<p>I guess, in the end, like most choices in life, it comes down to the individual. Some individuals may enjoy the Greek experience while, to others, it is not a welcome option. So, ultimately, one must trust their own instincts about what is right for them personally. Just remember there are consequences - often unintended - to every decision. Anyone who reads the articles about Xiggi's friend - and his desire to "find friends" as a reason for joining a fraternity, would certainly think twice about the decision to join a fraternity without due dilligence into the practices, culture, and experiences offered by any particular chapter. Yes, people often drink too much at college --- but be careful about joining an organization where taking such risks is celebrated.</p>
<p>"I appreciate the last few posts. They seem to be more real and experienced, not just a replay of Animal House and the sheltered views of unknowing parents."</p>
<p>I am not a parent and my views might be sheltered. However, I guarantee you that the experience of standing in front of the coffin of one of my dearest friends is as real as it gets. The cause of his death is undeniably and directly linked to a fraternity. </p>
<p>If it was not for ridiculously lax laws in Colorado, the members of the fraternity would be facing felony, and not misdemeanor charges. The charges would have included manslaughter, and each of the members who participated in the hazing would have deserved the indictment. The defense that the hazing took place outside the frat house and was supposedly not authorized by the national charters is a weak leaf to hide behind. Forcing anyone to consume one quart of scotch and two quarts of wine in 30 minutes is simply barbaric and criminal. </p>
<p>Sheltered people might believe that there is a strong relation between abnormal alcohol consumption and fraternities' activities. They believe it because it is the plain reality. </p>
<p>If fraternities had one small iota of conscience, they would push for zero tolerance and outright banning of alcohol consumption. That would, however, cut down their main attraction. </p>
<p>Accidents -or incidents as people tend to call them- always happen to OTHER people. The day it will hit closer to your home is the day that you might see the darker side of the coin.</p>
<p>{{{{Xiggi}}}}</p>
<p>While I didn't pursue joining a frat during my college experience, I didn't attempt to influence my kids either way. Some campuses have naturally strong social communities, either through "houses", strong dorm identities, eating clubs, other groups, etc. Frats and sororities can certainly help fill the gap on campuses that lack that kind of infrastructure. I also agree with those who commented that the networking connections among frat alums is a lot stronger than the general alum population; a student going into law, banking, or other profession where a contact list is critical might see some additional benefits from being part of the Greek system.</p>
<p>Greek organizations certainly have some negatives, notably the ability to be a major distraction from academics between required activities, athletics, partying, etc. I'm sure that some percentage of students fail to cope and end up in difficulty. (To their credit, it seems that many fraternities do try and help members who are having academic problems.)</p>
<p>And while I'd like to believe that most Greek organizations have eliminated dangerous hazing stunts and attempt to be responsible about alcohol abuse, it's clear that not all have gotten the message. In today's litigious society, though, I think those organizations that continue risky practices won't be insurable and will be sued into extinction.</p>
<p>Btw, my more or less current info on fraternities & sororities is from students and parents connected with UCLA, USC, U/Missouri, U/Alabama, and Vanderbilt. I do not rely on "Animal House" and can generally distinguish fact from fiction. </p>
<p>Carolyn, it would be interesting to nail down whether those kinds of exclusionary practices still pertain. I suspect they do but the input I've gotten hasn't addressed that.</p>
<p>Roger, I admit that a strong alumni network was one of the plusses on my D's list of colleges. Concede that Greek-based is one way of accomplishing this...but not the only.</p>
<p>Fraternities by nature are exclusionary, are often pretentiously elitist and therefore antithetical to an education that values understanding, acceptance, and even reverence for differences. </p>
<p>Any positive social or academic value they offerred colleges has been repeatedly overwhelmed by their negative impacts on colleges and their communities. You don't have to be drunk and loud to be young and proud.</p>
<p>I am sorry for Xiggi's friend, but one has to put tragic incidences such as this in perspective. To demonize all fraternities based upon the actions of a few is like blaming all high school athletic programs because some go overboard and have hazing incidences that result in tragic outcomes. </p>
<p>A significant part of the responibility is with the student himself. He should research any fraternity before he decides to pledge. Certainly the nature of any house should be well known before a bid to pledge is accepted. Another significantly responsible institution is the university. Unfortunatley the University of Colorado has developed quite a reputation as an out-of-control party school lately. To blame all fraternities because a university allows rogue chapters to exist is not consistent with logic.</p>
