<p>My family is white but my parents still provided some structure. Looking back, I am very grateful for it. My family did not have cable, we couldn't watch TV after 9, we went to church regularly, did math exercises in the summer, took educational vacation trips, etc. I was expected to succeed in school-not that my parents expected straight As but believed my siblings and I were smart and should do well in advanced classes. While certainly there needs to be a balanced, in my opinion, so many kids spend too many hours watching TV and doing other wasteful activites that do little to develop a kid.</p>
<p>I'm only a junior in high school right now but I am really happy with the way my mother raised me and my sister.</p>
<p>We were always busy and thus, were never really interested in cartoons on television. My mom emphasized education from the very beginning. My grandma tells me stories of walking in to see my mom reading to me or my sister when we were still in the womb, before we were even born! Bedtime stories were a treasured privelege that my sister and I always looked forward to because it was time to spend one-on-one with my mom right before I fell asleep. We were raised with natural consequences and never punished for grades. If we recieved a B or C in class it was our responsibility to learn from our mistake, not my mom's to bribe us to get better grades. </p>
<p>Perhaps, the thing that I am most grateful for about my mom is the way she planned our summers. We were always up and out of the house by 7 for swimming lessons, then ran errands and were back by about 10 to work in our workbooks. The workbooks allowed my mom to help us maintain the skills we learned during the year and teach us new ones. When my sister and I returned to class in the fall, we were always at the top of the class because we had been practicing what we had learned while others played nintendo all summer. We spent the afternoons at museums, parks, sporting events, and experiencing the real world. I will always treasure the memories I have from the summers when I was a young child and try to raise my kids with much the same values as my mom raised me. </p>
<p>I think that the problem with the parenting techniques described in the original article is the extreme emphasis placed on academics. Yes, education is important but one B is not going to kill the student's academic career. I think that sometimes getting a B+ or an A- is more valuable then getting an A because you remember the mistakes that you made and learn that you do not always have to be perfect. Also, academics should not be the only thing important in the child's life. Childhood is a time to learn and explore about the world you live in and not a time to stress about your grade on the latest multiplication test.</p>
<p>Yes, balance is very important. During my teen yrs, we lived in a rural community of 16,000 where my father worked 13 hour days to raise a family of 4 children. My mother never learned to drive and was the traditional homemaker. I was 13 yrs old when we moved away from Los Angeles...and, other than the rare order from a fast food place, we always sat down to a home cooked Chinese meal. Fast forward 6 yrs to UCLA...where I was a junior transfer. How awkward was it to walk down to the dining hall, presented with a quarter section of chicken, and have to use a fork and knife to cut it?! Didn't everyone use chopsticks?! LOL I remember that "moment" well...arrgh! And, not having been to non-Chinese restaurants...I had to "learn" to place my own orders from a menu. In the beginning, I just ordered the same item as one of my friends. Even the simple things can be complicated.</p>
<p>In terms of our own children, we acknowledge that each of them are individuals with their own personalities and interests. They all attended the same child-centered elementary school that promoted an integrated curriculum, taught wonderful lifeskills, and "doing their personal best." H & I have been there done that with our parents, and have encouraged and guided our Ds to explore their interests and find their passions. In the end, it's not about us...it's all about them...and their happiness. It "can" be done without having to constantly barrage them with academic activities.</p>
<p>Sat next to a Chinese mother on a plane ride. She was telling me about her son. Her husband forced him to take piano lessons, which he hated. The mother said that he shouldn't be forced to do something he didn't want to do--he must be given choice. The husband gave him a choice--take piano lessons or be beaten. He chose to be beaten, but asked his father to not beat him hard. They quit the piano lessons.</p>
<p>The father insisted that the son study to become a doctor. Son didn't want to be a doctor. But he agreed to double major--in business and chemistry--by the time he was a senior he had decided that he absolutely did not want to be a doctor and wanted to be an investment banker. Again, the mom stepped in and got the husband to agree that the son should choose what interested him. </p>
<p>The problem with the Asian way--it is not everybody's destiny to be a doctor (or whatever). What if Mozart had been raised in an Asian family? He would have been a doctor and the world would be a poorer place without his music.</p>
<p>I have heard so many tales of Asian parents' pressuring their kids to become doctors, starting with my college roommate. One student I know had a nervous breakdown before he could convince his parents that he really wanted to be a humanities major (he'd excelled at math and science in high school, so naturally, they expected him to be a pre-med).
