<p>Fendergirl and crackah, contrary to what you imply, I do read the other viewpoints and ALWAYS pay attention to the other side. Acknowledging the "other side's" arguments does not equate in having to accept them at face value. As far as the comment regarding maturity, I let our individual posting histories speak for themselves. </p>
<p>In the context of this thread, I took notice of the fact that fraternities and sororities have been created to pursue activities different from partying and drinking. If you READ my posts, you could have seen that I would welcome any entity that pursue lofty goals such a raising money and helping fellow students during and after the college years. My view is rather simple: do what you are supposed to do, and abandon the egregious behavior that comes with the excessive use of liquor. The excessive use of liquor is a problem on almost every campus and fraternities are far from being the sole culprits, but their role as catalysts is nonetheless very apparent. In this role, the frats could be catalysts to do the right thing.</p>
<p>For what its is worth, as anyone my age, I have a high level of tolerance for our common activities. While I have trouble understanding what pushes some of friends to binge drink, it does not bother me a bit to be among partiers. On the other hand, it is not that hard to see how situations deteriorate rapidly when people -especially young- lose control. When tragedy occur, most people express sorrow, regrets, or even guilt. The sad part is that a great number of the tragedies could have been avoided with a little bit of education or precaution. The student in Oklahoma could have survived if his friends knew that putting him in bed was NOT the thing to do. However, how many 18-year old kids know that? It is hard to do the right thing when the adults among us are only 2 to 3 years older! The basic issue is that very few of us have much understanding of how to "use" the absolute freedom we find in college life. </p>
<p>Finding long-term solutions require a correct assessment of our current problems, even if hearing the truth is painful.</p>
<p>i could be mistaken here (as im not a part of a frat nor a sorority), but shouldn't it be the students responsibility to find out about the character of the fraternity that they are interested in joining? i wouldn't call home and say, "Hey mom, do some research on this fraternity for me, and if you think it sounds good based on their website i'll go sign up." i would be talking to people in that frat, talking to other students on campus, finding out exactly what the frat is about. going to the parties, seeing what goes on.. etc.. basically doing my "homework." joining something blindly is just.. irresponsible.. at least in my opinion... and as i said.. this whole thing plays back to being self responsible. i've said it multiple times now.. if you are going to join a frat, you should be the one researching it, being knowledgable of the frat and its behaviors/character. this is the student joining this frat, not the parents. the parents shouldnt have to do the research to find out about the character of the frat. the child should be mature enough, and responsible enough to make an educated decision on the matter. however, sadly enough, many times people make the wrong choices and end up being seriously hurt or injured. is this the fault of the parents? no. is this the fault of the people who gave them the alcohol? yes, they could be giving it to a minor, they know its illegal, they know its bad, they don't know what to do in case of an emergency. is this the fault of the person who joined this organization by choice? yes. they are responsible for PUTTING THEMSELVES in this situation in the first place. they should of done their homework on the matter. I don't think i'm being too illogical here...</p>
<p>Yes, many college students drink - but the survey I discussed looked at BINGE drinking, which is a totally different game than just having a few drinks on a Saturday night. Binge drinking is the beginning of alcoholism for many people. To me, the fact that 74% of fraternity LEADERS reported binge drinking in the past two weeks says a lot about fraternity life. The LEADERS are the ones setting the tone of the fraternity, enforcing the rules,etc. And, the fact that frat members reported binge drinking at TWICE the rate of non-greek members can not be denied. As a parent, I warn my children about the dangers of driving too fast, the dangers of doing drugs, the dangers of going alone into unsafe areas - why wouldn't I warn them of the fact that frats have a self-reported higher level of binge drinking? Yes, it's true that all frats are not the same, but I do not believe that most pledges do any sort of due dillengence to discover the differences....and I seriously DOUBT that most fraternities tell pledges before hand what will be involved with hazing. I would want my children to know up front of the possibilities. </p>
<p>Another thought: I agree with Jamimom's earlier statement that I would be much more favorably impressed with fraternities if they took the initiative to go dry and to promote non-drinking related events, especially hazing.</p>
<p>What a difference they could make, Carolyn! It would truly make a difference. And if they are such social, friendly, comfy places, why do they need the alcohol and hazing? They can then focus on their true purpose. Anyone can get "friendlier" as they dump their inhibitions with drink. </p>