<p>The frat scene at SDSU by nature, clearly involves a great deal of alcohol consumption. My entire dorm floor, all the friends I had made in the first month of school joined the same frat. I also decided to pledge, I did not go to the "rush" week though, I was later recruited. I've noticed a whole array of guys in my frat, from studious guys to alcoholics. Not sure if you've looked at a frat this way, that not every frat guy is the same and there is a diverse amount of frat boys not only in the whole frat world, but in certain fraternities. Clearly you have to pay money to be in a frat, if you can not afford it with EASE i would def. not recommend a frat. So far, the pros have been advice given to me about certain professors and we were actually "forced" to go speak with our professors, plus it seems as though our president is always on our case to meet academic obligation. As a pledge, you experience hardships - your treated with no respect - which is very similiar to starting out in the job world i suppose. Plus you really do build bonds with all your fellow pledges, because you experience the hardships together and everyone has to be on top of everything, which involves lots of networking and communications skills, which is another good trait you can pick up from a frat. The only way my frat is exclusionary is if a pledge isn't giving his all, although I wasn't there for rush week so I'm not sure exactly how the bids go...that might be the exclusionary part. I imagine rush week is weird, it's just massive amounts of flirting that takes place between guys. As i've stated before lots of consumption of alcohol takes place in the frat and truthfully, I rarely drink, I think I was drunk more often in high school, so it's really up to the person as to whether or not they care to partake in the drinking. Because of the frat i've met countless girls, and i've had many enjoyable social experiences, which is another perk. The cons, however, include the heat you take for being in a frat "see posts above", I just hope people don't automatically judge you as that type of person. Cons can include hazing, very time consuming, and just stupidity.</p>
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<blockquote> <p>The cons, however, include the heat you take for being in a frat "see posts above", I just hope people don't automatically judge you as that type of person. </p> </blockquote>
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<p>I don't understand. If you decide to become a "frat boy", why would you object to people thinking of you as a "frat boy"?</p>
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<blockquote> <p>I am sorry for Xiggi's friend, but one has to put tragic incidences such as this in perspective. </p> </blockquote>
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<p>I think we are putting these activities in perspective -- the perspective that every student alchohol related death reported in the media this year has been associated with fraternities.</p>
<p>It isn't the initiation activities at the Literary Clubs or Debate Teams that are killing undergrads.</p>
<p>I'm not objecting to being a frat boy, i'm objecting to fitting the stereotypes of a "frat boy"</p>
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<blockquote> <p>I think we are putting these activities in perspective -- the perspective that every student alchohol related death reported in the media this year has been associated with fraternities</p> </blockquote>
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<p>I haven't made such a study but would be interested in any links that you can provide to confirm your statement. On the other hand, If we go by incidences of improper hazing as reported by the media as a rationale to ban or castigate all related activities, then, by all means, we should ban high school athletics because of the reports on hazing incidents.</p>
<p>To the original poster: One more article for you to show your parents.
<a href="http://www.denverpost.com/Stories/0,1413,36%257E53%257E2422774,00.html%5B/url%5D">http://www.denverpost.com/Stories/0,1413,36%257E53%257E2422774,00.html</a></p>
<p>And, funding father, you might be interested in reading the links I list below. One brings up an important point that has not yet been mentioned: Frats and sororities are not run or even governed by the school on most college campuses - they are run and governed by a bunch of 18-21 year olds with little or no adult supervision. In most lawsuits, it is the fraternity that will be paying $$ when a death or accident occurs, not the university. I thought this was interesting and important. By the way, there were six alcohol-related deaths on college campuses this past semester, Fall 2004.</p>
<p>ttp://<a href="http://www.denverpost.com/Stories/0,1413,36%257E53%257E2420176,00.html">www.denverpost.com/Stories/0,1413,36%257E53%257E2420176,00.html</a></p>
<p>Not to beat a dead horse, but here are the results of a study of over 25,000 college students about their views towards alcohol. The study was conducted by Cornell University. As you can see from the excerpt below, saying "But all college students drink" isn't exactly true - Members of Frats and Sororities drink much more than the typical college student.</p>
<p>The survey revealed: </p>
<p>Seventy-four percent of fraternity leaders reported episodes of binge drinking in the previous two weeks, and leaders on average consumed 14 drinks a week. Sorority leaders reported a 55 percent binge drinking rate and six drinks per week. </p>
<p>For actively involved fraternity members (non-leaders), 73 percent reported binge drinking episodes and an average consumption of 12 drinks per week. For actively involved sorority members, the numbers were 57 percent and six drinks, respectively. </p>
<p>For those who reported only attending fraternity/sorority events, 58 percent of the men and 46 percent of the women reported episodes of binge drinking, and an average weekly consumption of 8 and 4 drinks, respectively. </p>
<p>The figures for students not involved in Greek life were the lowest of all. Forty-two percent of the men and 26 percent of the women reported binge drinking episodes. Non-Greeks reported an average weekly consumption of six drinks for men and two drinks for women. </p>
<p>The authors also found dramatic differences in the adverse consequences experienced by the students in the previous year as a result of their use of alcohol or other drugs: </p>
<p>Hangovers: For males, leaders reported in at 82 percent; actively involved members, 79 percent; those attending functions only, 72 percent; those not involved, 57 percent. For females, leaders reported in at 79 percent; actively involved members, 72 percent; those attending functions only, 66 percent; those not involved, 50 percent. </p>
