<p>A recent letter from a friend in China described a nursery school there.
Three/four-year-olds had a rigid schedule for up to 11 hours a day while their parents worked. There was very little if any "free play time." Kids were shamed in front of the class (30 kids) for coloring outside the lines during "art." Bullying of "oddball" students was permitted/ignored. Kids were hit with sticks for giving wrong answers during math time or story time. (An American family was thinking of enrolling their child so the child could learn Chinese. However, after seeing all of this--and this was observed by the parents on an official visit, not by hidden camera--they decided against enrolling their child). This is NURSERY school, and the goal seems to be to train children to work, conform, and achieve. Just one observation. I think Americans value creativity and individuality more.</p>
<p>That's just idiotic. I know I'll get someone who'll accuse me of being ethnocentric, but I can't legitimize that in any way. It serves no function other than to create docile, capable workers for the state.</p>
<p>I sincerely doubt any of those kids will have a creative bone left in their body by middle school.</p>
<p>My kids go to a top public school with a very high Asian population, and though the pressure some Asian parents put on the kid is kept secret from the non-asian kids, one day my son got ahold of an email the Asian kids were circulating among themselves - it went something like this...</p>
<p>Asian Parents Grading interpretation:</p>
<p>A = Acceptable
B = Bad
C = See you out the door and don't come back
D = Dead</p>
<p>(F was a curse word)</p>
<p>my dad is a little like that. if i got anything below a C then he would cuss at me then i'd cuss back then i would go do something outside and when i got back everything was about chill with him.
i am the laid back guy who goes surfing when i should be studying. i'll have to sneak out by the back door so my dad wont see me. my dad says my weakness is that i am too laid back... ISNT that GOOD???? in a way. i have no stress and i am liking my life style. i dont know. next year i am out of here. btw my dad's not letting me apply to ucsb cuz its too much of a party/laid back/surfer school. how ridiculous is that???? whereever i go, i will study hard, but i am going to keep my relaxed personality when i need it.</p>
<p>The_Who,</p>
<p>If you are getting good grades, you may have a point. However, if surfing instead of studying is making you an underachiever, then your dad is doing the right thing (parents can be right sometimes ;)). None of the parents here are saying to place recreation above education. Balance is the key. My dad used to say "work now, play later". I know many of my peers whose goals and dreams were shattered because they partied too much their freshman year of college. It's better to work a little now to keep your options open.</p>
<p>Tute, stop patting yourself on the back for a moment and take the time to notice that most of the comments stated herein were not about belittling Asian immigrant culture. Folks simply shared observations that some kids suffer from the rigid expectations of their parents.</p>
<p>One thing that's not quite true as the authors Kims claim in their book (after all they want to sell lots of books) is:
one doesn't need exceptional abilities to "succeed like the Asians do".</p>
<p>People do come in quite a range of talents and abilities.
Hard work can make a difference in many cases.
However there is still often a gap between the top achieving vs. the "average good students".
This is especially so in many fields which are either proven/known to be very rigorous e.g. physical sciences/pure math/fields of medical specialties,
or for creative/sports fields where "talent" is often much more intangible than can be "taught" or perfected through practice alone.</p>
<p>The claim by Kims (& others like them) can be very misleading for may families, causing all kinds of stress & pressures.
Most athletic coaches, private teachers for music and art, are fond of saying the same; even though they know perfectly well that very few are truly talented enough (& in terms of comination of other factors such as physique, training, injuries) to achieve the upper level.</p>
<p>I am not patting myself on the back. I am only trying to make the case that you can have well rounded, achieving kids without being a monster parent like the ones described in the post on Chinese nursery school. What I see in my town is that it is acceptable to spend a lot of money and effort pushing kids to excel in sports-but not in academics. Too high expectation in sports is just as destructive. You don't read about parents killing each other or hazing at Quiz Bowl meets.</p>
<p>My opinion, as an Asian student from the burbs.</p>
<p>Most Asian kids have experienced this pressure from parents to succeed in school, well, in anything in general. But it simply can't push someone through 12 years of schooling. By the time you hit freshman or sophomore year of high school to still be a high-achiever you have to internalize some of the motivation. I'm a senior now and all the top asian students who are applying to HYPMS are self motivated and have had parental pressure fade into the background. Other Asian students who are applying to second tier schools have worked out an equilibrium with their parents by now and expectations aren't unrealistically high. For most of us, our parents just want us to succeed at whatever we choose to do. If that happens to be athletics, or music, or academics, or whatever then there will be pressure to succeed to the highest level in that.
