Raise kids the Asian way

Parents Forum
101

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Per capita, I'd say more Americans are proficient in Japanese than Japanese are in English.

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<p>Are you serious? </p>

<p>What are the relevant population sizes of the two countries? What are the relevant population sizes of the expatriate communities in each country? Who is measuring the language proficiency of each community? </p>

<p>I'd really have to see you "show your work," as a former expatriate American living in east Asia, before I would believe that statement.</p>

102

<p>Again, this is a "per capita" argument. </p>

<p>I have lived in three cities in Japan: Tokyo, Tsukuba, and Karatsu. Out of those three, the most English was of course in Tokyo. There, I would say that about 1/10 of people have at least basic English skills.</p>

<p>But, leaving the big cities for the rest of the country, you find that the number drops A LOT. From there, it's only "Engrish" (pardon the bad term, but it's useful here) that's used. Like, the crappy English you see on shirts and the stupid Japanized words they use for everything (konpyutaa).</p>

<p>Remember, I'm comparing Americans living in Japan to Japanese living in Japan. Not making an expatriate comparison. I'd say that of the Japanese living in the States, more speak English. </p>

<p>But there are very very few foreigners in Japan anyway, and those that do live here, are brought over by the government or firms to teach English in little bubble existences.</p>

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<p>The point is, why can't these people speak English after learning it for 6 or more years? I'm pretty much fluent in Japanese, and I learned it as an adult, and only have 3 years of language classes under my belt.</p>

<p>There is a serious problem here, and even educators have admitted to it. It's only Americans who think that the educational system here is some godlike entity. You should talk to some of the teachers I work with and hear what they think about the educational system.</p>

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<p>How can you prove that you are "pretty much fluent in Japanese"? Are you comparing yourself, who posts a user profile saying that you live in a Japanese-speaking country, with English learners who have never, ever lived in an English-speaking country?</p>

105

<p>
[quote]
How can you prove that you are "pretty much fluent in Japanese"? Are you comparing yourself, who posts a user profile saying that you live in a Japanese-speaking country, with English learners who have never, ever lived in an English-speaking country?

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<p>Well, other than sitting down with you and having a conversation in Japanese, I don't know how. I can mail you some of my papers I've done in Japan, or show you my minor in the language from UCLA, but I dunno... I've never been asked to prove my ability in the language.</p>

<p>The point still stands though. I have only lived in Japan now for a total of about 9 months. I have taken 3 years of classes total. I can read a newspaper if I'm really bored. I can hold a conversation on most topics. I have experience with high school seniors who still can't understand "How is the weather today?"</p>

<p>I mean, I spoke Spanish better by the end of high school (3 years of the language) than most of my students speak English after 6 years. </p>

<p>tokenadult, if you're really interested I can set you up to speak with some of my fellow teachers (the Japanese and foreign ones.) This is something that many people at various levels have addressed as a huge issue in the Japanese educational system.</p>

106

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live in a Japanese-speaking country

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<p>And I just thought you'd see the humor in how this is redundant. :p There's not a whole lot of other countries that speak Japanese.</p>

107

<p>UCLA, you are proficient because you live in Japan. I studied Spanish for seven years in high school and college combined and am no where near fluent. I lived in Italy and after a few months my Italian language skills (at least orally P were superior to my Spanish skills.</p>

108

<p>Several notes/questions</p>

<p>Is the parental/societal emphasis on high academic achievement limited to East Asians or does it also include South Asians (India)?</p>

<p>Does this emphasis exist because closed immigrant communities have accepted it as a community standard and a successful strategy?</p>

<p>Do Asian communities stayed intact longer (two-three generations) than European/Russian ones because assimilaiton is slower? Is this because Asians look different than Euro-Americans and are regarded as foreigners? I note that African Americans lead a very different existence than Euro-Americans.</p>

<p>I have heard that Japan excels at innovation, making existing technology better and the US excels at invention, making new things. That Japan plays the symphony, and the US plays jazz.</p>

<p>The recent empahsis on measuring school performance has lead to standardized tests in lower grades. While teachers used to say they don't teach to the test, more class time appears to be developing the skills the students will need to score well. House values depend on these scores, so teaching to the test will be a reality.</p>

109

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UCLA, you are proficient because you live in Japan. I studied Spanish for seven years in high school and college combined and am no where near fluent. I lived in Italy and after a few months my Italian language skills (at least orally P were superior to my Spanish skills.

