<p>Look I wanted to add that a school that dosnt fill out a CDS proves nothing.
look at other top 50 schools that rank similar to UM, examples, UF, BU, Syracuse, Maryland, Pepperdine, GWU, UT Austin and they all have similar stats. </p>
<p>Stats often correlate with the rankings. as rankings improve, so do the stats as more applicants apply with better stats.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Ok so I have noticed few ppl have been talking facts, rather most have been talking opinions and generalizations. So i took the liberty to investigate for myself and got facts about each of the 3 schools most often mentioned here. FAU GUY sorry FAU isnt in but nice try adding it as the top 3 in Florida
[/quote]
</p>
<p>That's not what I was demonstrating. Read it again.</p>
<p>What I was doing was comparing the endowments at three schools. These three schools were chosen somewhat at random. I included my own as the third for obvious reasons (I'll spell it out for you: I go there) but it was otherwise an arbitrary selection. I could have written UCF or FIU or FGCU there instead of FAU with the same conclusion. </p>
<p>The point was that endowment affects ranking. Ranking affects people's perception of a school's academic quality.</p>
<p>But it's pointless to say any of this because from the very beginning you meant this to be a ****ing contest. I'm not interested. But I was interested in leaving my serious observation for other serious posters who might happen upon this thread.</p>
<p>The CDS is meant to be a standard reference between universities. State universities place them for all to review - each and every year.</p>
<p>This is one thing I just do not trust about numbers from private universities. Private universities fail without students enrolling and paying the bills.</p>
<p>Frankly, it's a stretch saying UM is a better university than FSU except for narrow, apples-to-apples, specific program comparisons. Then, FSU has more and better rated programs than UM, except mostly for the med school. </p>
<p>For example, UM has a total student enrollment of maybe 15,000 students. FSU's FRESHMAN class in 2006-7 was some 6177, nearly HALF of UM's total population. The top 25% (~1514 students) of that class has stats as good or better (because UM's numbers apparently cannot be verified) than UM's freshman class as the FSU ENROLLED class presents with an average SAT of 1332 an average ACT of 30 and an average GPA of 4.23. (See: <a href="http://www.fsu.edu/highlights/students.html%5B/url%5D">http://www.fsu.edu/highlights/students.html</a> )</p>
<p>If you want to give me UMiami's stats, please ensure they represent the ENROLLED class for this same period.</p>
<p>Well first of all FSU has something totally different fro the enrolled class at FSU.
Here are the stats of the Enrolled class at FSU 2006-2007:
SAT CR: 530-620
SAT MATH: 540-630
Average gpa: 3.62
<a href="http://www.ir.fsu.edu/Common_Data_Set/2006-07/C.html%5B/url%5D">http://www.ir.fsu.edu/Common_Data_Set/2006-07/C.html</a>
Make sure u look at the part that says FRESHMAN PROFILE. it specifically says the enrolled class. </p>
<p>ParentNoles the numbers u gave were not the FSU class, they were the top quartile of the students. U cant compare those to UM's averages because they represent something totally different. ur comparing 25% of a class to the whole admitted class of UM. </p>
<p>The averages of the class as a whole, if u study them carefully are very similar to the stats of admitted students. off course its generally a little lower but nothing surprisingly different.
Study other CDS's and you will see the numbers will normally not be totally different. </p>
<p>I cannot find the enrolled student's stats for UM, but as I previously said, the admitted student profile is not much different than those that actually enroll.
