<p>I don't understand many of the points raised in this thread. How the heck is insurance liability related at all to a discussion about the pros and cons of fraternities? I think you will find that most responsible institutions that house college students would carry liablity insurance. Infact, the going rate for college rental units is probably around $150-$200/yr per rental student for liability insurance. Maybe I missed the point.</p>
<p>I also see no correlation at all between sports/athletics and a discussion about the pros and cons of fraternities. The two do not necessarily go hand in hand.</p>
<p>I really wonder why someone like interesteddad is so negative about sports and fraternities. Bad experience? I think it's great that his daughter opted to attend a school that has neither. That type of college environment is just not for everyone. He is lucky that his daughter shares his views and chose a college that doesn't "focus" on sports and frats. At least he won't have to worry about her hooking up with a frat boy who plays sports.</p>
<p>My DD attends at UC campus and would never have considered a sorority. She attended a frat party first term and was unimpressed with the drinking, etc. However, with UC campuses being huge, classes being huge, and not being guaranteed campus housing resulting in a commuter feel, she decided to check out the rush week in order to connect with more potential friends. We warned her to look for nice girls, not plastics....I have known plenty of Sorority officers who became junior leaguers and who fit every plastic exclusive stereotype. My DD would not have been happy in that type of group.</p>
<p>The really nice feature is that the school has, apparently, a promised bid process. If I understood correctly, no one is completely declined, all the groups sort out all the interested kids and every one gets one bid at least. Yes, miss popularity may get more, but all get at least one. So, if you really want to join a group, you can.</p>
<p>I have seen DD be very happy since joining, nice girls, nice activities, involved and interested, not much talk about drinking.</p>
<p>The pros and cons are really going to be campus-specific....is it a new millenium, kinder-gentler frat/sor scence or an old-fashioned, "mean, drunk" one? I am sure there are some really great ones and some lousy ones.</p>
<blockquote>
<p>I think it's great that his daughter opted to attend a school that has neither. </p>
</blockquote>
<br>
<p>Actually, my daughter's school has both varsity athletics and fraternities.</p>
<p>In general, I view the lack of a football team as a negative for a college; however, I understand that a football team at a very small co-ed college probably requires unacceptable compromises in campus culture and admissions.</p>
<p>I viewed the presence of (non-residential) fraternities at my daughter's college as a negative. Although tame by national standards, their function is to serve as the focus of the jock/booze/party crowd on campus.</p>
<p>Well, no one in my family is or has been in a frat. My kids both go to schools where they're not a big presence. My alma mater did have a large frat scene, but a much larger nonfrat scene. No one I knew there was in one. It's not an environment I'd look for.</p>
<p>That being said, I don't understand the contempt here. People we know, like Threeboysmom and sokkermom, have detailed different experiences from the stereotype. Yes, drinking is often connected to frats, though it certainly occurs in copious amounts in nonfrat circumstances. Yes, it's not what I or my kids were looking for. But plainly, it's not the same everywhere. Is it not possible to accept that the stereotype is not always true?</p>
<p>Well I may be one of the few parents on here who actually was in a sorority during my college year. Frats and sororities are not just organizations that exist for drinking , partying and socializing. There are all kinds of individuals that join them - both introverted and extroverted, drinkers and non drinkers , bubbleheads and deep thinkers, and on and on. </p>
<p>My son once made a derogatory comment about sorority girls and I reminded him that I was in a sorority. He said," but you aren't the typical sorority girl." And" I said no I'm not , but that is the point." Very few in my sorority were. </p>
<p>I found the comment about "paying for friends" particularly offensive. Just because you join does not mean you will have friends. It is not a guarantee.
