PROS/CONS of a Fraternity

Parents Forum
281

<p>lischup your comments are very interesting to me - thanks for posting. Do you think frats are a similarily positive experiences for young men? Based on watching my son's friends, male and female, there are differences in maturity, I think. I am curious about a young person's perspective - do you see similar benefits for males in frats or do you think frats are about something else, like I am admittedly predisposed to thinking? </p>

<p>BTW, I employ several professional women and I find that the pendulum is swinging back to a desire to be a stay at home Mom. Actually, one of my son's friends, a senior, told me recently that she expects to stay home full time with her children. After having lived through the difficult times of gaining rights in and access to the work place, to a career, it's kind of like a slap in the face to see this emerging as a career "goal". However, I have also been a working Mom throughout my kids lives and it is not easy on me or my kids so I see both sides. I have a lot of part-time Moms working for me and I think that is a great balance for those who can make it work. Most wome will have to work at some time in their kids lives, even if they do not plan to - just an economic reality. But this is a topc for another thread......!</p>

282

<p>Rileydog,
Those are all legitimate concerns. I would honestly have the same concerns if my son decided to join a fraternity. I have the benefit of having had a positive experience, but I understand the fear and anxiety you have for your son.</p>

283

<p>I fully agree that there are many social people content with not being in a frat or sorority but I'm just saying that parents should not dismiss frats as being bad because each frat is different. Yes, there are those that drink 24 hours a day but there are those that host fun activities open to everyone without forcing them to drink alcohol. Frat is not synonymous with bad.</p>

284

<p>"While I don't agree with the hazing process, but requiring pledges to invest blood sweat and tears into the effort it insures that they are commited to the group</p>

<p>Yikes, blood, sweat and tears as evidence of commitment to a frat house, to your "brothers"? I could never agree with that. Pay your fee - that is evidence of commitment. Show up for all the required meetings and heck, why not go out and complete some social service if it is indeed a social service agency as evidence of your true commitment. What are they committing to that requires blood, sweat and tears as an investment? Wow is all that I can say to that - that is the type of thinking that really scares me.</p>

285

<p>While I agree that blood, sweat and tears may seem a little extreme, in a way, it makes sense. Money is a material posession that most college age students don't even think before spending. Besides, at most of the private schools in this country, the students who attend are rich, upper-class kids. Money is nothing to them because they dont know the value of it. In addition, the money would most liekly come from their parents. But your blood, sweat, and tears are unique and authentic. They come from no one but you and they show YOUR dedication and no one elses. Money can come from anywhere but these other things cannot. The only real measure of dedication to a cause is how much of your heart you are willing to put into it.</p>

286

<p>Devilsrule, how much of your heart or how much of your health? I have no problem with students putting their heart into their commitment, it is their health and safety I have a problem with.</p>

<p>I agree with your observations re: money - good points. I don't know where my son would get frat fees, though, since I would not pay them for him- I suppose many parents would. I am still left wondering what they have to sacrifice their health for? What type of commitment requires that? Only adolescents would think that they have to prove themselves at the risk of their health for the privelege of joining a club, IMNSHO.</p>

287

<p>Devilsrule:</p>

<p>You have unwittingly written the most powerful condemnation of fraternities I have ever read.</p>

<p>Guys who are too spoiled to know the value of money investing blood, sweat, and tears to prove their commitment to the "cause"?</p>

288

<p>It is an expression it wasn't meant to be taken quite as literally as you seem to be taking it. But if commitment to a group is a value. stress and the resulting hormones it produces seems to predispose identification with the group.
Look at how 9/11 bound together the nation, even if the only direct affect on many was job loss. Why did it take a national tragedy for Americans to feel connected?
Why do we love war so? because it unites us and gives common ground.
Why does this country have so many youth that feel at loose ends? Rituals are important to peoples every where, how else can you explain Mormonism as one of the fastest growing religions?
Even young children appreciate the value of ritual, how many pricked their fingers and swore to be friends forever?
There are some bad frats, there are colleges where abstaining from belonging to a group may leave you isolated on campus, but understanding that a group is more cohesive when the members have a shared experience, particulary if it has been stressful in some way, like running a marathon, being trapped in a snowstorm or serving in the military.
Who would you be more comfortable with in a stressful situation, someone that you had worked along side protecting your town from a flooding river or someone that joined your club cause they though it might be interesting, but you didn't really know anything about other than they brought interesting snacks?
This is really interesting to me as I never thought I would defend Greeks. My daughter chose to attend a college that doesn't have Greeks, I encouraged her not to apply to any schools where Greeks are a strong presence, yet I would not want to take away the opportunity to join a fraternity and be part of a structured group for others.
I also am not a hawk. But it should be obvious to any, that we as a nation embrace "war", not seek to avoid it.
However I hope that we begin to think of ourselves as citizens of the world where all are brothers.
This is more how I feel