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<p>I was still better at Japanese after 3 years than these kids are after 6 years. I don't care how you shake it, these kids are not learning the language.</p>

<p>If the Japanese have acknowledged it, why am I wrong for seeing it as well?</p>

110

<p>I think you should all stop generalizing. I know this thread is about asian students, but it was meant to explain why a lot of asians are very talented in school. It proves that very VERY VERY few people are born smart (exceptions: a child genius, etc.) but people become smart based on how they were raised and what kind of knowledge they accumulate.</p>

111

<p>blythe,</p>

<p>I am generalizing because I have a huge issue with the notion that Asian educational systems are so much better. I can't tell you about every student I teach, because it's too time consuming.</p>

<p>What I can tell you is that most of them suck. They're rude, they ignore the teacher, they sleep in class, they get up and walk out. This is behavior that would never be accepted where I went to school (a public middle school in Los Angeles.)</p>

<p>I don't believe it's some inherent cultural thing per se, but in large part the pioneering immigrant spirit with a small influx of home-country values (I don't discount culture altogether.)</p>

<p>But when people start talking about how Japan is educating their kids so much better than we are, I get a little irked.</p>

112

<p>
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become smart based on how they were raised and what kind of knowledge they accumulate.

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<p>I don't necessarily agree with this either. Lots of people are good at spouting facts, but I wouldn't necessarily consider them smart. It's how you're taught to use that knowledge and in turn conceptualize that matters. </p>

<p>All the useless facts don't mean a thing if you can't use the noggin.</p>

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<p>^^^^^^ exactly! "it's how you're taught to use that knowledge"...
That's what I mean when I say how they were raised. </p>

<p>From everything we have read on this thread, maybe we could say that it isn't the asian students that live in the asian countries that are such great students, but the american kids that grew up in a good town in the US with parents that valued the asian lifestyle. </p>

<p>It has nothing to do with race, ethnicity, religion, etc. It is all about each individual's values, and most asian-americans value a good education.</p>

114

<p>UCLAri,</p>

<p>Chances are that your profiency in Japanese is due to the fact that you have been immersed in the language. All those Asian students with their English classes are trying to learn a language through textbooks, lectures, etc., I presume. I doubt that when they leave the classroom, they converse to each other in English. BTW, I live in Vancouver where there are large influxes of Asian students who come for the purposes of learning English. They catch on quickly, and surprise, they understand concepts of "I". Their main problem lies in the fact that they're cliquey, but that's another story altogether.</p>

<p>I never said that Asian countries had the best education systems. I said that I'm tired of Americans using the "creativity" excuse whenever countries from all over the world outperform them in high school academics. It's a falsely reassuring excuse to not reform the flawed American education system. You tout the number of Nobel Prize winners as justification of the current American system. What about the extremely high incarceration rates? The crime rate? I thought the point of education was to give everybody an equal chance at a stable life. For every Nobel Prize winner, there are thousands of underprivileged kids who are not being taught to read properly, or solve math problems.</p>

<p>Is the Asian educational system ideal? Of course not. For the properly motivated student, the American one is, IMHO, better, because of the lack of pressure and cutthroat competition. However, this discussions isn't even about American vs. Asian educational systems, it's about Asian students in America. So let's get back to that.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Per capita, I'd say more Americans are proficient in Japanese than Japanese are in English. This is particularly distressing when you consider the fact that English is mandatory from middle school (and sometimes in elementary school.) That means that they're taught English for almost 6 years, and most can't form basic sentences by the end of high school.</p>

<p>Hell, look at how many Europeans can learn 4 languages like it's a weekend hobby. Granted, they're all fairly similar...but still. 6 years and they can't talk? It's sad.

