<p>Honestly, I don't know why I started this post in the first place. I have been going to different frats all first semester, and although at first I really never thought I would join a frat, I have changed my mind and my opinion of them because I have grown to realize that frats at Tulane are not like they are in stereotype. I have met alot of the brothers and grown really close to alot of them. Furthermore, most of my really good friends hang out at that frat alot and that would only be more incentive for me to pledge. Althgough this thread isnt helping my intention (despite the fact that I realize my intention was decided before starting this topic), I think it is a truly great thread with alot of great insight from all sorts of people. Keep it coming!</p>
<p>i also am sorry for xiggi's about his friend -i know what it's like to loose a friend, or family member.. last time i counted i've had 12 school friends die in the past 7 years.. but - i am assuming that nobody forced him to join a fraternity, that he did it on his own free will, and while he may not have chosen to consume all of that alcohol like that, he (i am assuming) put himself in the situation. this goes for most of these alcohol related deaths. i feel for the friends and families of these people .. but the blame cannot be placed fully on the greek organization in charge of the party. yes, they were responsible for the hazing, but at the same time, the student put themself in the situation to be a victim of that hazing by choice. (i would assume). if the student lives, they should both be held accountable for what happened. it's the same as kids being killed in car accidents, or in drug incidents, or other related deaths.</p>
<p>In thinking about this, while still not a fan of the exclusivity of Frat/Sororities, it seems the issue is the culture of drinking that exists on all campuses. Maybe it's time to bring back housemothers and other visible adults - someone to balance the overwhelmingly youthful and inexperienced forces driving the social scene. When else in life does a person have no accountability, no monitoring, no consequences and complete freedom? If nothing else, a housemother is not your son's peer group pushing him along - she could be the one contact he had today that gave him perspective on his planned or current behavior and choices. Just having a few more visible adults in the living areas would be an improvement. As a parent, yikes, I don't want to pay $30k to $40k for the privelege of hazing and initiation rights.....parents should be able to have some constructive input into the character and operation of the frats/sororities</p>
<p>The frats are pretty good with "snow jobs" on the parents, convincing them that the fraternities their kids join are about something other than "frat parties" and "frat boy" activities. The whole endeavor is built on a foundation of turning a blind eye.</p>
<p>Here's a sobering fact: the cost of liability insurance for fraternities now runs $100 to $140 PER MEMBER PER YEAR.</p>
<p>Fortunately, fraternity membership appears to be in a steady decline nationwide. Many of the national organizations face a fiscal crunch as "risk management" costs increase and membership dues decline. </p>
<p>They appear to be in a Catch-22 situation. Membership is declining largely because the majority of today's college students don't want a drunken party scene to interfere with their educations and because increased diversity on campus makes exclusionary groups less attractive. The fraternities respond with "alcohol-free" and "total man" initiatives. But, these efforts make the frats less attractive to the only people who want to join in the first place -- the hard core party crowd.</p>
<p>fendergirl, I agree with your post, but for initiation when pledges basically sign their life away to the frat saying they don't care what happens to them, they are acknowledging that some uncomfortale things will happen, but at the same time trusting the frat to value their health and not push them beyond the realm of physical danger. As in, not "hey look he's barfing, let's make him drink more!"</p>
<p>I understand they (pledges) put themselves in a position where alcohol will [likely] be involved, but I don't think they believe it will put them in danger.</p>
<p>interesteddad: you have the right to your opinion and I absolutely agree that I wouldn't want my sons joining a fraternity with hazing and where the focus is drinking. What I don't understand is why you believe that nobody should join fraternities. I'm not saying they are for everybody, but it has certainly added to the experience for both my sons and I can honestly say that I am glad they joined. I am not, however, saying they are for your family.</p>
<p>As for the "snow job", I can't recall the fraternity every contacting me in any way to sell me on anything. My experience comes from what I have seen in my sons. Also the "focus" has been on brotherhood, academics, athletics and leadership. My very shy son has been elected to the executive board of his fraternity which certainly surprised me. He had a 3.9 GPA this last semester in Engineering. He participated in 6 intramural sports and has made very, very good friends among some very mature and bright young men. This is not a "snow job" the fraternity has done on me, but facts.</p>