[quote]
At a time when modern society normally slows a little, so families can come together, thousands, maybe millions, have recently had their relationships torn apart. Tragic as the Asian Tsunami has been for many visiting foreigners, those that survived, can at least leave the physical horror behind and fly home. But for vast multitudes ‘home’ has been washed away, along with their loved ones. They have no other place. As we open our wallets and our hearts for those in dire need of our support, this is a concept worth heeding, All of humanity, has indeed, no ‘other place’ to go. This planet is our home. Even as refugees, we have nowhere else to flee. Nor do any of the other species, with whom we share this tiny, water-covered orb of life. Respect and care for one another, may just help us get along – in this one place we all call ‘home’. TreeHugger wishes a happy and safe New Year for you and your world.

[/quote]
</p>

289

<p>It seems as if everyones mind was made up in pre-eternity on this one.
Looking through the posts it seems, to me, as if either
1. (con) Fraternities/sororities are evil and damned, or
2. (pro) Unaccountable for their actions, amoral (beyond good and evil) and merely status quo</p>

<p>Both seem patently false.</p>

<ol>
<li><p>A while back dmar gave what I thought was a very well reasoned post. It seemed to offer a correction to the excesses of the notorious frat behavior so often cited.
He was pilloried!
There were no congratulations, or "I wish most frats would adopt these policies" offered. Apparently even non-offending frats are evil and contemptable. Whether or not these reforms were brought on because of past indiscretions or not seems, to me, beside the point. Many great reforms have come about due to prior malfeasance, in fact most. It seems to me that MIT's frat would be a model of reform for the more egregious offenders.</p></li>
<li><p>On the other hand, the supports of the frat system seem to discount all the bad behavior to the effect that, 'everyone does it.' So! Even if that's true (which seems a stretch) how does that justify the criticism? Bad is Bad. No? What if we were talking about racism, or ethnocentricism? Would we say, everyone else does it? What's all the fuss about?</p></li>
</ol>

<p>What happened to the Golden Mean? It's more traditional than fraternities.
What happened to hate the sin love the sinner? (if you're of religious sensibilities)</p>

<p>Is everyone else always totally wrong?
It doesn't seem sensible to me.</p>

290

<p>A question I would like to ask, assuming those answering would be parents, would be:</p>

<p>If your child found a frat or sorority at the college which he or she is attending that they were truly happy with would you forbid them from trying to join? Even if that frat or sorority wasn't one that "forces" its members to drink?</p>

291

<p>Rileydog, You are falling back on stereotypes once again. A frat is not filled with homogenous people - they are a mixture of ethnicities, religions, social class and political views. The thing that they have in common is they get along with each other. Why do you think that you were able to get along with your dorm mates who were a mixture of all of the above, but a fraternity brother is incapable of doing so? It seems to me that if there is any elitism going on here, it is on the part of those who stubbornly cling to stereotypes of a group of people who they clearly know nothing about - and seem to be proud of the fact that they know nothing about them.</p>

292

<p>I haven't read most of the posts in this thread--you leave for a few days and when you get back.... but I would like to make a few comments on the frats at MIT. I told my son to go take a good look at the MIT frats. Why? Well, they have years and years of files of tests for most courses (in most frats); many are off-campus and thus not so deeply entrenched in the isolated life that is MIT; they have a social network of alums that is unparalleled. My son, nonetheless, decided frats weren't for him ("if 50% of guys live in a frat, and MIT is 40% female, and most girls are on campus in dorms... well, do the math, mom, do the math.").</p>

<p>If frats are so bad, and 50% of MIT men live in frats, how come MIT graduates are in such high demand? </p>

<p>Any frat is the sum of its members: research is absolutely key. Ask the members if anyone joined and then chose to leave. Go talk to that person. Talk to the deans about complaints against the frats.</p>