<p>Arguments and fights: For males, leaders reported in at 53 percent; actively involved members, 46 percent; attended functions only, 38 percent; those not involved, 26 percent. For females, leaders reported in at 44 percent; actively involved members, 41 percent; those who attended functions only, 36 percent; those not involved, 23 percent. </p>
<p>Blackouts: For males, leaders reported in at 53 percent; actively involved members, 44 percent; those attending functions only, 39 percent; those not involved, 23 percent. For females, leaders reported in at 46 percent; actively involved members, 42 percent; those attending functions only, 38 percent; those not involved, 19 percent. </p>
<p>In addition, the researchers looked at beliefs that students hold about alcohol. Among the more striking findings was the clear connection between alcohol and sexuality. Approximately 68 percent of the men and 50 percent of the women involved in Greek life endorsed the belief that alcohol facilitates sexual opportunities, compared with 53 percent of the men and 37 percent of the women who were not involved in Greek life. Similar patterns were evident with respect to beliefs regarding social interaction.</p>
<p>Link to full article: <a href="http://www.scienceblog.com/community/older/1997/A/199700310.html%5B/url%5D">http://www.scienceblog.com/community/older/1997/A/199700310.html</a></p>
<p>Carolyn, thank you for taking the time to post the links and the research. </p>
<p>Despite my strong feelings about the correlation of drinking and fraternities, I agree that it is improper to demonize all fraternities and sororities. That is why I would like to see a strong message sent by the headquarters about zero or extremely low tolerance of alcohol. I also understand FundingFather's message about personal responsibilities. The only problem with that is that it does not take much alcohol or the ever-present peer pressure for a freshman to forget the safety lessons that parents hoped their children would remember. I would also like to point out that there might be a reason why we set legal restrictions of alcohol consumption and purchase at an age that is a few years remote from the typical freshman. Without being that naive to believe that most students do not know how to skate around the laws, I believe that a much smaller number of students have gained much experience in consuming large quantities of alcohol. The victims themselves are bearing a share of the responsibilities, but confining the blame sharing to the victims does not send us towards a possible solution. </p>
<p>The lack of experience, the lack of parental guidance, and the pressure to fit in represent a lethal combination for students who make the transition from living at home to living in a college environment. In a quasi perfect world, the fraternities and sororities should provide an additional safety net for the influenceable. Does anyone really believe that this happens?</p>
<p>So do you decide not to let your kid get a driver's license because most fatalities of high school kids happen behind the wheel? Do you keep your spouse from salt because of the risk of hypertension? You stay out of tall buildings because of 9/11?</p>
<p>I am not defending frats.... but we live in a society which self-medicates to an astonishing degree, and then tries to point fingers at "the other" since of course, we are blameless. For those of you who think that just because your kids aren't in a frat they're not engaging in risky behavior, think again. A local college had a problem last year when a bunch of high school girls started hanging out on the quad looking for "action." Where are their parents, and why is it the colleges fault if underage girls have nothing better to do on a weekend? Who are all these hundreds of college women who show up at frats on Saturday nights looking for a party? Spare us all the self-righteous cant. There are kids who engage in self-destructive behaviors who are members of fraternities and kids who do the same who are not. As I recall, none of the suicides last year at NYU were of fraternity members.... so now we're excluding suicide as a form of self-destructive behavior???</p>
<p>Taken in totality, the late adolescent years are dangerous ones. I know two young college women in the last year who have died of cardiac arrest... not substance related, but from bulimia. Are their deaths less painful, or less preventable, than all these others????</p>
<p>To decide that one group of kids is immune from trouble strikes me as ridiculous, and to decide that another group of kids is the source and cause of all risky behavior is equally ridiculous. The statistics you cite are of little comfort.... ONLY 37% of non-Greek women believe that alcohol facilitates sexual opportunies? It's something to brag about that over 1/3 of college women need to or want to be drunk in order to "hook up", and that's somehow laudable compared to the 50% of sorority members???</p>
<p>You guys need a reality check. College is dangerous in a lot of ways, so if demonizing frats makes you feel better, go for it. Better yet, find out what YOUR kid does on a Saturday night.</p>
<p>I don't like fraternities. But I do feel that it is a family/individual decision. I think my opinion about frats would change completely if they made it their cumulative mission to eliminate underage and excessive drinking along with hazing on campus. It would truly be a favor to current and future college students and make a striking mark.</p>
<p>Fundingfather-
I can't get with the "blame the victim" mentality. There are a lot of pressures on adolescents/young adults. To say no to a hazing stunt is to say no the the fraternity pledge. Most basic social psychology studies address peer pressure, and the power of group influence. What college underclassman wanting to fit in and be accepted can stand up to the group pressure? Hopefully some, but likely, not many. And sad but true, many college students have the "I am invincible" mentality - not too many 18 yr olds are thinking about their imminent demise. There is a great thread somewhere on CC about what what stupid stuff we (parents) did in college. While some of the stories are entertaining (mostly from the 70's) few said they would do it again, looking back on their risky behaviors.
