" like the majority of its applicants and may require a leg up. The colleges are seeking diversity and a college community of varied composition - frats, as I recognize them, seem to seek the opposite. I suspect you are much younger than I am but I recall the many private clubs, schools, civic organizations, etc., that refused access to women, blacks and Jews. Heck, I spent 6 months between college and grad school as a secretary in an organization of 50 male stockbrokers, all with less credentials than the 6 female secretaries who all had master's degrees but were not allowed to enter the training program because they were females! There were many battles and court cases to ensure that everyone was treated equally and had equal access back then - why go backwards and why stay in the high school mentality that some people are more special than others based on undefined characteristics like beauty and popularity? I hope my son does not need to define himself by being a member of a frat but I could see it happening, which is perhaps why I am concerned about the presence of frats on campus. If I want a dorm room in the nicest dorm on campus, I can get on the wait list or I can put my name in the lottery - I don't have to know the secret handshake. If frats want to be a home or a community, they should eliminate the blatantly selective process for admission and they should take an active lead in eliminating the hazing and party image.</p>
<p>I dont think that it was unfair that I did not get into the business society. They have their guidelines for what they want in a member, just as fraternities do. You know life is not a free for all, people can't always get something just because they want it.</p>
<p>Rileydog, your points are well taken if they represented the norm. Unfortunately (fortunately?), they represent the stereotype. At most frats there is a lot less exclusion going on than the stereotype assumes. Instead, they are out to attract new members - as many as possible. As I said in one of my previous posts, there is the possibility of excluding someone - but it is rare and it is based on perceived incompatibility. </p>
<p>As much as our generation has proven that we want to protect our kids from the realities of life, this in fact is a reality of life. If your son were to get together with some friends with the intent of renting an apartment I'm sure he would do so based on the fact that the group of friends are compatible and want to live together. If another person wanted to join with them whom they didn't think would fit in - they would be well within their rights of denying that person the ability to join them. You wouldn't accuse your son of being elitist for selecting his roommates, so why judge a fraternity for exercising the same prerogative?</p>
<p>PS I think you are naive if you think that selection into college singing groups is totally based in one's singing ability.</p>
<p>I don't have a problem with groups on campus selecting who is going to participate.
While I applaud middle schools who have resources to allow anyone who wants to join a club or sport to do so, generally high school and college are much different.
My daughter played on two soccer teams in middle school ( rec league and school), district champ volleyball team, and basketball. In high school she has not tried out for any, its much more competitive, instead she has found alternate activities to particpate in.
If I start a club on campus, I would want to control who participates. I don't want those who join to hassle the others, as some who register for a "womens studies" class do just to be antagonistic. I would want those who are prepared to make a commitment, and contribute to the group.
While I don't agree with the hazing process, but requiring pledges to invest blood sweat and tears into the effort it insures that they are commited to the group.</p>
<p>1sokkermom and others - if you have a few minutes it is eye-opening to do some reading on greekchat.com - the problems with hazing and drinking are clearly pervasive and not under control for many, many frats and sororities as admitted by their own members. The deaths, the numerous incidents of rape, etc - do you feel that some frats spoil it for the majority or do you feel that your sons' frat house is unique? I am unclear about how parentson this forum feel the types of problems frats have been associated with should be managed or resolved on campus, or if you feel that it is just something that can't be controlled or shouldn't be controlled - just part of the college scene? It sounds as though 1sokkermom's sons have found a great frat and have had a very positive experience. What, if anything, should be done about the other frats?</p>
<p>"What, if anything, should be done about the other frats?"</p>
<p>This is a topic for another thread. The major theme of those who are pro-frat on this thread is that there are a lot of good frats/sororities out there and if the student does adequate research they are likely to end up with a positive experience. What can be done to fix the bad apples is a completely different topic. It's like saying don't go to college since there are some colleges which are nothing but party schools.</p>
<p>"While there may be some inequalities in the system, essentially, the parameters for acceptance have nothing to do with beauty, popularity or compliance with silly, secretive and potentially hazardous activities."</p>
<p>Well I can't totally disagree with your criticism but I will point out a few errors. It is not a popularity or beauty contest. Maybe in some sororities or frats it is but that is not what I found for the most part. We looked for a pretty diverse group of individuals and they certainly wouldn't be winning any beauty contests and we really didn't know if they were popular or not. What would it matter at a whole new school, anyway. I can't speak for diversity in terms of race since I went to school in the middle of Iowa and the school as a whole wasn't diverse. </p>
<p>Sororities are very much about empowering women. I learned invaluable leadership skills in mine and I don't think I would have gotten that experience outside of my sorority considering my personality at the time. Heck, one of the founders of my sorority was an early womens right activist. I'll have to look it up to get her name. While Greeks have their foundation in a bygone era and still retain some of those traditions, they are evolving. Sometimes I think they have swung too far to the career/business model. I wrote a critical letter to my sorority newsletter (something I throw out pretty quickly) because they were covering stay at home moms from a career mindset: talking about moms who had made a "success" of being a stay at home mom. They published it. </p>
<p>And you know what, some of those traditions aren't so bad. I loved it when whole fraternities would come and serenade us or we would do the same.</p>
<p>fundingfather - I went away to college and lived in a dorm and I thank God I did. I met and had to learn to live with people who were very different from me - it opened my eyes and my world - it gave me increased sensitivity to others that I carry with me to this day, particularly useful in our multi-cultural society. Also, others got to experience ME and my different background and thoughts (weren't they lucky???). What memories I have of philosophical discussions that included some people I wouldn't dream of living with in an apartment or other self-selected situation!!! Oh, yes, I have memories of negatives as well! I can honestly say, though, that this exposure changed me - and it was not from being in class, but from living with others - having to live with others. I think colleges are not just academic training grounds but social training grounds and oh, how much social trainining and experience with others is needed today! I truly hope my son does not feel compelled to only meet and experience like-minded individuals - but I know how strong that desire is for most young people and, hey, even us adults. College may be the only time in his life when he has no choice but to meet and share, on equal ground, others lives, experiences and thought processes. If he lives in a frat house of people who are just like him, he will not have that experience or gain those insights - he will not learn how to connect well with everyone. Naturally, we all gradually find the people want to get that apartment with. Surprisingly, I did not choose my senior year apartment mates based on their likeness to me, though, but on their responsibility and compatibility. Also, as I recall, one of us had to have a car<g>. I do think social clubs that choose members as frats/sororities do are elititist - I know I am rigid in my thinking on this. It does make me happy to hear that most applicants are not rejected - how common is this I wonder? Still, I remain concerned about the drinking and hazing activities that flourish in the frat environment. I think the drinking is partly cultural, as I have said before. Drinking is a big problem in most high schools and across many campuses. The combination of an unsupervised house of 18 - 22 yos, a secret initiation process that is competitive in nature, coupled with a cultural trend towards excessive drinking is just problematic to me. I have to stop though - I am getting nothing else done and I realize part of this is my projected anxiety for my son - I am now wondering why I let him apply ED to a southern school where frats are cool and I need to let that go. I am going to drive myself crazy!</g></p>
<p>The only reason there is such a negative bias toward frats is that you only hear about them when something bad happens. The only time they are in the news is when someone dies of alcochol poisoning or something like that. You never hear about them when they aren't doing "bad" things. This can create a false image for many parents who immediately associate them with drinking. While I am not in college, many of my friends and relatives are and I can tell you that these stereotypres against frats, in most cases, are simply not true. Most frats are accepting of people who choose not to drink or party all the time. But of course, the parents who are so against them would never know that.</p>