<p>If you believe that the only people who join frats are the "hard core party crowd" you are the one being sold a bill of goods. I'm obviously never going to convince you otherwise because your mind is closed to the possibilities. And you're not going to convince me because I have seen for myself the benefits. But for others who still have an open mind: research the individual fraternity. Not all of them haze and not all of them focus on the party scene.</p>
<p>I think the original poster was soliciting the opinions of parents (or students)with direct fraternity experience (ex: fundingfather and boysmom), rather than just opinions by those who have no direct fraternity experience, but just opinions based on their perceptions which are based on what they may have read, or what they hear others say. (ex: interesteddad).</p>
<p>I tend to agree that direct experience is much more convincing. I also agree that the student(s) who die because of alcohol consumption could and would consume alcohol with or without any fraternity affiliation. As previous posters have stated, no one is holding a gun to a kid's head and telling him or her to drink. </p>
<p>I was a member of a sorority (in the dark ages). It was certainly a life experience. There were many social activities where alcohol was served. No one ever forced me to drink. Again, I would leave the choice up to my son (or daughter) to join such an organization. However, I agree with boysmom. If you think that your kid will not be exposed to drinking (or drugs) in college if they go to campuses without a perceived "Greek culture", then you have indeed buried your head in the sand!</p>
<p>I reviewed Crackah's OP. Sounds like he is saying he has already selected the frat he wants to join, and is looking for ways to sell it to his parents. This is going to solicit responses from people on both sides of this argument, and I think that is how it should be. Not all frats are major party palaces, but a female friend of my s. said, at a recent get-together, that the only place on campus that she has had any problem with sexual harassment/pressure is at the frat houses. Yes, I am sure there can be other places where this can occur-- I am merely summarizing her comments about her experience.
I would be interested in knowing more about the initiation rituals of the sororities,as I am sure they differ significantly from the frat hazing. Hazing is horrible-- I think if that didn't exist, the image of frats would improve.</p>
<p>I have nothing positive to say about Fraternities. I would not recommend you join one. However, my cousin, a person I respect greatly, was a Delta Keppa Upselon at Michigan (same fraternity that Gerald Ford belonged to when he was a student at Michigan), and he loved it. So it is up to the individual.</p>
<p>thedad--I'm sorry to hear that your outlook on fraternities at UCLA is so negative. Unfortunately, I don't have the time to read the Daily Bruin on-line every day, but I am fully aware that Greek life does bring negatives with it. Our S was a GDI (as you phrase it) for his freshman year; however, dorm life was not conducive to getting to know a cross-section of students (mostly freshmen and sophomores) nor did it allow him to stay comfortably on campus during spring break (no cooking facilities, etc.). He himself realizes that the house and the brothers were not everything he expected them to be, but the fraternity provided a safe, affordable alternative to dorm living and a good precursor to apartment living. He has returned to being independent and helps out at the house for only select activities because his circle of friends has expanded beyond it. For him, it was a learning experience and he and we are glad that he made that educated choice.</p>
<p>soccerguy, come on, you know what "happens" at frat's during pledging. i'm sure people that are about to pledge know that as well... I know at my school there is a no hazing policy for frats, and if any sort of hazing is reported they get in trouble. i'm not sure if they loose their status or what happens, as it hasn't happened yet.</p>
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<blockquote> <p>Also the "focus" has been on brotherhood, academics, athletics and leadership. </p> </blockquote>
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<p>Why does liability insurance cost $100 to $140 per student to cover "brotherhood" (whatever that means), academics, athletics, and leadership?</p>
<p>BUT what about the students that die during athletic team hazing? Should we now ban all sports at college because of a few incidents? As a brother at a fraternity, I agree that forcing people to drink too much is a bad thing, but this does not happen at all fraternities! Many are responsible and make sure that all activities will be safe for everyone. </p>