I once sat next to a Chinese diplomat, who, on hearing that my S liked math, urged me to instantly enrol him in Kumon math. Upon researching what it was, we decided my S would hate doing worksheets. He stuck to recreational math--when he felt like it, not when we said so.
I also know of a young man who upon getting his first B+ in high school apologized to his parents for disappointing them. It was the first inkling they had that their pride in his achievements put so much pressure on him. They had not intended to push him (but he is now a very successful physician :) )</p>
<p>I'm a first-generation American -- my parents focused on education, but did not have the background to help us much with math or science. They both loved to read and encouraged each of us to do so as well. I probably passed along some of the immigrant approach to education to my sons, but more along the lines of "why not try your best and see what happens?" It seems to work for our kids.</p>
<p>The other issue that is not addressed in this topic is internal vs. external motivation. If such a narrowly-focused value system doesn't wind up helping kids find their own reason to pursue a subject of interest, like Marite's son, what's the point? We just watched the Nova special on Einstein's Theory of Relativity, and I can tell you that he wasn't raised in the manner described in the NYT article. Creativity counts, even in science and math.</p>
<p>Finally, this is related to the idea of selective college admissions. Maybe this article explains something about why HYPSDMC look at more than grades and test scores. The kids that impress me are those who can perform well academically while holding down a part-time job, playing in a community orchestra, volunteering on regular basis or play on an athletic team. Balance is what matters.</p>
<p>Creativity, free expression and the ability to drop the dictates and class stratification of "the old world" has been the aspiration and advantage that Americans have over the rest of world. There are exceptions of course, and do not always fulfill the promise we express in the Constitution or the Bill of Rights. But we strive to.</p>
<p>The U.S. educational tradition and values still produce more innovation than Asia, where, foe example, Japanese secondary and college students work themselves into mind-numbing conformity. We should keep our school children's lives in balance, so they don't abandon their own dreams and aspirations, which would be our collective society's loss.</p>
<p>I think the distinction is between encouraging your children to reach their potential vs. taking away their childhood. There is more to life than academics. We all know how unfulfilled most adult workaholics are. I have to believe it's also not healthy to have your kids' whole life revolve around study, grades, and adcom friendly ECs.</p>
<br>
<blockquote> <p>What if Mozart had been raised in an Asian family? <<</p> </blockquote>
<br>
<p>Well, at least in Mozart's case his dad wouldn't have had to beat him to make him take piano lessons.</p>
<p>I really don't believe that the Draconian and belittling way these young women were raised is necessary to result in successful (however this is defined) adults. Heaven forbid, getting a C "shames" an entire family so report cards are reviewed by the whole family as a group?? This may produce competitive, cutthroat adults, but successful? Maybe...if they don't rebel and become failures out of spite. Happy? I doubt it. Good parents themselves? Hardly. Setting themselves up as a template for all American parents to raise their children is presumptuous at best. How compassionate as physicians can these women be? Is there something that can be concluded about their childless status? Asst professors are in their mid to late 30's, yet one is not married and the other has no children. Granted, this is personal choice, but why did they choose this? Most of us non-Asian asst professor medical academics (yes, I am one) are married with kids and trying to show our kids some balance. And I don't presume to tell anyone else how to try to do it or to hold myself up as the poster child for all Americans raising children.</p>
<p>I agree with other posters, that this approach may well be backfiring for some of these Asian kids. The (Asian) valedictorian of my D's high school last year who also had 2400 SAT AND 36 ACT (of course after significant prep) applied to all 8 Ivies...and only got in to Penn. His only EC was math club.</p>
<p>quiltguru, My kid's hs is about 40% Asian. Although there are no perfect scorers on the SAT, many go to school after school, and summer school as well. It really is hard for my non-Asian kids to keep up here and not feel inferior. Many of non-Asian families are thinking about removing their kids from this public school bcs the kids feel inferior and plainly dumb. I know my kids do not want to be in school all summer or have more schooling after 3:00pm. In the summer they are interested in outdoor summer activities, and after school during the year they want to join clubs, enjoy their friends, participate in school ecs. I have noticed that teachers are encouraging the non-Asian families to get their kids tutored in the summer as well as after school. I am beginning to think that this is unfair to the kids as well as to the families. I know a family that has spent 12,000 in tutoring for 2 kids this year (sat tutoring, and tutoring for classes). This family is very likely removing her youngest from this school system. This is a hardship on middle class families. I feel torn between sending my younger son to summer camp and keeping him home to get his summer tutoring in. I should not have to feel torn, and let him go to camp (where he wants to be). I am tired of having to conform to someone else's idea of child rearing b/c my kid needs to keep up w their kids in school.</p>