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<p>I seriously doubt that more Anglophones are proficient in Japanese than Japanese-speakers are proficient in English. I've been told that it's pointless for English-speakers to try and learn Japanese (one of the most difficult languages in the world) because the Japanese will speak better English than you can hope to speak Japanese. </p>

<p>Don't compare the transition from Japanese-English with European languages. Italian, Spanish, and French seem to the most common multilanguage packages, and they're all Romance languages. If you know one, it's not that hard to pick the other one up. Try and find kids who can learn Finnish and Greek, or something odd like that.</p>

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<p>First off:</p>

<p>
[quote]
Chances are that your profiency in Japanese is due to the fact that you have been immersed in the language. All those Asian students with their English classes are trying to learn a language through textbooks, lectures, etc., I presume. I doubt that when they leave the classroom, they converse to each other in English. BTW, I live in Vancouver where there are large influxes of Asian students who come for the purposes of learning English. They catch on quickly, and surprise, they understand concepts of "I". Their main problem lies in the fact that they're cliquey, but that's another story altogether.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Right, but again, immersion. It doesn't change the fact that the Japanese themselves have admitted that they have huge failures in language education. That's all I'm saying. </p>

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[quote]
I seriously doubt that more Anglophones are proficient in Japanese than Japanese-speakers are proficient in English. I've been told that it's pointless for English-speakers to try and learn Japanese (one of the most difficult languages in the world) because the Japanese will speak better English than you can hope to speak Japanese.

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<p>I said "per capita." That means, equally to the same number of population (i.e. out of 100) I think that more Americans are proficient in Japanese than native Japanese are proficient in English. Nobody believes me in this, but you really need to come and live here to believe it. Japan is known for being one of the most unilingual countries in the world. Why is this so shocking, or even require argumentation?</p>

<p>This all started because I just told alumother she was dead wrong. Jeebus guys, I'm sorry. I'll never criticize Asian education again. :p</p>

<p>I'm not even saying that Asians in the US aren't doing well. I think they're a great example to follow. But notice how well Asians are doing in the AMERICAN educational system. It's not the American educational system that's to blame, it's the people that aren't taking advantage of it. </p>

<p>
[quote]
What about the extremely high incarceration rates? The crime rate? I thought the point of education was to give everybody an equal chance at a stable life. For every Nobel Prize winner, there are thousands of underprivileged kids who are not being taught to read properly, or solve math problems.

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<p>This is most likely a red herring. I grew up poor, and I'm not in jail. I'd say that the issues of crime in the US stem from something far less connected to education than you let on. Why are poor Asians able to succeed?</p>

<p>I'm going to make myself a social pariah here, but what distinguishes most successful "rise from the bottom" Asians from other minority groups and whites who languish at the bottom? Could it be the strong focus on family and education?</p>

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<p>hell yes!!! the asian method for raising children is awesome, but it does lead to unbalanced children.... my parents raised me with a slightly less strict way, but definately with the same results oriented goals.etc... i was doing times tables each morning before school in like 1st grade, so I was always being taught stuff from my parents</p>

<p>I think this is the way to go, but I would definately increase social interaction and let the kids meet other kids</p>

117

<p>I'm an asian dude. Ok now...</p>

<p>If you think about it, what is 18 years of pain and suffering compared to 50 years of happiness that you will experience when you graduate from Harvard, get an Investment banking job and makes millions of dollar? And, this is the asian way of thinking. </p>

<p>The typical American view is that ...work hard now and play later, but when you have a asian dude who works hard now and works even harder later.... how can you compete with them? That's why I think American education is suffering and soon to be eclipsed by Asian people... and asian people will rule the world one day ... and the world will be some competitive that we will end destroying each other... Oh well.. I guess that's life.</p>

<p>Anyway, the point I was making is that Asian parents have the right to do whatever they want to with you... they gave you life, they can damn take over it if they want to.....</p>

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<p>
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If you think about it, what is 18 years of pain and suffering compared to 50 years of happiness that you will experience when you graduate from Harvard, get an Investment banking job and makes millions of dollar? And, this is the asian way of thinking.