Personally, by now my parents know that I can take care of the academics and they try to push me to be as well rounded as I can, by running mostly.. I've never felt any restriction on my social life other than my own which mandates that it be limited when I'm on deadline to get things done.
For the younger kids there is an intense pressure to be involved, but by the time the kids hit high school its up to each individual to succeed on their own.
Parental pressure only goes so far and can only succeed so far. In the end to be truly high-achieving the kids have to go and motivate themselves.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I think Americans value creativity and individuality more.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Individuality? Yes. Creativity? No, just take a glance at Hollywood. </p>
<p>I'm tired of the "creativity" crutch that some Americans lean on whenever their high school students are outperformed by Asians, Europeans, Canadians, etc. I seriously doubt that the average American high school is concerned with fostering the next great artistic minds. Art 12 is probably macaroni portraits with glitter on them. Just because you can't read or do math doesn't automatically make you more "creative", you're just uneducated.</p>
<p>On another note, something that disturbs me is that almost every Korean guy I know wants to be an engineer, regardless of their proficiency in math. To be blunt, do we really need more Asian engineers?</p>
<p>nbachris,</p>
<p>You use an awful example, because that simply shows the level of creativity coming out of a corporate machine. No country has managed to avoid the standardization of the corporate machine, not even our beloved Asian countries. If you want to really get into creativity, talk about where a majority of the current artistic and musical movements have come from (the US.) Talk about the Hudson River School (Thomas Cole), talk about Andy Warhol, talk about the rise of jazz, hip-hop, and rap. </p>
<p>Hell, talk about how the majority of Nobel Prize winners are STILL Americans.</p>
<p>In any case, I think that it's hard to separate the US and Europe because they feed off of each other. Most 20th Century artistic movements in the West were symbiotic relationships between the US and its European brethren anyway. </p>
<p>The fact still remains that I doubt 90% of you have any idea what education is actually like in the so-called super-awesome-smartypants Asian countries. On the other hand, I can tell you how education is in Japan.</p>
<p>In a word, it sucks. This is not just my opinion, either. This is the opinion of the majority of non-Japanese teachers (American, Canadian, British, Kiwis, Aussies, etc.) I have third year students who still can't conceptualize the basic meaning of "I" in English, and I've had other students give me a blank stare on simple Japanese grammar points. Great, so they can solve long word problems and tell you which train will arrive in Akihabara first. I don't care. These kids can't think critically, and it's a product of that "cram information, forget conceptualization" attitude they have here.</p>
<p>UCLA, many past great art movements have come from Europe, not the US. Granted, today NYC is certainly a cultural center, but that has been more of a recent phenomenon and I don't think NYC is representative of American culture. Regardless, most American kids spend most free time watching TV or playing video games, neither of which fosters creativity.</p>
<p>PHampson,</p>
<p>Believe me, I'm well aware of the fact that many past great art movements have come out of Europe.</p>
<p>But you hit it on the nose without meaning to. We Americans tend to look at London, Paris, Berlin, etc. and say, "Boy, those Europeans, they sure are great." But, we get it all wrong. The average farmboy Brit is just as backward as the average farmboy Yank. It's not like the average Brit is some Rhodes Scholar literati.</p>
<p>I've met boorish Brits, boorish Japanese, boorish Koreans, etc.</p>
<p>And you think Japanese kids and Korean kids don't spend their free time playing video games or watching TV? C'mon, Koreans INVENTED competitive Starcraft.</p>
<p>UCLA, in my personal experience, it appears Americans watch more TV. I lived in Europe for a while, in Italy, and most Italians have one TV that is small by American standards. I am not saying people can't watch TV, but most Americans kids hardly use unsupervised time in ways that foster creativity-most watch TV or participate in other passive activities. There is a big difference betweeing inventing a video game and playing it.</p>
<p>
[quote]