And Blossom- I have to disagree-- you clearly ARE defending frats. If I want to go on a diet, I stay out of the candy store. Yes, college can be dangerous-- but statisitcally,the risks are higher for those that go drag racing on a regular basis than those that go to the library.</p>
<p>Okay, the reality is that most kids in college drink. Some drink past their limits, do something they'll regret later because of drunkenness, or let drinking interfere with their studying. But not most. Our school had a study that showed 93% of our students don't let drinking interfere with their academics. I know soo many people who party at frats safely and responsibly--meaning they don't drink too much, watch out for the friends they came with, and have a great time. Someone made the point that some students will party or engage in risky behavior regardless of whether or not frats exist, and that is true. The individual should be held accountable for his or her actions, and not the Greek system. Frats provide a place where partying (generally) can be safely contained. At our school the campus police walk through each frat at least one a night on party nights to check up on things. They're not naive enough to think that underrage people aren't drinking there, and probably know that kids put down their drinks before they come in. But the walk-throughs let them make sure everyone is safe (not vomiting, passed out on the floor, etc.). Most schools have some kind of system to keep an eye on the Greek scene. And I think it's nice to have a place where all the partiers can go--without frats partying would occur more frequently in the dorms, and bother people there who are trying to study or sleep. </p>
<p>I think it's a little naive to hope your child will choose not to drink in college, or to dream that Greek houses will adopt a zero tolerance policy. Drinking is going to go on. College is about learning responsibility and making mature decisions, and I think that drinking CAN be handled in a mature way. I'd say since most of you are concerned/involved enough in your childrens' lives to spend time posting on a board like this, you probably don't have to worry. While your kids are off learning how to be independent, it's your job to learn how to trust their choices.</p>
<p>Carolyn, the fact that the universities had the power to close down the offending frats tells me that they had the power to set rules to avoid the problem of rogue frats to begin with. I am certainly not defending these frats - the CU frat in particular deserves to be closed and prosecuted. However, to take these isolated cases and extrapolate them to the entire universe of frats is not fair. </p>
<p>As one of the articles that you linked mentions, frats are a fat target. Of the deaths that are mentioned, the frat is only indirectly involved in at least two of them: in one case a female had emailed her friends about how she planned to get totally wasted for the CSU-CU football game. Accordingly, she started drinking before, during and after the game - and at many different venues. She finally collapsed and ultimately died at a frat, but I would say that in her case she bore the brunt of the responsibility for her own death - not the frat. In another case that was cited, the dead student indeed was a frat member, but he did not live at the frat house, nor did he do his drinking at the frat house. Rather, he did it at his off-campus apartment. If he happened to be Catholic, it would be just as logical to blame the Vatican for his death as his fraternity.</p>
<p>jym626, I agree that the hazing death is hard to find the frat faultless and as I said above, they should be severley punished for their involvement. However, I do believe that the student has the responsibility and the opportunity before alcohol is involved to research what kind of guys he is getting himself involved with. The message that I would like to leave with the OP, who does seem inclined to join a frat, is to use the pre-pledge period to really get to know what type of guys are in each frat - and then choose one who's members are not the types that might result in hazing or induced over-drinking. This is the research that my son did and he is happy with the results.</p>