<p>I wish some actual Asian parents would post. And some actual Asian kids. I work for a company where 99.9999999% of the people are Asian, primarily Chinese ethnicity. I am pretty close to some of my co-workers, and have spent hours discussing parenting practices, as they have younger kids than mine, and they will ask me or I will volunteer what I did when faced with the stuff they are facing now.</p>
<p>My assessment? Like everything else in life, it's way way more complicated than this thread to date. First, not all Asian families are the same. This thread should be named, Parenting Practices of Achievement Obsessed Asian Parents and do They Differ from Parenting Practices of ANY Achievement Obsessed Parents? People who are first generation are different from second generation and from third generation. People from different backgrounds, i.e. part of the diaspora through Indonesia or Hong Kong or Taiwan are different from Mainland families. People from generations prior to the current single child policies in China are very different.</p>
<p>And, like any other parenting style, what appears to be uniform is not. The same expectations of performance, in a family characterized by warmth and by abundant resources, are different from the expectations of performance and the methods of guaranteeing performance in a family damaged by scarcity and fear of hunger.</p>
<p>You have to remember that the Chinese have one of the most advanced civilizations, with a written and artistic tradition that documents a collective national memory, and yet that national memory contains the longest history of near-starvation of any culture in the world other than Africa.</p>
<p>I could go on and on. However. The one thing that I and my colleagues universally agree on is that shame is a bad parenting practice. Shame and lack of warmth are never good. And the people I know who suffered that type of parenting, Asian or WASP or whatever, they are still hurting from their upbringing.</p>
<p>Alumother,
Precisely...H & I have taken a totally different path than the one taken by our immigrant parents...although, by way of China, they did not have much of a choice. On the other hand, we feel fortunate that we do...and our parenting style/choices are 180 degrees different. (Although, to this day, I am in awe that my parents have 4 children who graduated from college...) The questions and guilt can be overwhelming...even about the grandchildren. That's why a traveling distance of 40+ miles between the grandparents and our home is a good thing. H & I try to keep the "baggage" between the 2 of us to deal with...although our oldest did hesitate to tell her grandfather that she had planned to visit a "male" classmate in Vermont this past summer. We convinced her that it was OK...that we, as parents, would shoulder any fallout. So...shame...guilt...it can run deep.</p>
<p>Interesting thread.</p>
<p>I hope you all realize that not all Asian American families are like that.</p>
<p>My husband and I are third generation Chinese American. We live in a rural area with very few Asians. We have always encouraged our children to do well in school, but we have never paid for tutors, special classes etc. After school they do their homework and then they are free to do whatever they want. During the summer they work on the family farm.</p>
<p>Perhaps the most extreme thing I ever did was turn off the TV when they were young. I wanted them to love reading and not be glued to the TV set. So we filled our home with books, and whenever they said they were bored, I told them to go outside and play.</p>
<p>My kids have turned out fine without all the extra stuff. My oldest son is a senior and from what it appears on CC, has competitive stats. The other two boys are doing fine too.</p>
<p>I know it is difficult, as a non-Asian, to understand how "....one daughter's C-minus in biology could cast shame upon them all...." but the Asian culture tends to be group focused and a bit shame based. Please don't flame me for saying that, but that was how I was raised too. I remember as a child....my family was the first Asian family to join this private tennis club in town. My mother told me to not do anything embarrassing, as it would bring shame to the entire Chinese race. That is a pretty heavy weight for a little kid to carry....knowing that the reputation of the entire Chinese race was resting on my back!</p>
<p>Anyway, I realize that my family might not be "typical" of other Asian American families. My favorite quote is "Education is not the filling of a bucket but the lighting of a fire" (William Butler Yeats). </p>
<p>FresnoMom</p>
<p>You don't have to be Asian to have "Asian" parents. As I mentioned before, my parents were immigrants from Europe, and one of my strongest memories pertains to my parents' reaction to a "C" on my middle sister's report card. Lots of comments about shaming the family, and to this day, I think this sister underestimates her intellectual abilities -- she was the last to earn a degree.</p>