293

<p>"A thread full of many ridiculous unsubstantiated opinions will have done nothing (I hope) to change the mind of my undecided son about joining a fraternity! </p>

<p>I do appreciate the opinions of those with first hand experience, however."</p>

<p>I am not entirely sure that I understand that post correctly. I will, however, assume that it means that for having a valid opinion on this subject one has to be or have been a member of a fraternity, leaving the others to have "many ridiculous unsubstantiated opinions". </p>

<p>That is a rather interesting position! For example, among the members of CC, most everyone is or has been attending a high school, but I doubt that more than a handful of posters can claim to be experts on the subject of K-12 education on a national basis. Most everyone on CC is involved in appliying to colleges, yet very few can claim to know what happens outside a littel circle of knowledge. </p>

<p>When it comes to opinion, I'll take the road less travelled: the members from on single entity are the ones whose opinion could be dismissed because of the singularity of the experience. does the experience of one benign sorority on the west coast influences a hardcore fraternity on the east coast? Does being a member of the first mentioned sorority makes you an instant expert? </p>

<p>From my vantage point, I'll take reports and studies any time over the handful of personal experience, even if some dismiss it as "ridiculous unsubstantiated opinions". I'll keep on accepting the conclusions of a survey of over 100,000 students over the handful of "valuable opinions". </p>

<p>For that reason, the arguments offered by a poster like FundingFather fall flat on their face. The OVERWHELMING majority of the students belonging to fraternities ARE involved in binge drinking, not a small percentage. In this case, the exceptions do not confirm the rule. The stereotypes are not really stereotypes but correct assessments. If the pro-fraternities are complaining about a poor reputation, the blame falls entirely on them. Where are the reports of good actions? Where are all the positives? The reality is that they are so deeply hidden that most pro-frats cannot even express clear examples. </p>

<p>In this discussion, it is the pro-fraternities crowd who has consistently refused to look at the facts and preferred to retreat behind a curtain of indignation. No matter how hard I try to balance the opinions, I find the evidence about the known actions of fraternities to be mostly negative. You may dispute my conclusions, but you canhardly blame me for NOT having looked at the other side, starting with linking to the greekchat.com. I have checked multiple student websites and newspapers: when it comes to fraternities, most stories report repeated attacks by the faculty and administrations to curtail or eradicate the fraternities from their campus. Why would they do so, if the associations were so beneficial? Despite looking for hours, I have yet to read one report of a college that comes outright to recognize the benefits of greek life, and not mention severe hesitation. On the other hand, the stories about colleges booting the fraternities out of sight are almost every day fodder. </p>

<p>It is pretty easy to see that the die has been cast. Colleges with active fraternities are on their way to become as anachronistic as colleges without web access. There is a great chance of survival for the fraternities and sororities that focus exclusively on the positive -the type presented by Lizschup. The days for the ones that enjoy paddles for games of beer-pong or for hazing are numbered. It is no different from the process of eliminating smoking from public spaces. In the beginning there were loud disapproving noises, but surely the population at large started to realize how much more healthful the world is when smoking is no longer tolerated. The only question that remained unanswered was, "Why did it take so long to see the light?" </p>

<p>I have little doubt that when my children will be ready for college, they'll ask me to tell them stories about the time when drinking was allowed in the vicinity of a college campus. The same stories that your ancestors might have told you about prohibition in the 20s. </p>

<p>I will not shed a single tear, and probably enjoy the fact that this demise could have been caused entirely by ridiculous unsubstantiated opinions!</p>

294

<p>Rileydog,
I dated frat boys all through college and was a little sister in one. The ones I remember were great. Nicer than my own two brothers. Sure there were jerks and drunks but I stayed away from them. Certain fraternities had a higher percentage of nice guys or maybe it seemed that way because I got to know them. </p>

<p>I do think the same opportunities exist for guys in fraternities. You are literally living with 60 to 80 different people for three years and believe me they are not all alike. Maybe on a socio-economic scale but probably not in other ways. I think the diversity is more determined by the college you go to rather than a frat or sorority but again my college was not diverse. My diversity was getting to know what life on a farm is like. (which is not a bad thing to learn) My high school was more diverse than college.</p>