Yes drinking and hazing are a concern and there are fraternities that violate their national chapter rules as well as campus rules. That is where you have to judge the individual fraternity and its members.</p>
<p>To the OP, there was a thread on this topic a few months ago which I think was a little more balanced in its pros and cons. I'm not going to whole heartedly endorse any fraternity or sorority because of the individuality of each one and each campus. My experience was exceptionally positive and I just wanted to offer a view point from a former Greek.</p>
<p>fundingfather wrote
[quote]
The message that I would like to leave with the OP, who does seem inclined to join a frat, is to use the pre-pledge period to really get to know what type of guys are in each frat
[/quote]
</p>
<p>This is really good advice, although for some strange reason much easier for guys than for girls. I'm a guy, but my understanding of "rush" for sororities is that the girls show up a week before class begins and thats the time period they have to get to visit the various houses and make a choice, with their invites to come back reduced each nite. Thats about it as far as visiting goes for sororities. Frats have a rush period, but they also host parties during the year at which anyone is welcome to come. A smart way to decide is not to rush frosh year but instead attend the rush events and the open parties and get to know the guys in the various houses.</p>
<blockquote>
<p>I don't understand many of the points raised in this thread. How the heck is insurance liability related at all to a discussion about the pros and cons of fraternities? </p>
</blockquote>
<br>
<p>Because many of the "cons" have made fraternities such a high risk that they are nearing the point of being uninsurable.</p>
<p>Sokkermon, since you are looking for correlations, why don't you address the SELF REPORTED statistic that 80% of fraternities ARE binge drinkers? </p>
<p>If I were to believe some posters in this thread, the correlation between unlawful, excessive drinking, sexual predatory acts, lewd behavior and fraternities only exist at a few rogue charters. </p>
<p>As far as hazing, how many deaths are really acceptable? Do you consider 100 deaths directly caused by hazing incidents to be a price one could pay for the honor of wearing a pin? Is there any doubt in your mind that forcing 20 students to drink the equivalent of 5 gallons of hard liquor in 30 minutes is not an act of savagery that is totally void of concerns for human beings? For what it is worth, an average adult can metabolize the equivalent of 4 beers or one oz of hard liquor in ONE hour. </p>
<p>Do you accept the behavior of the frat boys who enjoyed the COMMON practice of "decorating" with markers the faces and bodies of students who passed out? I wish YOU could hear the parents of my friend describing the humiliating sight of their son.</p>
<p>At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I will NEVER stop repeating the story of what happened in Boulder, and I will continue to advocate for drastic changes in the behavior of fraternities in the vicinity of colleges. And, no matter how much sugarcoating one wants to add, the "incident" DOES represent what MOST fraternities stand for.</p>
<p>but at the same time, yes they are being "forced" to drink that, but they are NOT forced to be in that situation in the first place. they decide to join that fraternity. people should know when joining a frat if there is hazing and drinking or not. (if not, they probably haven't done their homework on the frat) sure people think, Oh it wont happen to me, but thats just being naive. on that note... how many deaths is driving responsible for? are those deaths the price that we should have for the privledge/honor of having a drivers license? i'm not trying to start an arguement or anything, but once again, this comes back to self responsibility. i know that when i get in my car and drive down the road, i could accidently hit something/someone. and i also know that somebody could accidently hit me. people could die. when you get in the car, and you drive somewhere, you are on a road with many thousand pound killing machines. but you accept that responsibility. you think, oh i'm a great driver i can drive from point a to b and be safe. what about the other drivers on the road? one of them could slip on ice and hit you. therefore (although this isnt realistic), we shouldn't go on roads, to stop accidents/deaths like that from happening. but i don't see that happening. it's the same with fraternities. if you are worried about drinking too much, or worried about death in a fraternity, simply choose not to join the fraternity. if you do join, you know what you are getting yourself into. </p>
<p>like i said i'm not trying to start anything, and as mentioned before, i do feel the fraternity should be held responsible as well, but we can't forget that the individual put him/herself in that situation to begin with.</p>
<p>xiggi, i do understand how you feel on this matter. a few friends of mine were killed two years ago because they were passengers in a car that the driver decided to "race" another car on the highway. because of the actions of those two people, who knew it was wrong, two of my friends are now dead. and i do the same thing that youre doing, i am very anti-racing, very anti-speeding, and i'm not afraid to tell people what i think about it, regardless of how much of a broken record i most likely sound like. but i also acknowledge that my two friends got into the car with that kid, with full knowledge that he has done the racing thing before. By the way, both of the drivers ended up in jail. so i do understand where youre coming from, and i say keep at it, it's definately not going to make things worse. i also would like to say, that you seem to be very set on your viewpoints. no offense, but it seems that everything people have been saying to you goes in one ear and out the other. although i may only be three years or so older than you are, i really think you need to respect what other people have to say on the matter.. even if you do not fully agree. it's called courtesy.</p>
<p>Wow xiggi, as the years go by you grow more and more sheltered in your views - never willing to see things from other viewpoints. You are not nearly as mature as you THINK you are.</p>