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<p>What happens if this pipe dream does not come to fruition? Will the plan "b" be good enough?</p>

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<p>NYT readers' letters about the original article/book:
(<a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/23/fashion/sundaystyles/23LETTERS.html?pagewanted=all%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/23/fashion/sundaystyles/23LETTERS.html?pagewanted=all&lt;/a&gt;)&lt;/p>

<p>Unrealistic Stereotypes</p>

<p>To the Editor:</p>

<p>Re "Item: Sisters Think Parents Did O.K." (Oct. 9):</p>

<p>The Kim sisters believe that strict households and associating failure with family dishonor is the best way to raise a successful child. Taking this position, they do a disservice to the Asian community by perpetuating the model minority myth that all Asians are successful and over-achievers. The results reported provide an image of success that is only skin deep. </p>

<p>By stressing the model minority myth, we are placing undue academic, social and emotional burdens on youth and further supporting unrealistic stereotypes. </p>

<p>RUCHIKA BAJAJ
New York</p>

<p>The writer is the mental health policy and program coordinator of the Coalition for Asian American Children and Families.</p>

<p>Success and Happiness</p>

<p>To the Editor: </p>

<p>I agree wholeheartedly with the Kims' views about America's overindulgence of its children and the need for American parents to limit popular culture and push their children much harder to achieve success. But the emphasis on the Asian approach advocated by the Kims may be equally harmful to children. </p>

<p>In my psychology practice I see children of Asian descent who are very high achievers yet profoundly unhappy, perfectionists who are driven to succeed yet have a profound fear of failure. </p>

<p>What most American and Asian parents don't realize is that it's possible to raise children who are both successful and happy. </p>

<p>JIM TAYLOR
San Francisco
The writer is the author of "Positive Pushing: How to Raise a Successful and Happy Child" (Hyperion, 2003).</p>

<p>The Down Side</p>

<p>To the Editor:</p>

<p>By publishing "Top of the Class: How Asian Parents Raise High Achievers - and How You Can Too," Dr. Soo Kim Abboud and Jane Kim and Berkley Books exploitatively and dangerously propagate the stereotype that behind the Asian mystique lies secrets of successful child rearing. </p>

<p>The childless Kim sisters, both of whom profess no experience in child development other than being born Asian, ignore many facts, like high dropout rates (in many Southeast Asian communities), high crime rates and parents who work 12-to-16-hour days and are unable to see their children. They also ignore the unusually high suicide rates among Asian-Pacific Americans between the ages of 15 and 24. </p>

<p>Perhaps the Kims could offer advice to these populations. Good parenthood skills transcend ethnicity. And good books should transcend stereotyping. </p>

<p>KEN YU
Forest Hills, Queens</p>

<p>Not Open to Negotiation</p>

<p>To the Editor:</p>

<p>In your profile of Dr. Soo Kim Abboud and Jane Kim, Dr. Abboud complains that "Too many parents now are into positive reinforcement for everything," yet her own parents used candy bars as bribes to get the sisters to read library books. Children from all cultures are better off learning early that reading books, getting good grades and making one's bed are not open to negotiation and will never involve rate cards or special rewards. </p>

<p>CHRISTEL HYDEN
Brooklyn</p>

<p>Dividing Minorities</p>

<p>To the Editor:</p>

<p>Just when I thought Asian-Americans were breaking out of the model-minority box, a book arrives to put us back in our pigeonhole. The sinister aspect of the article and a book about Asian success is that they send a clear message to other minorities who haven't made it: If Asian-Americans can succeed through hard work and sacrifice, why can't you? </p>

<p>Pitting Asian-Americans against other minorities is an old tactic, and perhaps the authors of the book and article need a refresher course in Ethnic Studies 101. </p>

<p>SUN KIM
San Francisco</p>

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<p>Wow, they usually print at least one dissenting opinion. I guess they didn't get any letters supporting the Kim sisters' childraising methods.</p>