talk about how the majority of Nobel Prize winners are STILL Americans.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>The majority of Nobel Prize winners, regardless of their citizenship at the time they receive their prizes, are persons who received their primary and secondary educations outside the United States. There are some interesting Web sites about the attitudes of Nobel Prize winners toward school in general. </p>
<p>BTW, how many Americans who live in Japan succeed in becoming really proficient in Japanese?</p>
<p>
[quote]
but most Americans kids hardly use unsupervised time in ways that foster creativity-most watch TV or participate in other passive activities. There is a big difference betweeing inventing a video game and playing it.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Again, let's try to focus on the uber-Asians here. Japanese kids and Korean kids spend quite a bit of time gaming. I mean, like I said, just look at MMORPGs or games like Starcraft in Korea, and you know that they're pretty into these things.</p>
<p>Europeans are a different case altogether. However, I'd also say that part of what drives Italians to not own TVs is lower disposable income.</p>
<p>It is plainly and simply no longer true that the West is creative and Asia is full of people who have been drilled in school, act in unison, and respond well to authority. Go to Shanghai.</p>
<p>If we continue to believe this is our advantage we will be caught sadly unawares. And the video game factoid is correct. Some of what is now most dynamic in entertainment and in art is beginning to emerge from Asia -when it doesn't come from Latino or African-American US talent of course.</p>
<p>Go East young man/woman. Go East.</p>
<p>
[quote]
The majority of Nobel Prize winners, regardless of their citizenship at the time they receive their prizes, are persons who received their primary and secondary educations outside the United States. There are some interesting Web sites about the attitudes of Nobel Prize winners toward school in general.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Interestingly though, most are still Westerners. How many Japanese Nobelists are there? Very few, considering the so-called strengths of their educational system. </p>
<p>
[quote]
BTW, how many Americans who live in Japan succeed in becoming really proficient in Japanese?
[/quote]
Per capita, I'd say more Americans are proficient in Japanese than Japanese are in English. This is particularly distressing when you consider the fact that English is mandatory from middle school (and sometimes in elementary school.) That means that they're taught English for almost 6 years, and most can't form basic sentences by the end of high school.</p>
<p>Hell, look at how many Europeans can learn 4 languages like it's a weekend hobby. Granted, they're all fairly similar...but still. 6 years and they can't talk? It's sad.</p>
<p>
[quote]
It is plainly and simply no longer true that the West is creative and Asia is full of people who have been drilled in school, act in unison, and respond well to authority. Go to Shanghai.</p>
<p>If we continue to believe this is our advantage we will be caught sadly unawares. And the video game factoid is correct. Some of what is now most dynamic in entertainment and in art is beginning to emerge from Asia -when it doesn't come from Latino or African-American US talent of course.</p>
<p>Go East young man/woman. Go East.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Alummother,</p>
<p>Shanghai is an oasis in a desert. </p>
<p>And what's funny though, is that the most popular computer games are all mostly still American made (Blizzard, EA, etc.) It's only in consoles that the Japanese are competitive. And it's not "Asia" with videogames, it's Japan. There are very few videogame firms of note outside of the US and Japan. UbiSoft comes to mind as one. </p>
<p>
[quote]
It is plainly and simply no longer true that the West is creative and Asia is full of people who have been drilled in school, act in unison, and respond well to authority.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Trust me, in Japan, it's very very very true. These kids are drilled to death.</p>
<p>Okay, I'll give you an example:</p>
<p>I write the letter q with a hook at the end. I've been told by teachers that this is "dame" (not allowed) because the kids all have to write the letters the same. They freaked out because I put a curve in my 2s. They get marked down for writing creative sentences as answers. They all answer questions the same bland way, because that's what's on the test. </p>
<p>This isn't drilling?</p>