<p>Also, there is more to a fraternity than parties. You do not join just to party; you can go to the parties without being a member. It takes a great deal of time and planning to throw a party, and during most of the brothers can't even drink much because there is a lot of work to do keeping people safe and monitoring the guests.</p>
<p>And what about the good things done, like community service? It is not required but almost all chapters still do it. And at my school, fraternities and sororities raised nearly $100,000 for charity over the past year. You like to overlook that don't you? I cannot stand people making false statements and generalizing about all fraternities. Just because a handful are bad and should be shut down, does not mean the whole greek system is bad!</p>
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<p>I believe that the whole approach to high school and college athletics needs to be reconsidered. The number one area of concern should be an environment where athletes form a separate culture, divorced from the overall campus community.</p>
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<blockquote> <p>And at my school, fraternities and sororities raised nearly $100,000 for charity over the past year. </p> </blockquote>
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<p>What's the split between the sororities and the frats? I see a lot of "window-dressing" PR stuff from frats. For example a frat at Duke that was dissolved in the mid-1990s for repeated disciplinary violations. It was re-instated in 1999 with a PR effort called "The Balanced Man Program" initiated by the national headquarters to combat the negative "frat boy" stereotypes. Their big "community service" activity is sponsoring "dorm wars" -- a freshman intramural competition that raises a whopping $1000 for the Ronald McDonald house.</p>
<p>Now that this discussion has grown to 5 pages I might as well weigh in with my learned opinion. Frats (and srats) suck and should be banned. They serve no useful purpose whatsover that can't be accomplished through other benign campus organizations. So there!</p>
<p>Well, if the focus should be put on the good actions, why not transform the image of "greek life" entirely and conclusively. Why fight for the right to continue to serve booze and why not abandoning the hazing that CAUSE deaths? Why are fraternities fighting for the right to keep on violating laws about serving liquor to minors. For the people who posted tthat it is the students who put themselves in the dangerous situation, it may be valuable to remember that our legal system has long established that bars and restaurants -and individuals- that serve liquor to minors or serve customers past the level of intoxication ARE legally responsible. </p>
<p>As far as pretending that the activities among fraternities are a simple mirror image of the rest of the campus, that is pure and unaldulterated baloney; 80% of students are NOT binge drinkers. </p>
<p>If the fraternities are meant to do good, let them focus on that role SOLELY. Let them become social groups that welcome HEAVY scrutiny rather than being directed by a bunch of grossly irresponsible pimple-faced goons who are permitted to act behing a curtain of secrecy. </p>
<p>I hope that the actions taken -much too late- in Oklahoma will be long lasting and far-reaching: all fraternities will have to be a dry zone, and the responsible parties in the death accidents will have to face criminal charges. Just as society had to ban smokers from public spaces to become effective, I hope that the ban of alcohol in the fraternities will bring us back to a path of sanity. </p>
<p>The reality is that the fraternities SHOULD be at the forefront of the fight to eliminate excessive drinking on campus. Despite the comments of the "educated" parents, this is NOT what is happening today. Fraternities have demosntrated that they are incapable and not deserving of being self-moderated and self-directed. </p>
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[quote]
He says that students can put the alcohol down at any time. "No one is forcing them to drink it," he said. But that is easy for him to say, he acknowledges, considering he does not have to face the pressure in that type of situation.</p>
<p>The type of peer pressure the average fraternity member experiences causes him to drink three times as many drinks as the average male college student , reported Han Nuwer, author of "Wrongs of Passage: Fraternities, Sororities and Binge Drinking." He also says sorority members drink twice as many drinks as their non-sorority females. Four out of five fraternity and sorority members consider themselves as binge drinkers, according to a report from the school of Public Health at Harvard. </p>
<p>As the case unfolds, the president of Sigma Chi and other members of the fraternity could face criminal charges in Hammontree's death. Police have to take into consideration who bought the beer and encouraged the drinking before anyone will be charged, said the Oklahoma Daily.</p>
<p>These three students are the latest to fall victim to a killer that is blamed for 1,400 college deaths per year, according to the National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism.