<p>There have been frats who have gone this route but they have not been supported by the entire scene and it really needs to be an all on board endeavor. IT would go a long way in changing the reputation of the frats. Heck, I would want my kids to join one if that was truly the way they operated--I would happily pay the fees. I have seen frats defend their mission listing all of the community service things that they do, but the problem is that if you look at any campus police log, the infractions are generally clustered among the frat houses. Get rid of the drink, and it would really change the picture. I hear a resounding silence for my idea.</p>
<p>"How are parents supposed to find out about the character of various fraternities?"</p>
<p>Idad, I don't think parents are supposed to find out. The same kids who were supposed to select a college, interview, make calls to the admissions office, sit in on classes, schedule time with professors, study for SATs, fill out their apps, write their essays.....these same kids are supposed to know what to do when someone givens them 5 gallons of hard alcohol to drink in 30 minutes. </p>
<p>I really don't see the big deal. It's a choice, like everything else.</p>
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<p>Idad, I don't think parents are supposed to find out. </p>
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<p>Who is supposed to write the check for the frat dues? As I understand it, we are talking signficiant hundreds of dollars a year. Swarthmore's non-residential frat dues are $350 to $500 a year and that is extremely low.</p>
<p>I would think that most parents would want to know what they are writing a check for. </p>
<p>BTW, here's a link for a PhD disseration on a "dry pledge" frat:</p>
<p>I don't think I would be interested in paying for a frat that was involved in some criminal activity, had abuses up the whazoo, was a frequent offender according to campus reports, had a house that was a true fire trap , had kids who were bigots, were on watch by the university and by the national org. Kids sign up for such frats. I doubt they extoll the afore mentioned virtues of the organization when they ask for the check. When you are spending as much money as college costs these days, you are doing so as an investment in your kid. THere is no investment of that size that I would not want to check out, and frat life is such that it can strongly affect one's investment. I would certainly want to know the rep of a frat where my kid would want to join.</p>
<p>Why should the parents write a check for frat dues? I think that if a kid wants to join ANY organization it should be their responsibility to get a job and pay for that dues. Sorry, but that's just how I was raised. i would never even DREAM of asking my parents for a cent of money to help out with an organization that i want to join. Why should my parents give me money for any of these types of activities? I'm an adult. I pay my own bills. I've been working since the day after i turned 14. I've purchased my own computers, clothing, cd's, my cell phone, my car, insurance, etc. My parents help me out with a portion of my tuition, but everything else is on me. If i can't come up with 400 bucks to join an organization - then i'm not joining it. Simple as that.</p>
<p>interesteddad--In some cases, parents do subsidize their kids. In our case, S wrote, and continues to write, the checks for his frat dues, as he did for all his expenses including purchase and monthly payment of his cell phone. My H also was responsible for his living expenses in the fraternity that he joined in college.</p>
<p>"Who is supposed to write the check for the frat dues?"</p>
<p>I've never imagined that I would write a check for frat dues. None of the people I know ever asked their parents for money to pledge. As a matter of fact, many never told their parents until after they went over. Picking up the tab is foreign to me. I also wouldn't encourage it participation in the frat. If he wants to do it, great....he'll find the money. I've never heard of parents paying.</p>
<p>"Do you guys think that frat dues should reduce the amount of need-based aid, dollar for dollar?"</p>
<p>Well, maybe if they can get paid for building the playground they built last spring. Or, if they can keep the money they raise for the scholarship fund, which is a heck of a lot more than the dues. Or, perhaps they could get a kicker for each voter they registered at "Rock the Vote" 2004, which I saw with my own eyes...frat bros lined up registering voters who were lined up down the block (just outside of Penn's bookstore - 2004). Or maybe they can market the "Cards for Kids" campaign and sell the cards instead of making them and delivering then, in person, to schools all over the tri-state area. Yes, in that case, I would agree with reducing aid. Or, perhaps the grad chapter's tutoring program (housed in frat's building up the street form me) can donate the money to help send the pledges through school....less money for the tutored kids, but hey......less conflict for the hard-working frat brothers who can't seem to catch a break on here.</p>
<p>The best way to find out the reputation of a frat or sorority is to hold off rushing until your sophomore year. It gives you time to establish independence and get to know what the personalities of the fraternities are. My son got a pretty clear picture of each fraternity on his campus. He chose not to join one but he has friends that are in them.</p>
<p>Good point Lizscup. Know what you're getting into. I just browsed some of the websites of the frats on Penn's campus. Some had a clear outline of their 2004 activities, accomplishments, pictures of events, etc..You can see what they did in 2004 and prior. Some list the members and their academic accomplishments, ECs, etc. Others have nothing but their chapter's history.....no current event info. If they have no current event info listed, perhaps its a sign that there isn't much going on ('cept drinking).</p>