UM has waay higher stats for those admitted than FSU (just look at the SAT ranges). study other schools that post enrolled stats and they are not much different. Its not like UM takes a 60% drop in quality of stats from admitted to enrolled.</p>
<p>The point is that FSU is much, much larger. Secondly, the top 25% of FSU's enrolled freshmen compare very favorably with (in quantity or quality) or are superior to UMiami's entire freshman class. Lastly, the UMiami stats are questionable. If they weren't suspicious, they'd be published everywhere.</p>
<p>Admitted stats are almost always higher than enrolled stats. Unless you can find similar enrolled stats for UMiami freshmen from this period the comparison is not accurate.</p>
<p>A multi-billion dollar state university like FSU simply is much more comprehensive than a far smaller private school like UMiami.</p>
<ol>
<li>Larger dosnt always=better. </li>
<li>exactly, "the top 25% of FSU's class is comparable to UMiami ENTIRE freshman class" but the whole FSU class is not even close to UMiami entire class.I agree with you, admitted stats are always higher than enrolled stats. Look at FSU's admitted stats to enrolled stats. they are lower than those of the admitted class. now to begin with UM's admitted class stats are way higher than those of FSU so wouldnt it be just as logical that the enrolled class would have higher stats than those at FSU? I mean the enrolled students come out of a admitted class whose range in stats are much higher than the range in stats of FSU's admitted class.</li>
<li>Just because they dont publish anything on a CDS means nothing. they do make their stats public. you can search US News, Businessweek, Princeton Review, Fisk, college board. all these sources release surveys to schools and UM willingly releases them. I dont see how they are "suspicious" considering they do release stats to many sources. </li>
<li>"A multi-billion dollar state university like FSU is simple much more comprehensive than a far smaller private school like UM."
Funny statement cuz UM has a larger endowment than FSU:
several endowment sources:</li>
<li>according to wikipeda:
FSU: 500 million UM: 700 Million</li>
<li>according to US NEws:
FSU: 300 Million UM: 500 Million</li>
<li>According to NACUBO:
FSU: 500 million UM: 600 Million</li>
</ol>
<p>Again small private schools dosnt mean worst. Look at UM for example, higher endowments than the "Much, Much larger" school, smaller faculty-student ratio, higher freshman stats, and finally ranked higher by over 50 spots in US NEWS. </p>
<p>Just curious why has FSU's ranking plummeted lately? They used to be top 50 3 years ago.</p>
<p>Having an annual CDS report is essential to credibility. Why doesn't UMiami issue one if it's no problem? Those other sources could easily garner the data they need from a CDS. </p>
<p>Endowment has a lot to do with wealthy alumni and there's no doubt UMiami has a lot of wealthy alumni. Much of that comes from having a mature medical school, which both UF and UM have. FSU Med is quite new, having started only a few years ago. FSU, as a state university, cannot be so discriminating in freshman enrollment, but it will shortly cut the numbers it admits. By the way the NACUBO numbers are the most accurate as to endowment.</p>
<p>You really cannot say what the UMiami numbers are without a CDS. As you have discovered, the FTIC data can be massaged into favorable outcomes. No CDS means little credibility.</p>
<p>As to FSU's overall US News ranking going from 64 (2002?) to 110 (2007) I think this has several causes, not the least of which was the hiring of a non-academic president in 2003 - a political reason, for the most part. I also believe it has to do with a greater emphasis on STEM than in the past by US News, but these are guesses.</p>
<p>Please note than UMiami's med school would be substantially weaker were it not for Jackson Memorial being state supported. Let's see where that goes when the state FIU med school emerges as a competitor for taxpayer dollars in south Florida.</p>
<p>Finally, let us note that UMiami is what it is - a fairly small decent private university, albeit with a good med school that has state support. It is really no competition whatsoever with the huge by comparison flagship schools of UF and FSU. The overall rankings in graduate studies illustrate this, as do various undergraduate rankings. UM survives on the students it attracts year to year so it has a very strong motivation to pump up it's ratings whatever way works. This is why it does not issue Common Data Sets.</p>
<ul>
<li>Those other sources, release their surveys, hence its what US News publishes every year. having a CDS does not give credability. everything you see on a CDS is available on the school's website and on other sources. I doubt US News, Princeton Review, and other sources are unreliable. </li>
<li><p>"you cannot really say what numbers are without a CDS"
A CDS is not the word of god. the one who publishes the results is the university themselves. the same information you see on a website is displayed on the CDS so there really is no difference. the UMiami stats are on their website (and its very complete) moreover US News hands out the surveys every year to schools and UMiami fills them out. I do not see how that is different from a CDS. Just because a CDS isnt published by a school dosnt mean they are liars. Not all schools publish CDS. They use other methods and surveys just as reliable. </p></li>
<li><p>Endowment has a lot to do with wealthy allumni but not only that. Other state schools have high endowments as well and they are not fullw ith wealthy allumni. look at Ohio State, UF, Indiana, Purdue and other schools.