<p>I agree with FresnoMom about trying to create a love of learning. This is one step that I didn't feel comfortable letting the schools handle for my kids. We read to them all the time, and there was always a variety of reading materials available. They were both interested in reading, and were good beginning readers before preschool. I did not try to restrict TV, but tried to redirect them when I thought they were spending too much time in front of the screen. But frankly, it was sometimes a much needed break for me to pop in a video -- they were (and are!) intense, high-maintenance kids, and it was a relief to escape their antics, sometimes! I know this makes me a terrible mother, but that's the way it is. Oh, and I also let them eat sweets pretty much as they wanted -- I saw too many kids who couldn't leave candy alone because it was such a special treat. I just wanted them to take it for granted -- and they are both very tall and lean, anyway.</p>
<p>I think that what's being described as typical of Asian families has long been typical of families who voluntarily immigrated to the US and who also migrated from one region of the US to another because of educational opportunities (such as blacks who moved North to avoid the oppression of the South). </p>
<p>I'm African American and grew up hearing family stories of, for instance, my great grandfather who was born a slave, yet went to Howard. I also heard about my great grandmom, who was orphaned at an early age, so didn't get much education. Still, she was an avid reader, took every opportunity that she could to learn about how she could encourage her kids' education (and in her case, that meant that she learned about education by observing the well off white families that she was a domestic for). Three of her four children graduated from college from about 1908-1915. One became a dentist. </p>
<p>My house was filled with books. I was read to from an early age, and my mom taught me to read by the time that I was 4. As virtually the only black kids in our small NY state town, my mom always told us that people would judge "negroes" by us, so we should act appropriately so as not to bring shame upon our race.</p>
<p>The people whom my family admired were intelligent and highly educated. I wasn't brought up to admire movie stars, models or sports stars.</p>
<p>Even after I got my doctorate, my mom still was disappointed that I didn't become a doctor. When I was in my 40s, my mom was trying to get me to go to law school.</p>
<p>There are extreme cases in every ethnic group. The situation of Asians is exacerbated because many are first generation immigrants who know the value of education not only for its inherent merit, but also for its impact in landing a spot in the higher level of society. Immigrants are particularly keen to see their children have a better life and, accordingly, focus on that goal, even if it comes at a social cost. Being pragmatic, it is only natural for Asians -and other immigrants- to focus on what offers the most immediate and visible rewards: individual achievements in arts and academics. While the children may lose on a few things, it is hard to blame the parents for having failed to understand the special place the US reserves for sports and community life in schools. After all, how could Khan, the Laotian, ever "get" Hank's absolute devotion to football, be it Arlen's HS or the beloved Dallas Cowboys. I am quite certain that most of the transplanted Americans would also fail to understand the finer parts of foreign culture in the countries they live in.</p>
<p>We tend to view departures from our "standards" as bad as opposed to be simply different.</p>
<p>I have thought that the emphasis on academic achievement among Asians had several sources. These were consequences of: (1) some culturally based high regard for teachers; (2) an inability to speak English and the less English dependent language of math and science; and (3) group experience that occupations derived from math and science tended to be more merit based rather than old-boy based and so became accessible and desireable to Asians.</p>
<p>Some of these tendencies will diminish with successive generations, but the change may be slow. Tension can arise between generations due to conflict between the forces of assimilation and the native-land influences. I think the assimilation of succeeding generations of Asians has forces working against it that of the immigrant generations and from the non-Asian-Americans who tend to regard Asians as a monolithic entity without regard to the differences between Asian cultures and as perpetual foreigners to mainstream American society (whatever that is).</p>
<p>As a parent, I think that mastery of anything is a consequence of working with it on a piano, in the dojo, in the lab. If the rhythms of math are hard to get, do it slow and simple until it comes more easily. Mastery is not always measured by grades, but I believe that if one has mastery grades are not an issue.</p>
<p>My kids dont agree and I don't understand why not.</p>
<p>"My kids dont agree and I don't understand why not."</p>
<p>LOL. The story of my life!</p>
<p>This sort of thing only happens in first generation families where the parents are immigrants (like moi). I don't think later generations would understand, and be that way with their children. I certainly won't be as harsh as my parents (but harsh nonetheless since I want my children to succeed), since I had some American influence.</p>
<p>I know people who get locked in their rooms for two meals a day to study or people who'd get disowned and kicked out if they did not go to Harvard. I go to a school where the population is 51% Asian.</p>