Borrowed from <a href="http://www.thetigernews.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2004/10/15/416f0a91eda68%5B/url%5D">http://www.thetigernews.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2004/10/15/416f0a91eda68</a>
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<p>-As long as hazing and drinking are done properly no one gets hurt. Many of these problems occur when things go much to far.</p>
<p>-$79,842 were raised by fraternities and $17,661 were raised by sororities. On my campus there are about 2/3 less sororities than fraternities.</p>
<p>The most heinous story I've ever read was about a group of young men at a nearby campus who systematically debased another during a night of drunken partying. They were drunk enough and stupid enough to take photos, which were circulated. A lawsuit was filed; the story was huge in the local newspaper.</p>
<p>They were members of --- wait, omgosh! They weren't in a fraternity! Is it possible that hazing and alcohol/drug abuse occurs outside the Greek system on campuses?</p>
<p>Perspective, everyone! Just because you've all known that obnoxious frat guy somewhere along the line does not mean they are all evil. There has to be some reason the system survived through the '60's. I always thought fraternities existed because boys wanted to meet sorority girls. Or for the secret handshakes. </p>
<p>It would be simple for them to control the hazing incidents by requiring an alum advisor to be on hand for any such activities. The alcohol is a tougher one and my brain does not permit me to believe it's a problem confined to the Greek organizations. It's a problem of the young, the impulsive, the addiction-prone and the stupid, and there's more of those than all the frats and sororities on any campus can pledge.</p>
<p>Interesting discussion. If the alumni advisor was present at parties, I wonder if the students would be. How could an alumni advisor be present if alcohol was served - imagine his/her liability - basically breaking the law. If alcohol was not served, would there be a party at the frat house? While alcohol on campus is clearly an issue broader than Frats/Sororities, frats/sororoties have the freedom from oversight and the organization of like minded participants to effectively have parties where anything goes. But, in reality, these activities continue because administrators, parents and other involved adults look the other way and passively support it. I think it is societal in nature. Last spring a post-prom party for juniors was held by a set of parents in our town - complete with parents serving alcohol in a "safe" place. The parents did not alert other parents but did invite everyone. They were unable to control the chaos and excess - currently facing charges and they have a lot to lose. In discussing this issue with other parents last spring I was suprised to find that most parents seemed confused as to what was the right stand to take on this. Many felt the parents well-intended but I was angry that they were not honest and did not allow us to make a choice. Most parents seemed to be worried about their child's popularity - they didn't want to say anything to the parents who had the party or press charges - the police actually begged some parents to come forward via town newspaper. Perhaps parents today reflect on their own youth and believe it's the same - it really isn't - the drinking games, the loss of parental/adult monitoring or accountability, more sexual freedom, and increased competitiveness (drinking games fall in here), have made for a very different experience than the 70s. Boundaries seem to have been forgotten.</p>
<p>The concept of hazing and initiation concern me a great deal, though, and are problematic for both Greeks and atheletes. Fond memories of initiation rites from the l970s are probably quite different from the memories being generated today. Again, excess and competitiveness seem to be the issue. I think hazing is the biggest negative to frats.</p>
<p>I agree with Interesteddad that some major changes re: sports are required. We only have to look at our professional teams to see the type of mania that surrounds sports now. I am truly thrilled that we have finally lifted the curse here in Boston but I would rather wait 86 more years than see young people damaging buildings and turning over cars. I digress - have a day off and am pontificating too much.</p>
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<blockquote> <p>So do you decide not to let your kid get a driver's license because most fatalities of high school kids happen behind the wheel? Do you keep your spouse from salt because of the risk of hypertension? You stay out of tall buildings because of 9/11?>></p> </blockquote>
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<p>These things were either unpredictable or accidents. Fraternity hazing and drinking is PLANNED. It is planned destruction. Sorry I don't agree with this correlation.</p>