and also not all endowments are directed towards the medical school. the rescent 1.2 billion dollar endowment UM has accrued came from all the schools/colleges not just medical school. Also not all endowments come from "wealthy allumni." major corporations, law firms and other private firms plus the government give grants.
Endowments, regardless measure how good the school is because that money is directed towards research, construction, better faculty etc.. The reason FSU is not as highly endowed as UM is not because of it supposedly has a "poor" poor student body because FSU has successfull allumni. FSU also has assistance from the state which helps as well.</p></li>
</ul>
<p>-"You really cannot sy what the UM numbers are without a CDS"
off course you can. They are published on their website and other sources such as US News, Princeton Review, Businessweek and many others. place them. If they would think they are not credible they wouldnt cite them. </p>
<ul>
<li>UMiami is not a "fairly small" private university!! research what ur saying. its one of the Largest private universities in terms of enrollment. it enrolls close 20,000 undergrads. 200,000 allumni worldwide. thats not "fairly small" when compared to private schools. It has nationally ranked schools of education, law, business, engineering (not strong though), medecine, architecture, marine science and other schools I cannot remember. I would not consider UM small in any way. it definately is one of the largest private schools in the Nation and the largest in the SouthEast, only rival being Emory in terms of size but supposedly UM is larger. </li>
</ul>
<p>-it is no competition whatsoever with FSU and UF: OFF COURSE IT IS!
why wouldnt it:
- higher endowment
- higher ranking
- Just as many professional school/programs
- has the lowest acceptance rate in Florida and def more selective than FSU.
- attracts students from all over the world.
- has excellent programs in sports just as FSU and UF does.</p>
<p>Lets put FSU what it is:
- larger in terms of enrollment than UM. DUH!
- ranked worst than UM by a lot!
- is less selective. the admit stats and acceptance rate prove it
- Least endowed school out of the major state rival UF and the private university UM (according to u 20,000 undergrads is small).
- Finally: FSU spends less on research funding than UM by 100,000 dollars.
this according to the National Science Foundation report of 2004.
<a href="http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/nsf07318/tables/tab27.xls%5B/url%5D">http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/nsf07318/tables/tab27.xls</a></p>
<p>You forgot music...</p>
<p>I also wanted to add:
Class rank might be important as well in determing the competetiveness of a class:
here are stats for the three best Florida schools:
- FSU: 29% were in the top 10% of class.
- UM: 67% were in top 10% of class.
- UF: dosnt say...</p>
<p>This comes from collegeboard. which I learned is the provider of the CDS surveys.</p>
<p>Miami is also very strong in communications and sport administration.</p>
<p>acarta...for reference...UF is at or above 85% in the top 10% (enrolled...not admitted).</p>
<p>The Common Data Set is important and UMiami is less credible as a university for failing to get that data out every year.</p>
<p>Stanford University says this about the CDS:</p>
<p>**"The Common Data Set Initiative is a collaborative effort between publishers and the educational community to improve the quality and accuracy of information provided to all involved in a student's transition into higher education, as well as to reduce the burden on colleges of compiling and reporting information. Questions and definitions used by the U.S. Department of Education in its college surveys are a guide in the development of CDS items. Common Data Set items undergo broad review by secondary schools and two-and four-year colleges." **</p>
<p>Frankly, if the CDS is good enough for Stanford, it's good enough for U Miami. What are they hiding?</p>
<p>The dollars on that sheet reflect a mature med school. Curiously, they are not at all far apart, even with FSU's new medical education system.</p>
<p>The dollars on that sheet def reflect a mature medical school. Medecine is one of the most vital elements of research and development. Neveretheless the research dosnt ONLY reflect medecine. That report is based off of the total research funding. </p>
<p>Their not hiding anything. College Board which produces the CDS publishes stats for them. They have publicly released everything. As I said, they have publicly answered every question the CDS asks. as to what they are hiding from the public, good question. I was able to find last August every stat I wanted to get an idea of my chances. Again Everything the CDS asks can be found on their website and furthermore in Collegeboard's website which releases the Common Data Sets surveys to schools every year and the stats u see there are identical to the stats a school publishes on their CDS.