<p>I agree that the maturity makes a huge difference and some kids can judge for themselves where they belong better than others. I would really counsel waiting till sophomore year to go through rush. It helps the student gain maturity and confidence so that they don't "rush" into a bad decision in order to find belonging. (an easy thing to do in those first few months of college) I believe some campuses have required that rush can't take place until sophomore year. </p>

<p>I am 48 which certainly doesn't seem young to me but I stepped in after the difficult work was done of women being accepted in the work force. I also chose a field that welcomes women. I have done all three -worked full time , part time and not at all (in the work force). I don't know what the right balance is. I could write a book on this because I used to be so enraged at the attitudes toward stay at home moms. I think Minnesota has the highest percentage of working moms in the country so I was a fish out of water. I think you can work successfully if you have a very evolved husband(mine is evolved in other ways but not domestically) or a good support system of family or make enough money to hire people to do it all. I had none of the above and couldn't live with the guilt. Staying at home can be hard on your mental health and your confidence but contrary to popular belief, it was good for my kids. I'm in school full time and racking up more than 40 hours a week, so my daughter is experiencing the other side of the coin and she doesn't like it. Working part time again is my goal and yes it is an economic reality for us. Sometimes I wonder if I did the right thing because I'm now on my way to going back to work when I have friends who are talking about retiring. </p>

<p>And emeraldkity, that was a great post.</p>

295

<p>Fundingfather, apparently there are frats and sororities with a measure of diversity in them, but talking to people about their greek experiences just confirms my (northern anti-greek) stereotypes about them....comments like,"My sorority, Tri-Delt, at Vanderbilt.....We had ONLY the most BEAUTIFUL girls from the very FINEST families.." Give me a break....sounds pretty elitest to me.....</p>

296

<p>"My sorority, Tri-Delt, at Vanderbilt.....We had ONLY the most BEAUTIFUL girls from the very FINEST families.."</p>

<p>dke, did that quote come from greekchat?</p>

297

<p>no, it came from someone I KNOW......scary....</p>

298

<p>Xiggi, the study that you refer to as your primary justification for your opinion contains a term which reflects a potential bias in the study. The term "binge" drinking has a highly negative connotation. If someone were to ask me what binge drinking was, I would say it is someone who puts down enough alcohol in a sufficiently short time to be a roaring drunk - one who's purpose in drinking was to get roaring drunk. When I see the definition of binge drinking from the Harvard study, 5 drinks over in indeterminate amount of time, I wouldn't classify it is necessarily an example of aberrant behavior. So, you can state that study as proof of your point, but to me, it proves nothing. I don't think that anyone would claim that frat members don't drink more than the student population as a whole. But, first that does not prove a cause and effect relationship and secondly, it does not necessarily imply negative behavior. One could easily take the other side and say that the guys who stay in their dorm room playing video games, while not drinking, are getting less from their college experience than those who are out socializing. If I had to choose where I would rather have my son be: sequestered in a dorm room or out developing social skills, I would take the latter.</p>

299

<p>Xiggi, I agree with you about frats, but I'm afraid that you're in a pretty rarified envrironment and in the minority in your thinking....Culturally, I think that most people in the US(certainly South, MIdwest) approve of Greek Life..... Growing up in the Northeast I wasn't familiar with the whole Greek culture ...but now that I'm living in the Southeast I realise what a big deal it is....some people consder it to be the essence of the college experience.</p>

300

<p>"For example, one frat at Sokkermon's school was decertified for repeated brawls on campus." - Quote from InterestedDad</p>

<p>Thanks, ID., but I am pretty sure I never ever mentioned "my school". I really do not take claim to my son's school, and admit I don't know much about the frats there. I do know intuitively that they all should not be judged based on a single house. I will say it again - son is a bright boy and will reasearch this decision and make it on his own. You obviously have your opinion, and he will form his own. He is an athlete, and never drank in high school and doesn't plan to take it up now. Imagine that!</p>

<p>I was indeed in a sorority (Delta Zeta) at "my school" in the late 70's, and I was not an alcoholic then, nor am I now! I am probably the most "non-sorority" type person I know. </p>

<p>Well, we are waiting for son to return from his workout and training run. We have tickets to a non-alcoholic family theater presentation tonight. I wonder how many of you non-frat guys will be celebrating tonight with alcohol?</p>

<p>Happy New Year!</p>