<p>I would never try to diminish the significance of the death of your friend. I agree that it was horrible. What I said in a previous post is that I would let my son decide whether or not he chooses to join a fraternity. It is his decision, not mine. He may decide he doesn't want to join on his own. However, at this point in his life, I would hope that if he does decide to join a fraternity, that he would research the organization (including whether or not it has any hazing, etc.) prior to making that decision. I would not want him to base his decision on misinformation and stereotypes, or on an incident totally unrelated. Like you, he has made good decisions in the past. If he joins a fraternity, it would not be for the alcohol consumption. Like you, he doesn't enjoy drinking. </p>
<p>I am glad that you have such strong convictions. I appreciate the fact that your convictions are based on the personal experience of a good friend. However, I am a very firm believer that not all fraternities are equal. I would never want my son (or daughter) to base any decisions in life on misconceptions or heresay. I would want them to be open-minded and informed on each case by case decision. I certainly would want them to fully evaluate all the pros and cons!</p>
<p>All of this sounds like a bunch of reckless kids who would do what they do, frat or no frat. Would there be no parties without these frats? Do these kids suddenly start drinking on the night of their initiation? Do the letters on their shirts suddenly take over their brains in some kind of science fiction mind-control thing? Kids who drink, pass out and get marked would do the same thing without a frat. I am not supportinve of this behavior. But, to blame the establishment for the behavior of it's members (as though the establishment has a power of it's own) sounds like a way for parents to dismiss the behavior of their own drunken kids. Perhaps the frats outlined in Xiggi's comments are just full of idiotic kids....drunken fools....who need to get a life. If you know someone who comes home marked up because they drank way too much and passed out, do you really have a problem with those who marked him up? I would have a problem with the kid who was foolish enough to drink that much. Being marked up is the LEAST of his problems if he drinks to the point of oblivion. Come to the big city, drink that much and pass out....and see what happens. I would be glad to see my son with the marks....as he would have a reminder of how dumb he was and would think twice before acting so foolishly again...AND, he deserves it! </p>
<p>("Is there any doubt in your mind that forcing 20 students to drink the equivalent of 5 gallons of hard liquor in 30 minutes ")</p>
<p>Uh, who is the fool here? Frats will continue to do this dumb stuff until the idiots who pledge advocate for change. The kids who join must want this sort of environment. If they don't know whow to say no to somehting like this, then something is wrong with them - not the frat. When enough pledges drop line and the frats start to lose those they really want, especially the legacies, they'll start to change. </p>
<p>I don't think frats need to be eliminated since I know many who are members and this stuff was never part of the process. Rather, the pledges need to get a grip and drop line if things get crazy.</p>
<p>There's one difference with your contention that these kids would be exhibiting the same behavior even if they weren't in the frat. They probably would be drinking, if they lived in a dorm or an apartment, you're right. However, the circumstances would be entirely different. They wouldn't be pressured to drink a ridiculously dangerous amount of alcohol in a short period of time, at the behest of a group, who they are trying to impress (for whatever crazy reason), or who are in control. Kids on college campuses drink all the time. They do NOT, however, have large groups of upper classmen 'forcing' them or egging them on at these endeavors. And there is the difference. I often wonder what kind of individuals these boys are who think that asking other boys to drink like that is perfectly fine. I wonder how many of the mothers of the boys at xiggi's friend's frat have asked themselves that question in the past three months.</p>
<p>yes college kids drink all the time, but if you voluntarily attempt to join an organization that is known for its hazing and drinking, then you are as much at fault as the organization that does the hazing and drinking. are you really being "forced" to do it when you are there by your own choice? i don't think so.</p>
<p>Here's the problem. Binge drinking occurs on college campuses because it is glorified to the point where impressionable youngsters believe that it is an expected "norm". Campuses where it is not the expected "norm" have less binge drinking. Those where it is is the expected "norm" have more binge drinking.</p>
<p>Since the primary purpose of fraternities is to host "frat parties" (i.e. the ultimate glorification of binge drinking), they contribute to a dangerous expected norm on campus. If alcohol were not so integral to the fraternal experience, why is it part of rush week and initiations? Is anyone trying to suggest that having pledges drink is atypical?</p>
<p>The two frats are my daughter's school are where the binge drinkers go to binge drink. Everyone on campus knows that.</p>
<p>Would there still be binge drinking without frats? Absolutely. Look at Williams College -- a place where a 200 year frat boy tradition didn't die when the college removed the greek letters from the frat houses.</p>
<p>My roommate used to belong to a fraternity and they drank once a semester - fall formal and spring formal. they did ton's of community service, and raised a lot of money with their fundraisers. not all fraternities drink every day.</p>
<blockquote>
<p>I wonder how many of the mothers of the boys at xiggi's friend's frat have asked themselves that question in the past three months.</p>
</blockquote>
<br>
<p>I suspect that the moms have probably rationalized it as an aberration -- the their sons' fraternity is really about brotherhood, leadership, and academics and it's not the fraternity's fault if a freshman made a poor choice.</p>
<p>How are parents supposed to find out about the character of various fraternities? Apparently, the chapters have consistent, well-known personalities to anyone on campus, but you couldn't tell one iota of difference from reading the pablum on the national frat websites. In fact, most of them cut and paste the same "mission statements and goals" developed by the national fraternity intercouncil risk management folk in Indianapolis.</p>
<p>Would the fact that a fraternity has recently been de-certified by the college for alcohol related behavior be an idicator?</p>