If they would be supposedly not credible they would list n/a under many of their stats as they have done with other schools.
accusing UM of lying is a serious accusation and u should really research before accusing them of lying. A CDS isnt sufficient evidence.
Stanford said many things but never said that not releasing one means ur institution is a liar nor that it indicates the credability of the school.
Mayby they do post a CDS because College board posts info on them as well. eitherway not every school publicly releases a CDS and that dosnt mean their liars.</p>
<p>No one is saying they are lying. However, they are not forthcoming. There is a huge difference between the two. Since any student at UMiami will spend many dollars for an education there, they should be fully informed as a consumer. The CDS is but one measure in the steps a university should take to be credible.</p>
<p>Instead of offering justifications and other "the dog ate my CDS" excuses for this university you might want to direct those questions to the UMiami administration and demand accountability. It will help you and them in the long run.</p>
<p>One thing I may add? A professor recently told my class "An FSU Degree in a couple of years will decline in value when compared to a UF or UM Degree." Basically, FSU is loosing its academic reputation, if it ever had one. Let's see who will get the internship at the British Embassy, Political Science student from UM or from FSU... right.</p>
<p>"One thing I may add? A professor recently told my class "An FSU Degree in a couple of years will decline in value when compared to a UF or UM Degree." Basically, FSU is loosing its academic reputation, if it ever had one. Let's see who will get the internship at the British Embassy, Political Science student from UM or from FSU... right."</p>
<p>Let me take a wild guess, your "professor" graduated from UF or UM. Both of my FSU degrees have served me VERY well. Tell your professor to get in touch with me if he needs a better job, we're always looking for new talent.</p>
<p>As much as I dislike FSU, it's still a very good school. Your FSU degree is worth 'plenty'.</p>
<p>An excerpt from US News - the latest available rankings:</p>
<p>Political Science (Ph.D.)
Ranked in 2005*</p>
<p>Rank/School Average assessment
score (5.0 = highest)</p>
<ol>
<li> Florida State University 3.0
Johns Hopkins University (MD) 3.0
University of Arizona 3.0
University of Virginia 3.0</li>
<li> Georgetown University (DC) 2.9
George Washington University (DC) 2.9
Rutgers State University–New Brunswick (NJ) 2.9
University of Notre Dame (IN) 2.9
University of Pittsburgh 2.9</li>
<li> Brown University (RI) 2.8
University of Colorado–Boulder 2.8</li>
<li> Arizona State University 2.6
Claremont Graduate School (CA) 2.6
Syracuse University (NY) 2.6
University of California–Santa Barbara 2.6
University of Florida 2.6
Vanderbilt University (TN) 2.6</li>
<li> University of Georgia 2.5
University of Kansas 2.5
University of South Carolina–Columbia 2.5
University of Southern California 2.5
University of Wisconsin–Milwaukee 2.5</li>
</ol>
<p>Something you might ask anyone suggesting one major state university (like FSU, UF or whatever) is tanking is what are their motivations? What could they gain by trashing a particular school?</p>
<p>Maybe your professor was not admitted to FSU, maybe an academic paper was criticized by faculty at FSU or even his kids were not admitted. Lots of reasons can cause such statements.</p>